The world of generation 1 Pokemon has recently gone through a massive war.
Debate Rounds (4)
I accept. Good luck
Lt. Surge's Quote:
Before the player character faces Lt. Surge in a gym battle, he shouts "Hey kid! What do you think you're doing here? You won't live long in combat! That's for sure! I tell you what kid, electric Pok"mon saved me during the war!". This statement flatly acknowledges that there was a recent war, and that Lt. Surge is a veteran of the aforementioned war.
The Missing Population:
The majority of the people you encounter throughout gen 1 are all children, elderly, or in crime. This supports the idea that a massive war had taken place, as a large war would have forced the Kanto government to draft all able bodied citizens to assist in wartime, as children and the elderly are not able to fight in combat, and criminals would have resisted drafting efforts. This is why your and your rival's father is not present throughout the game.
In almost every city in the game, there is a hospital, a training facility, and no entertainment related buildings. This is because when a nation faces a massive threat, they will try to focus all of their resources on the military required buildings (like a military training facility and hospitals), and strip away funding from unnecessary projects (like entertainment related buildings). The fact that only certain buildings are present throughout Kanto cities supports the idea of a massive war.
"Before the player character faces Lt. Surge in a gym battle, he shouts "Hey kid! What do you think you're doing here? You won't live long in combat! That's for sure! I tell you what kid, electric Pokémon saved me during the war!". This statement flatly acknowledges that there was a recent war, and that Lt. Surge is a veteran of the aforementioned war."
Lt. Surge's description is "The Lightning American", meaning is at the very least an American citizen. Moreover, his typical outfit is very reminiscent of an American camouflage uniform, which means he at some point had served in the US military. Comparison is here (pay close attention to the pants):
This means that it is entirely possible that the war that Surge is referring to is one of the major wars America was involved in, such as the Vietnam or Korean war. And since America or some form of it exists in the Pokémon universe as proven by Surge's description, it is also possible that the America in this universe has Pokémon, among which are the electric Pokémon that Surge is referring to in his quote. Or, it is entirely possible that the war he is referring to happened a rather long time ago, as he never says that the war he is talking about happened recently. For example, some old war veterans still refer to WW2 as "the war". Same with the Vietnam and Korean War. However, none of those wars are even close to recent, and as such the war Surge is referring to does not have to be recent either.
Surge is also not a very young man. His age is never officially given, but after some searching I have found that at least according to the anime he is in his early thirties. Meaning that the war could have happened at least 10 years in the past and he would still be within recruitment age, and 10 years is definitely not recent. Here is the website for his age:
"The majority of the people you encounter throughout Gen 1 are all children, elderly, or in crime. This supports the idea that a massive war had taken place, as a large war would have forced the Kanto government to draft all able bodied citizens to assist in wartime, as children and the elderly are not able to fight in combat, and criminals would have resisted drafting efforts. This is why your and your rival's father is not present throughout the game."
Middle aged men are actually rather commonplace in Kanto. Because ages are unknown, we can only really go by appearance, but for this debate that will have to be good enough. All the hikers in the game are middle aged, and hikers are rather common (and incredibly annoying). All biker gang members certainly look very middle aged. All the scientists in Oak's lab also look rather middle aged. The move deleter looks middle aged. Mr Psychic from Saffron city is definitely middle aged (he's balding in FireRed/LeafGreen, and has a sort of stubble in RBY). All fisherman look middle aged. Koga, Bruno, and Lance are all also probably around the late thirties to early forties (hell, Koga has a preteen/teenage daughter). The list goes on. The fact remains that middle aged people are really not that uncommon. You just see young children more often simply because middle aged people have better things to do than sit around in grass all day and wait for unsuspecting trainers.
But even if there were literally no middle aged people in Kanto, this still wouldn't prove anything because no country in at least our world history has ever mainly targeted middle aged men for army recruitment. The main targets are typically teenagers to young men, as these people are the most impulsive, physically fit, and gullible demographic of people, and are thus perfect candidates for soldiers. Think WW1, WW2, Mao's Culture Revolution, the Bolshevik Revolution, etc. All of these conflicts had a very high number of young men serving, not middle aged men who are likely to develop a hernia while attempting to slip into a trench.
Besides, if the war really was as massive as my opponent makes it seem, no country in the right mind would exclusively hire men for the war effort. There would be factories everywhere, with women, if not on the front lines, working in those factories. War production or remnants of it would be everywhere in the form of military bases, drafting posts, factories, training facilities, army outposts, airfields, etc. But we see none of that in Kanto at all, in fact, Kanto's layout is really quite benign, with absolutely no sign whatsoever of any sort of military production or encampments.
"In almost every city in the game, there is a hospital, a training facility, and no entertainment related buildings. This is because when a nation faces a massive threat, they will try to focus all of their resources on the military required buildings (like a military training facility and hospitals), and strip away funding from unnecessary projects (like entertainment related buildings). The fact that only certain buildings are present throughout Kanto cities supports the idea of a massive war."
This is really an issue of game development, as putting a bunch of movie theaters and race tracks and sports fields all over the place would be really over the top for a Pokémon game. However, even if that were irrelevant, there is still one major source of entertainment in the Pokémon universe, which is also one of the most infuriating: The Game Corner. The Game Corner is really quite lavish, and even has a completely separate building where people can claim prizes. And these prizes are some of the most valuable things ever to exist in Pokémon, as the TM provided there are sold nowhere else in the game and the Pokémon sold there are either incredibly rare or do not exist anywhere else. This shows that an immense amount of money is going into this gambling facility, certainly not a sign of a recent war, at least not one as expensive as my opponent makes it seem.
There is also a rather expensive looking museum in Pewter City, the Pewter Museum of Science. This would have most likely been closed down a while ago if the war was happening, and even if the war was already over because war reparations still need to be paid.
Overall, there is really no evidence for any sort of war. If we look at all the available regions up to now, none of them show any signs of conflict whatsoever, that is, bombed buildings, rubble, charring, craters, etc. All of them look rather peaceful in fact, which is really uncharacteristic of war. It is possible that Kanto went to war with some unreleased region, but until that unreleased region is revealed, we cannot assume that it exists.
Some pictures of the various middle aged dudes I was talking about earlier
Con brings up the fact that Lt. Surge was born in America, which after researching, I have found to be true. This does not necessarily mean that the war he was referring to with his quote is an American war. Many European immigrants into America fought in significant American wars (such as the civil war, WWI, and WWII for example), so it is logical to believe that American immigrants into Kanto would fight in Kanto wars (such as the one we are discussing). This would also explain Lt. Surge's nickname, "The Lightning American". I doubt that an American soldier in the American military would stand out enough to earn a nickname for being American. More likely, he would stand out as being an American in the Kanto military, and thus get a nickname for it. The fact that the war took place 11 years ago would make Lt. Surge a 19-23 year man around the end of the war (assuming that your statement about his age is correct), and this is optimal military age.
Con brings up the fact that you actually do come across many middle aged people throughout Kanto, but this middle aged population of Kanto, although existent, is skewed. Using this website as my guide (http://factfinder.census.gov...), I compared the age populations of Kanto to that of the USA. I chose the USA to compare it too for a few reasons, but the most important of which is that the USA age population has not recently been significantly skewed by any disease, war, or other disaster. Using the USA as a control, we can see how the populations of Kanto compare to that of a relatively normal nation.
USA child population: 41,221,045, or 13%
USA middle aged population(I defined middle aged as 30-59):126,679,041, or 40%
Looking at this, it is easy to see that the population of Kanto is skewed, as although the middle aged population could be argued to come close to 40% of all encounters seen, the amount of children you encounter is FAR higher then 13% of the entirety, so therefore, the population of Kanto is skewed.
Con brings up the point that a likely reason that there are not many entertainment facilities is due to developmental reasons, but this is irrelevant, as we are treating Kanto as essentially a real place for the sake of debate.
Con brings up the Game Corner as an example of the entertainment facility in Kanto. It is not unusual that a casino will survive during wartime, as the depression that war can cause will cause many people to flock to establishments such as these in the hopes of easing the sadness. The fact that one casino remains in operation does not disprove the idea of economic focus during war. There are 7 cities, 2 towns, and the charred husk of an old town in the region of Kanto. The fact that 1/9 of Kanto settlements possesses one entertainment facility is not evidence of the success of the entertainment industry.
Con brings up the absence of bombed or destroyed structures, but this is irrelevant, considering the fact that the relatively simple engineering throughout Kanto could easily be repaired within 11 years.
Con also brings up the absence of war evidence on other regions, but this is unimportant, as we can see that America's existence is canon in the generation 1 Pokemon universe, as if it was not, how could Lt. Surge be from there? Logically, if America can exist in the canon of Pokemon, why can't many other nations, such as Japan, Vietnam, Germany, etc. The fact that there is no evidence of war on other regions is irrelevant, as there are many nations with which Kanto could have been at war with.
"First of all, I would like to clarify that I did not mean that this war had just ended within the last few months or any time as short as that. I had meant that the player character's generation(11 year old) is the first generation to be born in peace time, as in, the war was at least 11 years ago(for the sake of argument, lets assume that it was 11 years ago)."
Fair enough. 11 years is hardly recent, but fine.
"This would also explain Lt. Surge's nickname, "The Lightning American". I doubt that an American soldier in the American military would stand out enough to earn a nickname for being American. More likely, he would stand out as being an American in the Kanto military, and thus get a nickname for it. The fact that the war took place 11 years ago would make Lt. Surge a 19-23 year man around the end of the war (assuming that your statement about his age is correct), and this is optimal military age."
Unfortunately, for this statement to be true, my opponent would have to prove that Surge got his nickname from his time in war. It is entirely possible that he got his nickname from his owning an electric gym, and because he happens to be American, he was called by trainers, not other soldiers, as the the "Lightning American". There is no proof that Surge has ever served in the Kanto military, in fact, the war he refers to in his quote could easily be Vietnam or Korea, since Pokémon Red, Blue, and Yellow were developed around the Cold War time period.
"Using this website as my guide (http://factfinder.census.gov......), I ......the population of Kanto is skewed."
The link is unfortunately broken so I could not verify your source. So instead I did my own research. But first, the US is an extremely rich country, and a common phenomenon among rich countries is that they have a smaller children to adult ratio than poorer countries do. Since we do not know whether Kanto is a rich country or not, using the US is not exactly fair, especially since it is the richest country in the world at this point. Second, as I did my own research, I found that as of 2014, 26.1% of the US population was in between ages 0-17, not, as my opponent claims, 13%. I could not find a "middle age" demographic, as the websites I went to could not agree on what "middle age" was. However, I must point out that the child population in the US is substantially larger than what my opponent has claimed it to be. Third, as I have pointed out in my previous argument, middle aged guys have better things to do than standing around in tall grass all day and waiting for the occasional unsuspecting trainer, most namely, going to work. Because the age demographic of Kanto is unknown, we cannot know the child to middle age ratio for sure, but determining it based on how many you see while going on your Pokémon adventure is unfair. If you were to walk down a city parkway during the summer, you would see substantially more women and children than you would see adults. Why? Because most of the men are working. Saying that you cannot see the middle aged population and therefore it is non-existent is entirely unfair.
"Con brings up the Game Corner as an example of the entertainment facility in Kanto. It is not unusual .....fact that 1/9 of Kanto settlements possesses one entertainment facility is not evidence of the success of the entertainment industry."
Since my opponent has said earlier that the war he is referring to happened about 11 years in the past, I can just as well say that 11 years is more than enough time for the entertainment industry to get back up on its feet. Since it hasn't really, I can say that Kanto is either in some sort of economic crisis or just doesn't care that much about entertainment for such an industry to be profitable. And before you say the war could have caused the economic crisis, pause for a minute, and realize how good war is for an economy. Heavy industry, low unemployment rates, mass production, flourishing consumerism, etc., are all things that are awesome for an economy and are also things that happen to come with war. Think WW1 and WW2. WW1 led to 10 years of economic prosperity, a time period called the Roaring Twenties, and WW2 effectively brought American out of its Great Depression. The Cold War and the wars in the Middle East were not as profitable because war was never declared and as such the economy could not be industrialized.
http://factfinder.census.gov...), I have determined the age of childhood to be from ages 5-14, as that was the most accurate demographic I could use on the website. If the link does not work for you, Google census.gov and search on the website to find the data I used. once again, I would like to clarify, that I was NOT using false data at any point in the debate.
Con calls into question whether or not 11 years is really recent, but it seems that if I try to challenge this point, this debate will become one of semantics, so I will refrain.
Con asks for evidence that Lt. Surge really served in the Kanto military. Using a quote of Lt. Surge: "Hey, kid! What do you think you're doing here? You won't live long in combat! Not with your puny power! I tell you, kid, electric Pok"mon saved me during the war! They zapped my enemies into paralysis! The same as I'll do to you!" we can determine that the military that Lt. Surge served in was the Kanto military. We can do this by examining the line " electric Pok"mon saved me during the war! They zapped my enemies into paralysis!". Never before has there ever been an American war in which American soldier used Pokemon to zap their enemies into paralysis, in fact, there was never an American war in which American soldiers possessed Pokemon. We only know of 2 places that Lt. Surge has established residence, and that is in America, and in Kanto, and because this war that Lt. Surge speaks of was not an American war, it must have been a Kanto war. Since we now know that there is a Kanto war that Lt. Surge served in, it is logical to assume that he got his nickname "The Lightning American" from the military.
Con brings up the fact that a very likely reason for the lack of a substantial middle aged population is that they are working. Seeing as how the player character can enter almost every building in the game, this hypothesis could be easily proven or disproven by simply walking into many buildings and seeing if any of this middle aged population were in the aforementioned buildings, doing work. After doing this, I can verify that after searching through many buildings, I failed to find any large number of working middle aged people within the buildings. Seeing how a large number of middle aged workers cannot be found in almost any location (Silph Co is the major exception), the hypothesis that the middle aged people are present, but just working is debunked.
Con also mentions that using the USA as a nation to compare to Kanto is unfair to to the wealth of the USA. I would argue that Kanto is a relatively wealthy nation, and it is thus fair to compare it to the USA. I have come to the conclusion that Kanto is a wealthy nation by looking at the living conditions of the people there. By simply looking around Kanto, I have failed to see any significant poverty or poor living conditions. Thus, we can imply that Kanto is a relatively wealthy nation.
Con also brings up the fact that Kanto is having economic issues, and a large war would have improved the economy. To prove this hypothesis, Con uses the examples of the USA during WWI and WWII. I would like to counter this hypothesis using the examples of Germany, France during WWI and WWII. WWI left most major European powers in economic shambles, some nations only surviving due to the loans of the USA. The war was so bad for the Russian economy that it caused 2 revolutions, both completely changing the way that Russia was governed. WWII left France and the English Empire in shambles, essentially causing an end to their imperialist powers and shifting the world power to the USSR and USA. The only reason that the USA got so much benefit from both of these wars is because the USA got involved late in both of these wars, allowing them to get the spoils without much of the losses. Since Kanto was directly involved in the war that I am hypothesizing about, it is logical to assume that the Kanto economy would be destroyed in the same way that the European Powers' economies were destroyed, explaining the 1 incredibly small entertainment industry in Kanto.
I would like to thank Con for this interesting debate, I had a lot of fun doing it and appreciate the time that Con put in.
Unfortunately, the website provided is rather difficult to use in that I could not find the statistics you were referring to. I spent more time than I should have trying to look for it. On the other hand, here is one of the sources I researched myself:
"Con asks for evidence that Lt. Surge really served in the Kanto military. Using a quote of Lt. Surge: ..... we now know that there is a Kanto war that Lt. Surge served in, it is logical to assume that he got his nickname "The Lightning American" from the military."
Pro points out that no Pokémon has ever served in any known US conflict. However, the America in the Pokémon universe is clearly different than the American here, as no where in the world does regions filled with weird animals with supernatural powers exist. The Pokémon worlds cannot be on a different planet either, as if it was, then Lt Surge's nickname wouldn't be so specific as to call him an American, more likely it would be "earthling". Moreover, my opponent also previously suggested that since America is in the Pokémon universe, it is safe to assume that the rest of the countries on Earth also exist, and that Kanto could have been fighting one of those countries and not the any of the known Pokémon regions. I was willing to let this slide, but since my opponent seems to want to have it both ways, I must give him/her a choice; either the America Lt. Surge is from is the America in our reality, in which Pokémon regions don't even exist, or he is from the America from the Pokémon Universe, in which all the Pokémon regions do exist and are not isolated to those regions. The former is impossible because if Kanto didn't exist, this entire debate is irrelevant, so as such my opponent must acknowledge that it is perfectly plausible that in the Pokémon universe, America used Pokémon to fight wars, and Lt. Surge might have been referring to an American war, not a Kanto war, in his quote. And no, since it is not definitive that Lt Surge got his nickname from the Kanto military, however logical it may seem, we cannot just assume so.
"Con brings up the fact that a very likely reason for the lack of a substantial middle aged population is that they are... aged workers cannot be found in almost any location (Silph Co is the major exception), the hypothesis that the middle aged people are present, but just working is debunked."
Key word here is "almost". Not all buildings can be entered, most namely the ones that are either blocked off or have no visible doors. Moreover, there are plenty of places people may be working in but may somehow have eluded the player's attention. For example, all the numerous ports dotted around the region, the Safari Zone, Pokémon Tower (maintenance, undertaking, etc.), all the Pokémon Marts, the Department Store, the Game Corner, architecture (how do you think the cities all look so nice and organized), civil engineering, construction (Vermilion City in particular has a Machop pounding rocks for a construction worker), mining (possibly in caves), electricity, etc. It takes a lot to support a city, and the region would look much different if Silph Co. was the only place people were actually working, considering it is a research facility and makes exactly zero money on its own.
"Con also mentions that using the USA as a nation to compare to Kanto is unfair to to the wealth of the USA.... simply looking around Kanto, I have failed to see any significant poverty or poor living conditions. Thus, we can imply that Kanto is a relatively wealthy nation."
Kanto is much smaller than the US and is as such much easier to sustain. Moreover, not every town in Kanto looks happy and rich. In fact, your hometown, Pallet Town, is a rather drab and boring place, uncharacteristic of a rich neighborhood, considering there are literally only 2 houses. Viridian City, despite having a Gym, is mostly trees. Vermilion City is a port city, and because it is a port city it should be pretty rich, but most of it is pretty underdeveloped, with most of it being water, trees, and dirt. Even Saffron City, the supposed biggest city in Kanto, doesn't even compare to Spokane, much less America's biggest cities such as New York and Chicago (because we are not taking game development into account, I can make this comparison). As such, we can see that Kanto is much, much smaller than America, and because of that demographics are not accurately comparable. Besides, nobody determines how wealthy a country is based on how many poverty areas it had, as if we really did it this way, the US would be among the poorest countries in the world, and Vatican City would be the richest. And if Kanto was really as rich as America, it would probably have more entertainment centers.
"Con also brings up the fact that Kanto is having economic issues, and a large war would have improved the economy. ... would be destroyed in the same way that the European Powers' economies were destroyed, explaining the 1 incredibly small entertainment industry in Kanto."
Now this is an odd argument. First, I never said that Kanto was in economic trouble, I merely said that if Kanto really did go to war, it could not have been in economic trouble because of how good war is for economy. Second, Pro quite literally just said that Kanto was so rich, its economic situation would be comparable to America. And now all of a sudden its so poor it can only afford one entertainment industry. What my opponent said about war being somewhat detrimental to economy is true to a certain extent in that Britain and France did not industrialize to fight the war, but instead taxed, which yield the complete opposite outcome to a industrialized war economy. Same with Czar Nicholas, but not, incidentally, with Hitler or Stalin, who heavily industrialized for the war effort. Stalin enjoyed relative economic prosperity after WW2, while Germany, being the loser and all, was split into 4 different countries as punishment. But if Germany had won, it would have enjoyed one of the best economies in the world, as proven by the fact that Hitler revived the German economy through industry within 3 years, even though Germany was undergoes the worst economic depression in world history. So I still stand by my argument, but I may have been a little bit hasty about it. However, that is more or less irrelevant, as my opponent has pretty much contradicted himself here.
Just a reminder, before you vote, remember that the BoP is on Pro, and as such I only need reasonable doubt to win. I apologize if this sounds pretentious, but just want to throw that out there.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by 8elB6U5THIqaSm5QhiNLVnRJA 1 year ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Sources - only con supplied them. Arguments - Pro keeps asserting something about a guy named Surge. Con proves this to be barely significant. The other arguments of Pro never had evidence,sources or logic to back them up. They were all mere assertions. The ones that were true were irrelevant to the resolution.
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