The Instigator
FaustThe21st
Pro (for)
The Contender
Overhead
Con (against)

The wage gap between men and women does not exist in America

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/17/2017 Category: People
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 578 times Debate No: 101113
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (8)
Votes (0)

 

FaustThe21st

Pro

By accepting this debate, you realize that-

1. This is a controversial topic, relax and let's have a nice debate

2. I will be arguing that "The wage gap between men and women does not exist in America"

3. BIASED and UNRELIABLE sources are not allowed (philosophy, statistics, logic, and everything else is allowed.)

4. Clearly label parts of your debate speech so your points are understandable.

5. Finally, just so we both know what we are getting into, your first post or argument would be accepting these terms and the stance that you have chosen.

Thank you for your time,

- Faust
Overhead

Con

I accept the debate and conditions set out.
Debate Round No. 1
FaustThe21st

Pro

Intro -

Thank you to my opponent for taking time to argue with me about this topic

Clearifications -

Wage Gap - The issue brought up that women are paid less for the same job as a result of sexism and is supported by the status quo

Resolution -

The wage gap between men and women does not exist in America

Stance -

Pro

Point 1 -

The statistics supporting the so called Wage gap don't account for many factors.

Starting off, many of the statistics "proving" that the wage gap exists don't account for the fact that women often work for less hours and decide to leave work for family reasons such as maternal leave. This means that it's that women are paid less, but it is that they choose to work less. Thus if we take a man and woman that work in the same job for the same hours, we would see that they are paid the same.

"Many fewer women than men said they would be willing to take a job with trade-offs that might significantly affect their lives: moving to a different city, commuting more than an hour each way, or working nontraditional hours. Notably, women with children at home account for many of the differences. Women without children often have attitudes about unemployment that are more similar to men’s, the poll shows."


https://www.nytimes.com...;

Given these facts, the wage gap doesn't exist because women and men would be paid the same in the same job or field if they worked for the same amount of time.

Point 2 -

The Wage gap doesn't exist in America, because it is illegal to pay women less than men under U.S law.


The Equal Pay Act of 1963 made it illegal to pay women less than men for the same job, thus the wage gap does not exist in America because it breaks the law.

"The Equal Pay Act requires that men and women be given equal pay for equal work in the same establishment. The jobs need not be identical, but they must be substantially equal. It is job content, not job titles, that determines whether jobs are substantially equal. Specifically, the EPA provides that employers may not pay unequal wages to men and women who perform jobs that require substantially equal skill, effort and responsibility, and that are performed under similar working conditions within the same establishment."

https://www.eeoc.gov...;

However, I am willing to acknowledge that just because something is illegal doesn't mean it won't happen. An example of that, is drugs. Fortunately, this illegal wage gap can't happen because the government keeps constant data on businesses. This data can range from income, money spent, and employee wages. Thus if illegal wages were given out authorities and the government would know about it. (They learn about how much you make through things such as tax returns and income taxes.)

Conclusion -

In summary, the Wage gap between men and women doesn't exist in America, because there is no realiable data supporting it, and it is illegal under U.S law.







Overhead

Con

Point 1 - Pro Concedes

A major one and the most significant, Pro concedes the argument.

The topic of the debate is "The wage gap between men and women does not exist in America". As per R1 Pro will be arguing that "The wage gap between men and women does not exist in America". In R2 he makes the resolution "The wage gap between men and women does not exist in America".

In his first point he then concedes that the wage gap does exist:"This means that it's that women are paid less, but it is that they choose to work less."

The gives a rational for why the wage gap between men and women exists that I disagree with (because they choose to), but he concedes it exists.

In light of this I don't think there is much point continuing as I think Pro wants to argue a different topic from the one he three times stated was the topic under debate.

I'd suggest he concedes the remaining rounds and remakes a new topic entitled "The Gender Wage Gap is not due to discrimination" or similar seeing as that seems to be what he is trying to argue for. I'll even be happy to take the opposing side again. However the topic he is trying to argue here is very much not the one he has listed three seperate times and which he has already conceded.

I'll make a preliminary response on a few of other points pending his response.

Point 2 - Statistics supported the wage gap DO account for many factors

It is very odd that Pro claims 'many of the statistics "proving" that the wage gap exists don't account for the fact that women often work for less hours and decide to leave work for family reasons such as maternal leave'. Trying to account for other variables is a basic proecedure in scientific study. How could all these experts in their field have missed this very basic and very fundamental point?

The answer is they didn't.

Take http://www.aauw.org... example, which states "But even after researchers controlled for age, education, hours worked beyond full time, industry sector, marital status, and presence of children in the household, female managers still earned just 81 percent of what male managers did, leaving an unexplained 19 percent pay gap (U.S. Government Accountability Office, 2010)."

Or the other approach, the studies where this isn't a factor due to the way they investigate the issue. In http://www.nber.org... instance, it looks at the difference blind auditions made in orchestras - when the hirers made their decisions just based on the performance without being able to see the performer. Strange how after blind auditions were instituted, women getting the job shot right up!

The research into the gender wage gap which has been carried out does take into account the points he raised and still show a gender wage gap exists, albeit smaller than if you don't take them into account.

Point 3 - "Other reasons" isn't the same as not due to discrimination

As https://www.infona.pl..., the points that Pro tries to explain away are themselves rooted in discrimination to a good degree. Pro for instance mentions "Notably, women with children at home account for many of the differences. Women without children often have attitudes about unemployment that are more similar to men’s, the poll shows."

There is a societalwide bias in the USA that stereotypes women as the primary caregivers to children and pushes women into this roll. Despite being better than it was 50 years ago, the house husband is still a rare thing.

This gender stereotyped roles are a form of gender discrimination which cause the very effects Pro talks about in his point 1.

Also please note in the abstract "There is a continuing debate as to the extent to which the gap reflects merely the inevitable and reasonably fair result of differing work patterns and behaviors by women and men or the impact of employment discrimination against women. The human capital approach, in which various explanatory variables are used to shrink the perceived size of the gap, is often used to argue that much of the gap is due, not to discrimination, but to differing investments in employment by women and men." which provides further evidence towards my point 2 that the factors Pro claims are ignored are actually looked into regularly.

Point 4 - Pro's Complete Lack of Evidence

In his first point Pro claims the claim that studies into the wage gap do not account for women having different job preferences. Although he provides evidence that women have different job preferences (which hardly needs evidencing), he provides nothing to show that studies into the gender wage gap do not take this into account which is the actual pertinent part of his point that needs backing up.

Likewise in point two he claims that wage inequality is illegal in the USA which he backs up. However he then concedes this is irrelevent and what matters is that the authorities and the government would know about "illegal wages". He provides no evidence for how the government and authorities know about all illegal wages.

Pro hasn't actually backed up the relevant parts of his argument with any logic or evidence. His claims must therefore be considered empty until he backs them up.

Point 5 - The government and authorities obviously do not automatically know about "illegal wages" that are given out

Pro claims "if illegal wages were given out authorities and the government would know about it."

Therefore by his argument there should bee no illigal immigrants working in the USA and no embezzlement that isn't caught.

I doubt anyone buys into this, so his argument can be disregarded.
Debate Round No. 2
FaustThe21st

Pro

Background - To clarify, I will first be defending my own case, and then attacking my opponent's case.

Defense 1 -

I didn't concede the arguement, and I clarified the definitions in my first round response, and the comments.

Here is what I wrote in quotations

" Clearifications -

Wage Gap - The issue brought up that women are paid less for the same job as a result of sexism and is supported by the status quo"


Even if my opponent had no background information as to what I meant, (which he probably did because when the wage gap is discussed, the main issue that is brought up regarding it, is sexism.) I clearly laid out what the debate was over in the R1 posting

And even when using a website that he uses for his sources, they make it clear that this is an issue about sexism.

"You’ve probably heard that men are paid more than women are paid over their lifetimes. But what does that mean? Are women paid less because they choose lower-paying jobs? Is it because more women work part time than men do? Or is it because women have more caregiving responsibilities? And what, exactly, does gender bias have to do with paychecks?"

http://www.aauw.org...;

Notice how all of the questions besides the last one use "Is it" but the last one reads as follows, "And what, exactly, does gender bias have to do with paychecks?" Here word choice is key, that last question makes the issue about gender inequality.

Furthermore, when many experts and economists talk about the wage gap they clearly mention the hysteria of gender inequality in America when they talk about it.

Thus, I haven't misrepresented the debate resolution as my oponnent would like you to believe by misrepresenting what I say, and by pretending as if he does not know what I am reffering to.

Moving on, my opponent says that I conceded the arguement when I said, "This means that it's not that women are paid less, but it is that they choose to work less." However, my opponent disregards the very next sentence where I said, "Thus if we take a man and woman that work in the same job for the same hours, we would see that they are paid the same." What I said here actually strengthens my case as it debunks the main part of the wage gap myth : sexism. Furthermore, what I said in the second sentence disproves the wage gap, as I said that women and men in the same job who work for the same hours get the same amount of money.

Therefore, I did not concede my arguement, (as my opponent would like you to believe), but I strengthened my case.


Defense 2 -

My opponent says I lack the sources, but I provide more sources than they do.

To attack my points (which by the way are common knowledge), he says that I don't provide enough evidence.

However, I provide -

Examples
Government Policy and Law (I talked about how taxes work, which inform the government of how much people are paid) (Equal Pay Act)
And Credible Websites (Which are working links)

https://www.nytimes.com......;
https://www.eeoc.gov......;

To provide further info to satisfy my opponent, here is a proffessor talking about the gender wage gap and how the statistics provided by supporters of the wage gap myth are flawed.

https://www.youtube.com...;

https://www.youtube.com...;

She talks about the wage gap excactly like I do, connected to sexism. The wage gap has become synonymous with sexism, and if that sexism doesn't exist, then the wage gap doesn't either.

Defense 3 -

My opponent claims that I say that the Equal Pay Act is irrelevant, he is misquoting me.

My opponent claims that I said the equal pay act is irrelevant, but I didn't, I simply said that just because there is a law in place doesn't mean that it can't happen. HOWEVER, I did say that the government can moniter how much people are paid, and because of this the wage gap can't happen.

My opponent continues to say that because illegal immigration happens that the wage gap can happen, too.

However, illegal immigration doesn't deal with AMERICAN citizens, and because of that illegal work in that regard is allowed to happen, because the government takes priority to things concerning AMERICAN citizens, that is why the wage gap for AMERICAN women is not happening where ILLEGAL MIGRANT WORK IS! (The government in AMERICA takes AMERICAN PEOPLE AND LEGAL MIGRANTS INTO PRIORITY) This is not only seen with our President-Elect, but is simply common sense because there are too many illegal immigrants to deal with and not enough information about them, as they are illegal.

IN CONTRAST, AMERICAN WOMEN CAN BE HELPED AS THERE IS INFORMATION REGARDING THEM, UNLIKE ILLEGAL MIGRANTS.

Therefore, my point about the gender wage gap not existing as it is illegal still stands.


My opponent also says that I provided no evidence as to how the government knows how much you get paid.

I stated that they look at your income through your income taxes, but if a 29 year old who should be paying taxes right know (cause if you don't its tax evasion) doesn't believe me, take it from the government itself.

"We have a progressive income tax structure in the U.S. For example, for the 2012 tax year, single filers paid a 10 percent federal income tax on the first $8,700 of taxable income. The next bracket – from $8,701 to $35,350 is taxed at a 15 percent tax rate. So, if your daughter will have a taxable income of $30,000, the first $8,700 would be taxed at 10 percent, and the remaining $21,300 would be taxed at 15 percent under the 2012 tax rate schedule."

https://www.consumerfinance.gov...;

As you can see, my opponents claims about my second point are completely false, as the government has an idea of how much people are paid.

Defense Conclusion -

In conclusion, I protected my case as I -

- Did not concede, and proved that I did not concede. (As my opponent is misquoting me, and witholding important follow up info)

- Have credible sources

- Answered all of the questions my opponent had on my case

- MOST IMPORTANTLY I DID NOT misrepresent the resolution of this debate, as I have shown you that I laid out clearifications in my first speech.

All of this proves that my opponent's attacks on my case are unfounded and a misrepresentation of what I said.


Attacks

- Moving on to attacks, my opponent only focused on attacking my case, and not building his own. He only has one point building his case, and 3 attacks on mine which I have debunked.

- Furthermore, the sources he entails are all NONEXISTANT WHEN YOU CLICK ON THE LINK PROVIDED. If I can't see the article, then it counts as an unrealiable source. Even if I could see said articles, the main source he provided, www.aauw.org , is constently attacked by proffessors and economists alike, here is proof of said attacks https://www.youtube.com...;.
Continuing my attack on his sources, go to www.aauw.org , and see how often they tell which economist they got their information from. Because the article from them I read showcased a statistic with no real backbone to it.

- Finally, I will debunk the gender stereotype myth. If women were pressured to be more maternal as my opponent says, then how come women are more likely to graduate from college than men. This would not happen if we lived in a patriarchial society.


"Last year, 29.9% of men had a bachelor's degree, while 30.2% of women did, the bureau reports. A decade prior, in 2005, 28.5% of men had bachelor's degree, while only 26% of women did. Young women are driving the change. In the 25-34 age group, 37.5% of women have a bachelor's degree or higher, while only 29.5% of men do. (Rates of college attainment for men and women in this age group are increasing roughly equally.) But for the over-65 crowd, only 20.3% of women have such degrees, compared to 30.6% of men."



http://time.com...;

In America, the subject of this debate, more women go to college than men, where is the proof of the stigma my opponent is talking about? More women are encouraged to go to college, if we lived in a sexist society like my opponent claims, this would not happen.

My opponent's inadequate proof, means that they who are questioning the status quo, and saying that it is flawd do not provide their burden of proof, and therefore should lose the debate.


Summary

In summary, I defended my case effectively with credible sources, and I added more sources as well. Also, I attacked my opponents unviewable sources, which have been attacked and labeled as feminist propaganda by scholars, and therefore are debunked. Finally, I was able to debunk the gender stereotype myth my opponent used to defend his case, leaving him with nothing to defend his case with. For all those reasons, I humbly request a vote for pro, and thus a vote for debunking a myth which has drained America's time for many years.

Thank you to the audience and my opponent for your time.

Sincerely Faust








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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 5
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by FaustThe21st 1 year ago
FaustThe21st
One of my sources seems to have been bugging, so here it is.

http://time.com...
Posted by FaustThe21st 1 year ago
FaustThe21st
Response to - Capitalistslave tejretics

I thought that when talking about the wage gap, that sexism was the main issue. I am sorry about any misunderstanding.
Posted by FaustThe21st 1 year ago
FaustThe21st
Response to dsjpk5 - No, I don't consider the Department of Labor biased, my criteria goes on all my debates so I inform people on what I want or expect from their response. I want people to know what they are getting into, so that there will be intellectual discussion between the two opposing parties.
Posted by FaustThe21st 1 year ago
FaustThe21st
Thank you to all that participated in discussion and are following the debate.
Posted by dsjpk5 1 year ago
dsjpk5
Would you consider Department of Labor statistics biased?
Posted by RC-9282 1 year ago
RC-9282
I would take the comment before this into consideration. While I understand what you are saying, I believe it exists, but not on the basis of sexism or inequality. Women just make different choices.
Posted by tejretics 1 year ago
tejretics
Do you mean the wage gap "does not exist" or that "it is not caused by sexism"?

In terms of the former, that's not really debatable. It exists. The question is whether it is entirely determined by things like lifestyle choices, or if sexism plays a role.
Posted by Capitalistslave 1 year ago
Capitalistslave
How are we defining wage gap?
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