Theological fatalism demonstrates the Christian god is a sinner, a liar or a fiction.
Debate Rounds (3)
Claims for man - Humanity inherited sin from the original sin. Men choose to sin because they have free will.
Step 1 - If earth doesn't exist god still knows what choices Adam and Eve will make on any given earth.
Step 2- If earth doesn't exist god still knows what sins will follow Adam and Eve's children.
Step 3 - If earth doesn't exist god still knows Bill Clinton will have an affair.
Step 4 - God made this exact earth and (presumably) no other earth and knows wholly what will happen on it.
Step 5 - Free will is predicated on no external constrain causing the "choice" to be determined for the chooser.
Step 6 - Predetermined events are established or decided in advance.
Step 7 - God must create a reality predetermined by his knowledge of it.
Step 8 - Predetermination is an external constrain which comes from the past to determine the future.
Step 9 - Bill Clinton's affair was predetermined by god.
Step 10 - Bill Clinton doesn't have free will.
Step 11 - The religion claims people have free will and god is omniscient.
Conclusion - The religion is illogical. Either god knowingly causes all sin, or god lies about his omniscience, or god is flawed fiction of man.
Responses to common rebuttals...
Rebuttal Type 1 - God gave use free will and sin because otherwise we would be robots.
My Response - An argument from gods motivation does not fix the logic break. If the bible said "And god made all things to be red." and I pointed out the sky was blue you would not reply "God made all things to be red for a reason." That would not resolve my problem with the blue sky.
Rebuttal Type 2 - Knowledge of the future does not limit free will.
My Response - This doesn't seem to be logical. Free will is defined as the ability to make a choice without external constraints. You can decide between multiple options, and until you make your decision, what you decide upon is not predestined. But if god made us with foreknowledge of what we would do, he made specifically a universe in which we would commit specific sins. We cannot escape our fate if god knows our fate. Therefore when we sin, god is the cause. "Naa-aa" is not a rebuttal. You have to explain how Bill Clinton could choose not to have an affair if god knew for certain he would have an affair.
And secondly, Naa-aa is my rebuttal =)
God is indeed omniscient, omnipotent, eternal and transcendent of time. God hates sins. This question has haunted many Christians. (including me D:)
God knows the future; he has precognitive abilities, and occult, telegnosis knowledge.
If so, why did he create us, knowing that we would sin?
Firstly, God can do anything, literally anything, be it turn water into wine or walk on water. He can do anything he wants, as long as it is contradictory to his nature. (Sinning)
I think this partially rebuts your statement. Sinning is something God will never/cannot do.
But still, the main question is left unanswered.
If God did not Sin, then...?
Why did God provide so many opportunities for us to Sin, if indeed he hates Sinning?
This Bible contradicts itself. Why did God plant a tree of Good and Evil in Eden, specifically for Adam and Eve to choose?
Eden and Eve knew nothing but perfectness, in the perfect, flawless, idyllic world that God created for them. They did not know Good from Evil; all they experienced were *perfectness*.
To understand the definition of Good, you've to experience Bad. To know what bright is, you've to experience darkness.
God knew this, and thus, he took a gamble and put a Tree, smack down in the middle of the Garden.
But, you might argue that he didn't really take a gamble, knowing that Adam and Eve would Sin.
Hmm, as for that, the hard part comes in.
God sent his Son to die on the cross for us, to prove many different things. This shows that The Plan of Salvation was obviously predetermined by God.
The fact is, as I've mentioned above, you've to experience Evil to know Good. You go through many trials, and your character, faith builds/or the pure exact opposite. This could all be part of God's plan. Attempting to comprehend the thinking/thinking that you could comprehend the thinking of an omnipotent being is Hubris.
Now, look down, and read this sh1t. I hope you've enough patience and all, if not, skip this crap because it isn't exactly important.
Don't blame me for wasting your time. Oh wait, I deleted the story. There was too little space for me. If possible, change 8,000 characters to 10k plz.
We control the future with our will. God does not preordain our actions. Anything to do, we ourselves are to blame, not the perfect, flawless, loving Creator that made us.
While you might argue that this statement is unfalsifiable, I believe it is true, look at the articles on the internet.
"We ought to understand that while God knows all things beforehand, yet He does not predetermine all things. For He knows beforehand those things that are in our power, but He does not predetermine them. For it is not His will that there should be wickedness nor does He choose to compel virtue. So that predetermination is the work of the divine command based on fore-knowledge. But on the other hand God predetermines those things which are not within our power in accordance with His prescience. For already God in His prescience has prejudged all things in accordance with His goodness and justice.
Bear in mind, too, that virtue is a gift from God implanted in our nature, and that He Himself is the source and cause of all good, and without His co-operation and help we cannot will or do any good thing, But we have it in our power either to abide in virtue and follow God, Who calls us into ways of virtue, or to stray from paths of virtue, which is to dwell in wickedness, and to follow the devil who summons but cannot compel us. For wickedness is nothing else than the withdrawal of goodness, just as darkness is nothing else than the withdrawal of light While then we abide in the natural state we abide in virtue, but when we deviate from the natural state, that is from virtue, we come into an unnatural state and dwell in wickedness."
establish or decide in advance.
1) If Earth doesn't exist God will still know what choices Adam and Eve will make on any given Earth.
2) If Earth doesn't exist God still knows what Sins will follow Adam and Eve's children.
3) If Earth doesn't exist God still knows that Bill Clinton will have an affair.
4) God made this exact earth and knows wholly what will happen on it.
5) Free will is predicated on no external constrain causing the "choice" to be determined for the chooser. (Sorry if I contradicted myself accidentally, I don't really understand this sentence tbh)
6) Predetermined events are established or decided in advance.
7) God did not create a Reality predetermined by his knowledge of it, he knew the Future but did not change it, I think. (This is sort of counter-intuitive, mind boggling (for me at least) )
8)Predetermination is an external constrain which comes form the past to determine the future. God did not determine the future, as we control the future with our Free Will. (I think, as I said, I don't understand anything. :P )
9) Bill Clinton's affair was not predetermined by God. Bill Clinton (Whoever he is, I know I'm stupid)
10) Bill Clinton has free will. (Hey, mind telling me who dafuq this guy is in Round 2?)
11) Christianity is a fact. God is omniscient, omnipotent, eternal and transcendent of Time. (As stated above in your argument)
12) I'm going to get rekt.
I am running out of characters, so note that I may not complete sentences or make my words shorter. Oh nvm I just deleted an entire quote (a damned long one at that) from this Argument. :P
Conclusion - Christianity is logical. God is omniscient, omnipotent, eternal and transcendent of Time.
I'm going to rebut Rebuttal Type 2 that you created in an attempt to rebut my rebut which I am going to rebut. Here is the Rebuttal which is to rebut your Rebuttal Type 2 which was intended to rebut my rebut which I just attempted to rebut:
This is logical. Free will is indeed defined as the ability to make a choice without external constraints. You can indeed decide multiple options, and until you make your decision, what you decide upon is not predestined. God knows that Bill Clinton will have an affair, but he cannot change it, he can only watch, as that would be contradictory if he changed the Future. God created a Reality that we would decide our own fate. God knows the Future; but he cannot change it, as it is against his nature. Can there be anything more heart-wrenching than that? Bill Clinton chose it out of Free Will. Don't blame it on God, plz.
Now, I need to review my stuff and see if I understand what I'm trying to say. This sh1t has haunted my @ss.
Go easy. And ppl here, Vote Pro. Although I know I don't make sense.
I_Voyager forfeited this round.
All vote Pro.
Also I'm exhausted, so there won't be much flare in my argument. But c'est la vie.
First, I take issue with the claim that to understand A, you must first experience B. In the case of the metaphor what if one experienced bright, and then brighter? One could infer from the experience of two degrees of brightness, less bright, and from that the absence of brightness.
Now, if god is limited by his nature, he is not omnipotent. His own nature is an excess he is powerless to overcome. Similarly, our free will is an excess he cannot overcome because he is to good to overcome it. This argument seems to put god in a weak light, a being who is powerless to do anything but produce this exact world. He can't help but produce evil in order to forge good, because a dichotomy between evil and good is necessary beyond god's will. God could not create, let's say, a totally good humanity and angelic body. He must make satan, he must plant the tree, Adam and Eve must sin, Bill Clinton must have an affair, and I must be an atheist. Which all goes against he doctrines of free will. If god knew I'd be an atheist, then god knew I'd go to hell. God could presumably make a universe without me, but instead with another person who'd elect to be christian. But he doesn't. Because he designs the world according to his scheme. But things can't exit outside his scheme; if a choice was made which ran contrary to gods knowledge, then god wouldn't be omnipotent.
I'm sorry man, but your arguments just don't seem to wrap up the logic gaps. Somehow "God's too nice a guy to interfere with our free will, but eternal torment is part of his repertoire." just doesn't stack up. It's not very heart-wrenching to think that an omnipotent being is powerless before himself, like a whirlpool which is always pulling itself in a circle, great in force but powerless to move in anything but one direction. It seems contradictory that an omnipotent being is impotent, or that beings free of will may only fulfill their destiny.
ChickenBakuba forfeited this round.
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