The Instigator
Youngastronomer
Pro (for)
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0 Points
The Contender
David12N
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

The west doesn't need feminism, it needs to move

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/25/2017 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 511 times Debate No: 101378
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (3)
Votes (0)

 

Youngastronomer

Pro

Feminism needs to move to another country, maybe middle east, maybe any other 3rd world country.

Pro will argue it's true
Con will argue it's false

Rounds
1) Acceptance
2) Opinion
3) Rebuttals
4) Defense

Rules
1) No trolling
2) No raging
3) No ad hominem
4) No profanity
5) No forfeiting
6) Use Sources
7) Use Evidence

Good luck with the debate.
David12N

Con

Thanks for the opportunity to debate.

I assume the argument is that we don't need feminism because equality, etc has been reached and there is a far greater need for advocacy for women in other countries.

When we talk about feminism, I am thinking about it in terms of campaigning for women's rights.

I would argue that it is still needed in the West {as well as elsewhere}. As well as the more well known issue of a pay gap there is a promotion gap. https://www.businessinsider.com.au...

There is the issue of domestic violence and how female victims continue to be treated. https://overland.org.au...

Yes, it possible that men can {and do campaign on these issues too} and that women that don't call themselves feminist can also help address these issues. I would argue that having more not less people campaigning to address these issues is a good thing. Therefore, it would be good for some feminists to stay active in the West.

A strong feminist movement in the West can also help people elsewhere. This is a list containing some Western based women"s groups that through the funding they receive in the West can support those overseas http://www.nytimes.com...

There is also the serious issue of sexual assaults against women and the backward views held by men {and some cases women} that come up in court and elsewhere.

I do agree however that there should be a greater focus on the plight of women in other countries like widows and women in Saudi Arabia, etc. I just don't think all feminists should move because there is still issues here that need to be addressed.
Debate Round No. 1
Youngastronomer

Pro

The pay and promotion gap is not very true considering men generally work more, doing the heavy lifting, in the police work

https://gyazo.com...
Women are more likely to receive sexual assaults but men are more likely to be either beaten, robbed or even shot dead

Men also tend to commit suicide more as stats have shown

Men are raped in prison
Approximately 216,000 prisoners are raped per year in the U.S., compared to about 90,000 reported rapes outside prison

While feminists still speak of equality, they never complain about this problem (3rd wave feminism), instead focusing on the women problems

Feminists also never seem to speak about the "never hit a woman" being a problem rather than a good thing, this meant that girls smack, push and tease boys in school and can just say "you can't hit me back, I'm a girl" and if they do the boy will get suspended or detention while the girl goes off scot free.

{1} http://thoughtcatalog.com...

{2} http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

{3} http://prisonwriters.com...

{4} https://www.hrw.org...

{5} http://www.theapricity.com...
David12N

Con

I would point out that the claim that men work more than women is not true. At least according to some of the facts and figures out there. For example, http://time.com...

I agree that men are also victims of crime and in bigger numbers. This is not an argument against feminism though. Could it not just be arguing that as well as feminism other groups need to campaign or feminism needs to expand what it focuses on, etc.

The school situation may vary. Girls have been suspended as well for violence.
Debate Round No. 2
Youngastronomer

Pro

While it does happen, the employer can get sued if they are paid unequally based on sexism
http://fortune.com...

You say that men being in more crimes is not an argument against feminism, it actually is because feminism always claims that men are privileged and free compared to women
David12N

Con

It would be good if people did get sued for that but that does not always happen.

According to the Guardian, there is not a country in the world where women get paid the same as men. {I am assuming they mean on average}. There are several reasons for the pay gap and it can be hard to just prove a specific law has been breached. For example, when men and women first join a law firm and the company decides on pay the woman usually gets less. When a alot of women join an industry the pay for everyone goes down. That is not discrimination {in a legal sense}. It is their work being valued less. https://www.theguardian.com...

There might be times when people believe that a particular group of people are privileged. And of course, as you point out that is not always true. There are plenty of men that do not do well in life. This does not mean that there are men that don't get an advantage because they are men. For example, men could vote before women could. There is still discrimination against women, etc.

I would argue though that feminism holds different views on the status of men. Therefore, not every feminists believes that it is as simple as men being privileged. For example, "all people are both privileged and non-privileged in certain aspects of their life. Furthermore, since dynamics of social status are highly dependent on situation, a person can benefit from privilege in one situation while not benefiting from it in another.".
https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com...
Debate Round No. 3
Youngastronomer

Pro

They do mean on average since men generally work longer while women generally look after the kids and men get the bigger jobs. My opponent says that men could vote before women even though this is the present, today they're fine although they were mistreated decades or even centuries ago. Ever heard of the Equal Pay Act of 1963? It's illegal to pay less without a valid reason. As I said earlier, you CAN sue your employer If he pays less because of discrimination.

This woman describes why we don't need feminism, I'll mention some of her words, the rest is in

"America has the most free and liberated women in the world. We have more opportunities than ever before thanks to the original feminist movement. Today"s feminists claim to be strong and independent women but instead they play the victim in order to push their agenda."

"One of the major arguments of the current feminist movement is that women make 78 cents to every dollar a man earns. Experts have proven this to be misleading and simply untrue. This claim does not take into account occupation, experience, hours worked, education, and many other variables that factor into wage."

"According to the feminist theory class that every school seems to offer nowadays, this is because women are pressured by sexist stereotypes. They will tell you that women"s choices truly aren"t free. This is also false."

"When a woman claims that she wants a family more than a career, she is laughed at and shunned by these so-called "women warriors."

- Shannon Golden

Sources:
{1} http://futurefemaleleader.com...

{2} https://m.youtube.com...

{3} https://m.youtube.com...
David12N

Con

Thank you for the debate.

There seems to be a general misunderstanding about how the pay differences occur. It is not simply the boss says Larry gets $20 an hour and Tina gets $10 an hour. It is more complex than that. The base salary for example can be negotiated. And it is legal. It just so happens that women tend to get paid less of a base salary than men. When the women ask for more, studies {and there are studies] show they are viewed negatively for asking for a higher starting base salary. If a man asks for more, he is usually viewed in a positive way. http://www.news.com.au...

This is one of the ways that the pay gap occurs. As pointed out in my previous response, when women join an industry in huge numbers, the pay of everyone goes down. That is legal and it is linked to gender.

There is also the issue of blind resumes. Studies have shown that when the name is removed from the resume {so one can't tell if the name indicates a woman or that the person is likely not to be white} those people are more likely to get called in for an interview. Actually the same resume, the only difference is that one is a man and one is a woman and the man will get called in more. This link is specific to science but it exists in other sectors. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...

I would remind people that there is also a promotional gap in every single industry even where there are far more women.
I would also note that there are in fact studies that do factor in women taking time off work {post the recovery time} to have children, etc. {I would also point out that the fact that women are the ones that usually take extended time off and not the men is viewed by some as a gender issue as well. Yes, women do need time to recover after birth but women are the ones that usually stay home to look after the kids over the long-term. This is viewed as a gender bias by some. Why is it assumed that the woman should have to stay home because it is viewed as a woman's job. This impacts her ability to work outside of the house.

I would point out that the link included in my previous response includes studies that a} show women being paid less than men for the same job, despite the law. B} The fact that some men work more hours has actually been taken into account but the studies still find a pay gap. If a person wants to believe there is no gap that is one thing but if a person claims that there are no studies showing that there is a gap that is simply not true.

I do agree that women who choose to stay home or quit their jobs for their family can be criticised by some feminists. And I do think that is unfair.

What I am curious to know is why there is such a resistance to accepting what studies do show? There is gap and there is still big discrimination. I would love to know why some {not all} men refuse to accept there is a gap? The problems facing men and women like poverty and unemployment are not caused because of feminism for the record.

I would also point out that the claim she made about American women being the most free and liberated in the world can be seriously questioned. The abortion debates would show otherwise. The lower level of women in higher positions compared to some other countries. The lower social mobility in America {for both men and women} is lower than some other countries. Therefore, I would disagree with the claim that women in the US are the most free and liberated.
Debate Round No. 4
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Youngastronomer 1 year ago
Youngastronomer
Their goal is complete
Posted by Youngastronomer 1 year ago
Youngastronomer
@Cece

We don't need feminism because women already have plenty of rights and privileges.
Posted by cece_monsoon 1 year ago
cece_monsoon
Pro isn't really trying to debate whether the west needs feminism. They're instead using this as an opportunity to talk about men's issues. Please stay on topic.
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