The Instigator
Esiar
Pro (for)
The Contender
CuriousFear
Con (against)

There Is No Proof of God

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/23/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 435 times Debate No: 94938
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (12)
Votes (0)

 

Esiar

Pro

My argument will be that there is no proof of a God, and Con's argument will be that there is proof of a God. I don't have to prove that there is no God because I'm not claiming that there is no God.

Round 1: Con gives proof of God/What they believe to be proof of God
Rounds 2-5: Counter arguments
CuriousFear

Con

Hi, I'm a Muslim and I'm convinced that Islam is most certainly the true religion of God. Let me start of with the name Qur'an, Qur'an comes from the word Qa'ra'aa. Qa'ra'aa means to recite, but how it's formed with that 'aan at the end, what it really means is "that which is recited excessively". We're living in the age of mass media, some artist comes out with a song and a million mp3s are downloaded and what we are saying and arguing is that one of the things that makes Qur'an miraculous is that it is the most recited. You have this song that is on top of the charts. How long does is stay on top of the charts? Six months and millions of people are humming it and singing it, whatever. Just one phrase in the Qur'an "Bismilah ar-Rahman ar-Raheem" is recited countless times a day by millions and millions of Muslims every single day for the last 1,400 years. It's the most recited word and it is even read more than the Bible statistically and the Muslims are not the majority population.
The Qu'ran we have today is the same word for word book. This book has been preserved, there is not a book like that. You throw all the Hindu texts, all the Torahs, all the Bibles and all the Qur'ans in a vault and no-one has access to these books. I tell you that as long as you have 2 people in the US or maybe in a small town in Kentucky somewhere that have memorised the Qur'an, you'll recover the whole book in 1 to 2 days. How easy is that to do for other books? It's incredible that even if you get rid of the physical books, it is still around. This book is such that when the pagan Arabs heard it was enough for them to embrace Islam because they knew that no man could have come up with words of such beauty, power and uniqueness. The Qur'an challenges mankind that if you believe that this book came from anyone else than Allah bring one chapter like it and they could never do it. In Surah Al-Baqarah there is a verse that says "This is how we made you a middle-nation", Al-Baqarah is made up of 286 verses and this verse occurs in verse 143. Remember, the Qur'an is recited and not documented because that came later on and yet look at the linguistic language of the Qur'an. The Qur'an says about Muhammad SAW "We have elevated your status" and if you'd know the Athan you would know that we send a praise upon Muhammad SAW. There's not a minute that goes by in the world that there's not an Athan going on somewhere. Whose name is being elevated in that call? Muhammad's SAW name is mentioned every time we bear witness that Muhammad SAW is the final messenger of God. It has been confirmed by multiple embryologists that the embryology in the Qur'an could not have been know in the 7th century, professor Keith Leon Moore even said that the only reasonable conclusion was that the descriptions of embryology were revealed by God. Keith Moore the embryologist is not even a Muslim and he still admits it. Here's a video of him explaining the stages. https://www.youtube.com...
Here is one of the verses about embryology.
We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)... (Quran, 23:12-14)
As we know, embryologists are confirming that what the Qur'an states is correct and if you're going to try to refute this with some dodgy Christian apologist website you're going to have a bad time.
Sources: https://www.islam-guide.com...
https://www.youtube.com...

Again we can find doctor Allison Ralph Palmer speak about the geological and cosmological statements in the Qur'an. https://www.youtube.com...
The Qur'an describes how the mountains have roots, which has only been discovered recently. The continental mountains have roots and they help to stabilise the earth's surface. This is mentioned in the Qur'an. The Qur'an mentions that the moon has a reflected light in Surah Furqan 25:61. The Qur'an mentions that the earth is spherical in surah an-nazi'at verse 30. The Qur'an mentions that the universe is expanding in Adh-dhariyat verse 47. The Qur'an mentions how people have unique fingertips in Al-Qiyamah in verse 4. The Qur'an speaks about the water cycle in several verses, in Surah az-Zumar verses 21, in Surah ar-Ruhm verse 24, in Al-Hijr verse verse 22, in Al-Mu'minun verse 18, in an-Nur verse 43, in surah Ruum verse 48, in surah Ahraf verse 17, in surah Furkhaan verse 48-49, in Surah Fathir verse 9, in Yaseen verse 34, in surah Mulk verse 30, in surah Thariq verse 11. There are so many verses that speak about the water cycle alone. The Qur'an describes the creation of the universe, how it was rend asunder from this Dukhaan, from the smoke and we know that the edge of universe are still echoing and expanding, as it is mentioned in ad-Dhariyaat.

The prophet Muhammad SAW said that at the end of time you would see the buildings of Mecca reach the mountain tops, a few dozen years ago the buildings weren't even close to the mountain tops and now they're even higher than the tops of the mountains. He said that the dishes will be communicating continuously and he used the very word that is used for satellite communication (mwa-salaat) and people would sever their family ties. He said that musical instruments would be widespread and he even that they would be on their heads. You would see people mocking and making fun, now look at the internet where everyone is just mocking each other. He said that you will see many children born out of wedlock, in the US now around 60%. He said that the end of time won't come until people would dance late into the night, this is what we find around the world in nightclubs and discos. He said that you would see barefooted Arab bedouins who would compete with one another in the construction of tall buildings. I invite you to look at Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Dubai, etc.
Muhammad SAW said that sexual promiscuity would be on the increase and that diseases would appear no-one has ever heard of. He said that religious knowledge would decrease and that speakers would be many, but the scholars would be few. Isn't this the case today? He said that women would be naked, even though they are dressed. The dress of some women today, where the clothes are so tight that they describe every shape of the body. This technology did not exist at the time of the Prophet SAW might I add. He said that the use of interest would be so common so much so that no-one would escape the dust of it, everyone would be affected by it. I think this is describing the world economy today. He said that rain would become burning or acidic, there would be acid rain. Towards the end of time you would see mountains with holes pierced through them. He said that a man would rather listen to his wife than listen to his mother, this is what we find today and he said that a man would rather listen to his friends than listen to his father, something contrary to the teachings of Islam. There are so many prophecies that have come true, I think that 50,000 characters would not be enough.
Hamza Yusuf speeches: https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com...

Imam Bayhaqi wrote a multivolume on why Muhammad SAW was a prophet of God and if you can proof that he's a prophet, ipso facto there must be a God. This argument that there is no God is not a new argument and our scholars have dealt with this argument extensively in a tradition called Rad-Al-Shubuhat, which is refutation of the obfuscations that are brought out by the atheists. We should know Allah SWT first through the intellect and our intellect is a spiritual concept, it's not of this world. The intellect is immaterial and this is why we don't know where we go when we dream, but we know that we leave this place and we enter into another realm. Numbers don't exist in the world. Where did the number 2 come from? Well there is 1 plus 2 which equals 3. They are not in the world, the mind put them together. Where did that come from? This is why Einstein said that the only thing that is incomprehensible in the world is its comprehensibility. So the statement that the only things that exist in the world are the things that are material is a false statement.

If that is not enough, we can find prophet Muhammad SAW being spoken of throughout the Bible. At one point his name is being mentioned specifically and Medina is pointed at specifically at a mountain called Sela. He is mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls, in the book of Isaiah chapter 42, in Deuteronomy 18:18 and John 14:16 even says that another prophet of God would come.

In the beginning of the chapter the Roman; chapter 30, Allah SWT revealed it to prophet Muhammad SAW and he said to the Muslims that there were "win and lose" battles between the Romans and the Persians being the major powers. He said the the Romans will be defeated in the lowest point of earth and then within ten years they would be victorious again. Not only did the same thing happen, that the Persians defeated the Romans first and then the Romans had a major defeat over them, but then with the advent of satellite, satellites told us that the battle actually took place on the lowest point on earth. The lowest point on the face of the earth. It's exactly 418 meters below the sea surface and the location is there in palestine today. Another interesting thing is that when the Qur'an says "We sent iron down". Scientists are saying that iron came from outer space and are not originally from earth. Allah SWT says "We created" for almost everything and yet look at this precision of the holy Qur'an. All of this is proof that the Qur'an is not the work of a man, but rather is the work of the almighty creator who knows all about us.
Debate Round No. 1
Esiar

Pro

  • Qur'an's recital

I don't really see how the fact that the Qur'an is the most recited thing really points to the fact of it being true. The fact that it is recited across the world so much really just proves that millions upon millions believe it, and clearly a bunch of people believing something doesn't mean it's true.

  • Qu'ran's preservation

-You claimed that the Qur'an has, word for word, been preserved, but you didn't give any evidence for it. Is there any contemporary evidence from around the time it was compiled that proves your claim? And can you prove the memorization prior to it being written didn't even fall slightly victim to error? I don't see the logic in using preservation to prove it's true, if you need to assume it's true to believe that it was perfectly preserved (that God didn't let memory error happen). Same thing with 2 people having it memorized and reconstructing it without the original source.


-If you say that the Gospel/Torah have not been perfectly preserved, you're digging your own grave in my opinion. The Qur'an says that Allah gave Jesus the Gospel, and Moses the Torah (Sura 5:46 & 2:87), and that Jesus and his life weren't the same as Christianity teaches. In Islam, he is a created being (Sura 3:59), did not die (4:157),and is not the Son of God (9:30). But there is absolutely 0 evidence of such a gospel book existing. The Bible hasn't been perfectly preserved, but it has never had the exact same story as Islam. This all shows that 1) If he exists, Allah decided to purposely deceive people about Jesus' death, causing the biggest shirk-committing religion ever, that will lead billions to Hell, and he decides to send a final prophet that shows the error of Christianity... Over 500 years later. The question a Muslim should ask themselves is: If Allah will allow his true religion to become corrupted, and erase all evidence of the original message of his prophet existing, twice, in a row with the Torah and Gospel, what justification would you have for believing he didn't a third time? The answer: He isn't real. No one who is "The Truth" and "The All-Compassionate" would do what Islam claims God does.


And if you believe the Bible has been perfectly persevered, you're still digging your own grave. If Allah gave the Torah and Gospel in truth, and they are preserved, it would follow that the claims the Gospel makes about Jesus are true, which would mean Islam is not. It becomes a huge contradiction. (That can't be used as an argument for Christianity though, since you'd be using Islam to reach that conclusion)

  • Linguistic Miracle

You said "This book is such that when the pagan Arabs heard it was enough for them to embrace Islam because they knew that no man could have come up with words of such beauty, power and uniqueness. The Qur'an challenges mankind that if you believe that this book came from anyone else than Allah bring one chapter like it and they could never do it."


And that's not a good reason to believe. You have to assume that it's a message from God in the first place to believe that no man could've came up with it. Many people find just as much beauty, power, and uniqueness in the Bible, but that hasn't convinced you to become a Christian. How you feel about people claiming Christianity is full of those things is how I feel about Islam. Bringing a chapter like the Qur'an is a challenge that's impossible to meet the standards of. To Muslims, the Qur'an is perfect, so through their lens it's impossible to create anything comparable to it. You can't say "No matter what you do, at all, you will never pass this challenge." and claim to have proved your belief when they don't pass the challenge. The argument only works if you already believe in Islam.

  • Scientific Accuracy

Human Embryo - Don't you think the chewed substance thing is a stretch? It says a chewed substance, not looks like a chewed substance (I'm addressing the first link you sent). And it's basing that it looks like a chewed substance on the relatively recent invention of gum, which isn't the only thing that qualifies as a chewed substance. And secondly, the rest of the description of embryonic development says "then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it another creation". Any ounce of research would tell you that bone that is forming is always "clothed" with flesh because they develop at the same time, while this verse states that the bones are clothed with flesh after they are fashioned.


Mountain Roots - How have mountains stabilized the Earth like the verse says? Many/Most mountains are caused by the tectonic plates themselves.

Moon Reflecting Light - I don't see how "Luminous Moon" as it says in Sura Furqan 25:61 (some translations just say Moon giving light) is the same thing as the Moon reflecting light

Spherical Earth - Again, I don't see how "He spread the Earth" in Sura 79:30 is the saying the Earth is spherical. And even then, the idea that it was round existed from at least the 6th century B.C.

Universe Expansion - The Qur'an calls the heavens a roof (21:32) that can fall on the Earth (22:65). Either you're interpreting your verse wrong or it's a contradiction.

Unique Fingertips - The verse you cited says "Yea, We have the power to restore his very finger-tips.". This makes no claim that all fingerprints are unique

Water Cycle - Every single verse you mentioned to support this doesn't describe the water cycle at all. I'm not going to go through all of them one by one, because we both have seen them, and the reader can look themselves, but if they look at them without any confirmation bias they're not going see anything that a 6th century man couldn't have said (How does "And We have sent the fertilizing winds and sent down water from the sky and given you drink from it. And you are not its retainers" describe the Water Cycle?) The only thing that even remotely points to the water cycle is Sura Al-Mu'minun verse 18, and claiming that Allah can take away the water after rain comes isn't really a scientific revelation when everyone since the beginning of mankind could observe puddles dissipating.

  • End Times Prophecy

(I'm not going into whether the prophecies are from accurate Hadith or whether they're being misinterpreted, they're all getting benefit of the doubt)
-Even if something like buildings becoming taller than mountains does happen, that doesn't prove that the prediction that it would happen is divinely inspired. Can you explain why saying that Islam isn't true (which I would say is a claim that I've supported), but because we now have the ability to make such tall buildings, they were built in Mecca for convenience, or to say that because the Muslim population there, it was bound to happen as a sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy because it's now possible, is less reasonable than claiming that it's a divinely inspired prophecy that came true?

-For the Dish thing, I really don't want to comment on that because debunking that goes into the Arabic, and I don't want to pretend to know anything about that. But just because I can't answer this one prophecy, that doesn't mean everything else I said is invalidated. If you're claiming a book is perfect, one thing potentially being right doesn't prove it, but proving one thing wrong would prove it isn't perfect.

-Prophecies like sexual promiscuity and mocking are barely even real prophecies. Every single generation is full of sexually promiscuous people and mockers. There will always be new diseases that no one has heard of. Families get divided all the time. Prophecies like "the end of time won't come until people would dance late into the night" aren't so miraculous, when any given group of people throughout history can do that. I'm really not going to talk about this more for now because my time limit would run out if I went into detail about every prophecy you mentioned.

  • Immaterial Existence

You said "The intellect is immaterial and this is why we don't know where we go when we dream, but we know that we leave this place and we enter into another realm". The intellect is not material, but we do know where we go when we dream: Nowhere. All evidence shows that it's going on in our brains and not in another realm. Can you show my statement to be wrong? And besides that, whether or not intellect is an immaterial and/or "spiritual" thing says nothing about whether God is real or not.

You said "Numbers don't exist in the world. Where did the number 2 come from? Well there is 1 plus 2 which equals 3. They are not in the world, the mind put them together. Where did that come from?". Numbers aren't material, and the mind came up with it, but it isn't a spiritual concept, and they have proof of concept (Numbers/Math have clearly benefited us and have proved to a reliable concept). Because of that, it doesn't have to do with an Atheist saying that you shouldn't believe in God because God is supposedly immaterial (again, because Math isn't a spiritual concept), which I myself think is silly to say, so at least for me, if you're using this argument from this point forward it would be a straw man.

  • Muhammad In Bible

No verse you cited mentions Muhammad.

Muhammad's Name - I'm guessing you're talking about Song of Songs 5:16 (Correct me if I'm wrong) Which says "His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.". The word for "Altogether lovely" is pronounced Ma-ha-mad-im, which Muslims claim is Muhammad, with the "im" being there as a plural of respect. So if all of this were true, the verse's correct reading would be "His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is Muhammad". The problem with this is the context of the chapter (and Song of Songs in general). If you read it, it's a woman describing her lover. Read verses 4-5, then tell me she's talking about Muhammad. I'm stopping now because my word limit ran out...

https://www.biblegateway.com...


CuriousFear

Con

Qur'an's recital

l am just saying that the name of the Qur'an has also fulfilled its meaning. You can call this evidence or not, it's there.

Qu'ran's preservation

Bring me two Qur'ans in Arabic off course, where words are added or changed. Right, you can't so there I proved its preservation.
Here you have a woman trying to claim that the Qur'an is not preserved, but she fails to show a difference.
https://www.youtube.com...
Here you have another Christian claiming as if there are so many differences and then she fails to give one, she went as far as wanting the cameras off.
https://www.youtube.com...

Do you know what the Torah and the Gospel are in the Qur'an? They're the texts that were given to Moses and Jesus peace be upon them, not the texts written by whoever centuries after Jesus PBUH. To say that the Bible we have today is the Gospel that is mentioned in the Qur'an is ludicrous. Where is the Gospel of Jesus? How come the Torah mentions Moses his death from another person's perspective? I can give you hundreds of differences in the Bible. Allah SWT didn't corrupt the religion, Jesus PBUH did his Job and mentioned what would happen to him. Men has free will and men have changed these books, so therefore it isn't Allah's fault. It isn't Allah's fault that the trinitarian Christians killed off and slaughtered the unitarian Christians. Also, if someone hasn't heard of the true word of God and then dies, he won't be held accountable. If some Brazilian Christian woman dies today who never heard of Islam, she will not be held accountable for it. Only the people who heard the truth and rejected the truth will go to the hellfire. So for example, I am bringing forth my message about Islam to you now and if you deny that message you will be held accountable and it will be the reason why you will enter the hellfire.Muhammad SAW was planned all along.

Linguistic Miracle

We don't have to accept any miracle from the Bible, it doesn't work like that. Sure, there's a miracle in it, but who says that didn't came from Allah SWT? Secondly,if I'd convert to Christianity I should still follow most rules of Islam, for example I should pray with my face on the ground. You practically admit that no one can create something like the Qur'an.
The shortest chapter of the Qur'an has 10 words and in those 10 words we can find 40 rhetorical devices. What human can create that? Right, none. The Qur'an mentions the word Day 365 times. The Qur'an mentions the word month 12 times.

Scientific Accuracy

Human Embryo - Have you watched the video of Keith Moore? https://www.youtube.com...
1. That which is being construed as a scientific fact"" in this case is not in actuality a fact.
2. The verse that is being construed as being in conflict with science is being misinterpreted, misapplied, or misunderstood.

Then We made the Nutfah into a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood), then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh, then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So blessed be God, the Best of creators." [Surah Al-Mu'minun: verse 14]
You further contend that this verse contradicts what we know in embryology that the bone and muscle develop simultaneously from the mesoderm.

When we read the verse, it says that the bones are created from the "little lump of flesh (mudghah). This in no way implies that bones are created before flesh and then this little naked skeleton is given flesh. It actually more clearly implies a concurrent development, since some sort of flesh is always there from the start. Nowhere in the verse does it say that the bones have finished forming. Nowhere does it even imply that muscle tissue is not developing concurrently. The wording of the verse is quite vague on this point and what it says is quite compatible with what we know of embryology. All that the verse is stating is that flesh" we might venture to assume differentiated muscle tissue, since the Arabic word lahm (meat, flesh) is generally used exclusively for muscle tissue" is attached to bones as the bones begin to form. Allah says: then We clothed the bones with flesh.Allah does not say: "Then we created flesh and clothed the bones with it. "

Mountain Roots -First off, it's a fact that they have roots. These roots are deeply embedded in the ground, thus, mountains have a shape like a peg.
Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse And the mountains As Pegs. [Quran 78:6-7]

The modern theory of plate tectonics holds that mountains work as stabilizers for the earth. This knowledge about the role of mountains as stabilizers for the earth has just begun to be understood in the framework of plate tectonics since the late 1960. The Qur'an never mentions preventing earthquakes.
https://en.wikipedia.org...
https://www.sciencedaily.com...
goo.gl/5qtzOf

Moon Reflecting Light - What is meant here is reflected light or borrowed light. The Arabic word being used here is Muneer or Noor meaning reflected light or borrowed light.

Spherical Earth - We came to know that it was spherical in 1597. Read Surah nazi'at verse 30, you can go ahead and read the different translations. The word being used here is "Dhahaha", the first meaning is an expanse and the second meaning is derived from the Arabic word "Dhuiyah", which means an egg. Not your usual egg, it refers to an egg of an ostrich. The shape of the egg of an ostrich is also geo spherical in shape.
Source: http://rationalislam.blogspot.nl...
https://tafseerstudy.wordpress.com...

Universe Expansion - You have taken two verses and then you gave your own interpretation. What I said is a clear statement from the Qur'an.
And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander. (Qur'an 51:47)

Unique Fingertips - Again no. The verse says: Yes. [We are] Able [even] to proportion his fingertips.
This is from the Sahih International translation the most accepted translation of all English translations of the Qur'an.

Unbelievers argue regarding resurrection taking place after bones of dead people have disintegrated in the earth and how each individual would be identified on the Day of Judgement. Allah SWT answers that He can not only assemble our bones, but can also reconstruct perfectly our very fingertips. Why does the Qur'an, while speaking about determination of the identity of the individual, speak specifically about fingertips? In 1880, fingerprinting became the scientific method of identification, after research done by Sir Francis Golt. No two persons in the world can ever have exactly the same fingerprint pattern. That is the reason why police forces worldwide use fingerprints to identify the criminal. 1400 years ago who could have known the uniqueness of each human's fingerprint? Surely it could have been none other than the Creator.

Water Cycle - I meant to say Surah Ahraf 7:57 and not verse 17. For the rest I personally don't see a problem with the verses I presented, they are all correct. They all explain the water cycle in great detail. The Qur'an also mentions that rainwater is pure for example. If you deny what the Qur'an says then you'll have to deny the entire water cycle. We supposedly came to know about the water cycle in the 16th century. Muhammad SAW was an illiterate Arabian prophet in the desert in the 7th century, it is unlikely that he could even read basic words. The two can't be compared.

End Times Prophecies

There are hundreds of prophecies. You shouldn't have gone over the ones I presented, there are so many it is unimaginable. Some prophecies are just too accurate to be true. Here's a 20 minute video on a few of the prophecies: https://www.youtube.com...

Immaterial Existence

I never mentioned that this proves that God exists, I mean that you should at least acknowledge that there are immaterial things in this world. Many atheists are materialists. My statement is just as correct as yours. When we sleep and dream we are not aware of our surroundings and we do enter into a place that is immaterial. Are your dreams in a material place? From a materialist perspective we don't go anywhere, but from a religious perspective we get into another place.

Muhammad In Bible

I was not even aware of that verse, but I'm glad you brought that one up. John 14:16 mentions the coming of another prophet. Jesus AS never mentioned that he is the last prophet either. Deuteronomy 18:18 mentions the coming of another prophet like Moses AS, Christians claim that Jesus AS is a prophet like no other and by the biography of Muhammad SAW we can see that he is the only man in history that can remotely be compared with Moses AS. Up to the time of Jesus (peace be upon him), the Israelites were still awaiting that prophet like unto Moses prophesied in Deuteronomy 18:18. When John the Baptist came, they asked him if he was Christ and he said "no". Then they asked him if he was Elias and he said "no". Then in apparent reference to Deuteronomy 18:18, they asked him "Art thou that Prophet?" and he answered "no" (John 1:19-21). Isaiah 42 also mentions the coming of another Arabian prophet who will conquer, who will fight and that he will be a light for the gentiles, Isaiah even pinpoints to a mountain called Sela (which is a mountain in Medina). In every single way is this verse not talking about Jesus AS, as the Christians claim. More information here:
- http://www.manyprophetsonemessage.com...
- http://sunnahonline.com...

I can go and on and on about the verses that mention Muhammad SAW. The Christian doctrine can easily be proven false with the Bible as well.
Debate Round No. 2
Esiar

Pro

Recital

If I can call it evidence or not, and it's just there, I don't really see the point in mentioning it in a debate.

Preservation

1.
You said "Bring me two Qur'ans in Arabic off course, where words are added or changed. Right, you can't so there I proved its preservation."

This does not address my question of where any contemporary manuscript/s of the Qur'an is/are. Two Qur'ans today are going to be the same, but my question is in whether they're the same as it was when it was first compiled (I did watch the videos)

2. About the Torah and Gospel's corruption, you're really missing my point. I know that you're claiming the originals were given to Moses and Jesus, and that men changed/got rid of them, but I'm asking you to provide evidence that these original books you're claiming Allah gave Jesus/Moses even existed, which you didn't give an answer for. I agree that "To say that the Bible we have today is the Gospel that is mentioned in the Qur'an is ludicrous.", because like I said, that would be contradictory, but you've yet to show that the Gospel actually mentioned in the Qur'an even existed.

3. You said "Allah SWT didn't corrupt the religion, Jesus PBUH did his Job and mentioned what would happen to him. Men has free will and men have changed these books, so therefore it isn't Allah's fault. It isn't Allah's fault that the trinitarian Christians killed off and slaughtered the unitarian Christians.".

It is Allah's fault. If he's real, he chose not to protect the book from being changed by men. Free will isn't a factor in this when you're telling me that Allah protects the Qur'an from being changed (which you have yet to show me an original manuscript). And it would be Allah's fault for allowing Trinitarians to kill off Unitarians when Islam claims that he protected Muslims/Muhammad (Surah 5:67)

4. You didn't fully address what I said here: "If he exists, Allah decided to purposely deceive people about Jesus' death, causing the biggest shirk-committing religion ever, that will lead billions to Hell, and he decides to send a final prophet that shows the error of Christianity... Over 500 years later. The question a Muslim should ask themselves is: If Allah will allow (new note: realize that I said allow, not that he himself corrupted it) his true religion to become corrupted, and (here I should've put "let people") erase all evidence of the original message of his prophet existing, twice, in a row with the Torah and Gospel, what justification would you have for believing he didn't (use deception or allow corruption) a third time?" and I then said "He isn't real. No one who is "The Truth" and "The All-Compassionate" would do what Islam claims God does", in other words, a truthful and compassionate God would not A) Deceive people about his prophet's death (not truthful) and B) Let that deception lead to a heretical religion which he chooses to correct after hundreds of years (not compassionate). To justify your position you'd have to answer my A and B points. I would say you answered B by saying "if someone hasn't heard of the true word of God and then dies, he won't be held accountable", meaning deceived Christians from before Muhammad, aren't held accountable, but that raises more questions. One being, why even tell what the actual truth is? If no one knows it, no one would be held accountable, and we'd learn the truth after we die. Wouldn't that be more compassionate, considering telling the truth just leads to more people in Hell? Being silent is not lying. And another being, if Allah does choose to reveal the truth, what reason would he have for waiting so long? And you never answered why Allah deceived people about Jesus' death.

5. You didn't address this point either: "And can you prove the memorization prior to it being written didn't even fall slightly victim to error? I don't see the logic in using preservation to prove it's true, if you need to assume it's true to believe that it was perfectly preserved (that God didn't let memory error happen)."

Linguistic Miracle

Things you said:
"We don't have to accept any miracle from the Bible, it doesn't work like that. Sure, there's a miracle in it, but who says that didn't came from Allah SWT?"

The thing is that you haven't proved that the Torah and Gospel mentioned in the Qur'an ever existed, meaning you have no basis in evidence to say any of the supposed miracles are from Allah of the Qur'an.

"Secondly,if I'd convert to Christianity I should still follow most rules of Islam, for example I should pray with my face on the ground."

I don't really see the point in this, but if there is one: You'd be following a lot of the same rules, but also many foundationally different ones. The lives of devout Christians and devout Muslims are very different.

3. "A) You practically admit that no one can create something like the Qur'an. B) The shortest chapter of the Qur'an has 10 words and in those 10 words we can find 40 rhetorical devices. What human can create that? Right, none. C) The Qur'an mentions the word Day 365 times. The Qur'an mentions the word month 12 times." (I added the letters)

A) My point is that it is an illogical argument because it's inherently impossible to create something like the Qur'an in the eyes of Muslims. I can't claim something is impossible to match in every way, and when I don't believe you matched it after an attempt to do so, tell you that that's proof I'm right. You could do that with anything.

B) What is the chapter and what are the 40 rhetorical devices?

C) I'm not going to attempt to debunk the claims themselves because I don't know anything about Arabic, so I'm going forth giving them the benefit of the doubt. The reader can decide for themselves. With that, if these claims are true, I wouldn't view this as definite proof of Islam. You could use it as evidence, but in an investigation, for example, a few pieces of evidence do not outweigh all the unanswered questions and inconsistencies (that goes into my above points of asking you to answer/explain certain things). If a piece of information is inconsistent with everything else you find, it would be logical to believe that there's another explanation for it that is in line with the rest of the evidence, whatever that may be. If you want to argue that what I said here isn't true, you have to show a logical inconsistency in what I said, or show that what I said doesn't apply to Islam

Science
I think the thing with this is, you can find things that look Scientifically accurate if you're looking at it from a modern lens. It really only works if you're looking to confirm Islam after you already believe it (which is called confirmation bias). If you look at from the neutral position of looking at the evidence, I don't think there's a good reason to believe anything miraculous is going on.

Embryology:
Obviously the Qur'an is making a distinction from the lump of flesh made from the clot, and the flesh that clothes the bones after the bones are made from the lump of flesh. I never said that the verse states that the bones are clothed with flesh after they finish forming. I simply said that this verse claims the bones are made from a lump of flesh, and after they're made, they are clothed with flesh, which is exactly what it said.

"The wording of the verse is quite vague on this point and what it says is quite compatible with what we know of embryology."
And because it's vague, the fact that it can fit with Science isn't really miraculous when vague things can be interpreted in multiple different ways.

Mountains:
The Bible said that Mountains have roots before the Qur'an said they pegs (Job 28:9, read what I said at the beginning of linguistic miracle too). It would be more reasonable to say that Muhammad got it from the Bible than from God.

Spherical Earth:
The claim we learned it was spherical in 1597 is false. Even the myth that Christopher Columbus discovered it puts it before that in 1492 (And we know it was before 1492). It has been known since the the time of ancient Greeks (Which is before even Jesus was born), although it wasn't as widely accepted. You then claim that the Qur'an says the Earth is shaped like an Ostrich Egg. The Earth is not the shape of an Ostrich Egg. The polar diameter (12,714km) is slightly smaller than the equatorial diameter (12,756km). Such a minimal difference isn't even visible to the naked eye, as you can see from pictures of the Earth. This is nothing like an Ostrich Egg, where the diameters are instantly distinguishable.

Universe Expansion:
This goes into what I said about confirmation bias. If what you said is just a clear statement from the Qur'an, why aren't mine? "He restrains the sky from falling upon the Earth". The sky, or what Christianity and Islam call the Heavens are not things that can fall. They are something you can go through. To say Allah could make it physically possible to do it would be avoiding the point that the Qur'an says he preventing it.

Fingertips:
Where did you get the idea that the Qur'an is speaking about determining identity? At the most you could say Allah is saying he can even assemble specific details like fingerprints, but this still makes no claim that all fingerprints are unique. Where does it say that?

Water Cycle:
Every single verse makes very basic claims about water, clouds, etc. Where's the detail?

------------------------------------
The word limit right now is too low to talk about any another subjects. We can have a separate debate about the things I didn't get to after this one



CuriousFear

Con

I encourage that you look at the Birmingham manuscript, which is dated to be one of the oldest, if not the oldest Qur'an.
Sources (No Islamic sources): https://www.youtube.com...
http://www.livescience.com...
http://www.bbc.com...

This supports our claim about the preservation of the Qur'an.

Can I proof that there is a Gospel of Jesus? No, you have to ask the Christians. I've been wondering where that gospel is as well. The Qur'an says so and that's enough. We can find that the first followers of Jesus were unitarians though. When we found the Dead Sea Scrolls in Kumaran we could find that the first Christians were still a part of Judaism that followed Jesus as their prophet. Do I need to proof that Abraham existed as well? Get three different Bible versions and you'll see that words are added/changed or removed continuously.

In regards to 5:67, it's obvious that this is directed towards Muhammad SAW. The verse starts of with "Oh messenger". The messenger fought many battles and won them, even though he was extremely outnumbered.
Example 1: Battle of Badr
Muslims
313 infantry and cavalry: 2 horses and 70 camels
Quraysh
950 infantry and cavalry: 100 horses and 170 camels
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org...

Example 2: Battle of Hunayn
Muslims
12,000

Enemies
20,000
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org...

Example 3: Battle of Mu'tah
Muslims
3,000

Romans
200,000
Source: http://www.islamweb.net...
https://www.youtube.com...

Muhammad SAW was not a warrior before the Qur'an

Jews were still on the straight path before Jesus AS, again when Jesus AS came he did his job. Throughout the Bible we can find the message of Islam. Why would Allah allow people to worship the sun and the moon? The same logic can be applied here, Allah sends prophets and through these prophets people receive the message. No prophet before Muhammad SAW claimed or mentioned that they are the last prophet.
Jesus his disciples never believed that Jesus himself was crucified (Christians claim the opposite), so it's not the fault of the prophet. If Allah wanted he could make everyone Muslim, but he doesn't.

For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and if God had willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so race to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute. (Quran 5:48)

The recitations go back to the time of Muhammad SAW if we stand in prayer and the Imam recites something then the people behind him need to correct him if his recitation is wrong. When someone recites Qur'an the wrong way, we need to correct him.
https://www.youtube.com...

Regarding your statements about the linguistic miracles in the Qur'an.
A) People did come and try to challenge the Qur'an. For example Musaylimah Al Khazzab claimed prophethood and he came with these words:
Al-Feel
Mal-Feel
Wa maa adraaka mal-feel
Lahu dhanabun radheel, wa khurtoomun taweel

which translates as:

The Elephant
What is the elephant?
And what would have you know what the elephant is?
It has a scraggly tail and a very long trunk.

This is madness, he tried, but he failed miserably and this challenge will remain right until the Day of Judgement.

B) Al Kawthar.
A few of them are:
Semantically Orientated Repetition
Intimacy
Exaggeration
Rebuke and contempt
Conciseness
Prophesy

More information: https://www.youtube.com...
http://www.hamzatzortzis.com...
https://muslimanswers.net...

Here is a 2 hour video on the linguistic revelation of the Qur'an: https://www.youtube.com...

For people who read the Qur'an through translations, a lot of spirit and impact is lost in the process of translation. One of the reasons of loss is a few features of literary Arabic style that have never been duplicated in any other language.

Here are some more linguistic things about the Qur'an.
-Hell is mentioned 77 times and paradise is mentioned 77 times.
-The plural of days is mentioned 30 times and the singular of day is mentioned 365 times and month is indicated 12 times
- Man is mentioned 23 times and woman is mentioned 23 times. Humans have 46 chromosomes, 23 from each parent.
- World is mentioned 115 times and hereafter is mentioned 115 times
- The seven heavens are mentioned 7 times and the creation of the heavens are mentioned 7 times
- Faith is mentioned 25 times and Kufr (=Concealing the truth) is mentioned 25 times
- The word "satan" (shaitan) is used in the Qur'an 88 times, as is the word "angels" (malaika).
-"Sun" (shams) and "light" (nur) both appear 33 times in the Qur'an.
- Land is mentioned 13 times and sea is mentioned 32 times, 13+32=45
13 / 45= 28.888888888888889%
32 / 45 = 71.111111111111111%
Land occupies about 28.888888888888889% of the world
Water occupies about 71.111111111111111% of the world
- Life is mentioned 145 times and death is mentioned 145.
- The word "payment or reward" is repeated 117 times, while the expression "forgiveness" (mughfirah), which is one of the basic morals of the Qur'an, is repeated exactly twice that amount, 234 times.
- When we count the word "Say," we find it appears 332 times. We arrive at the same figure when we count the phrase "they said."

Regarding science.
The fact that Alaqah was used out of all the Arabic words is enough to say that no man in the 7th century could have authored this. We take what the embryologists say about this and they say it is correct. You further give the Bible's statements as if you're talking to a Hindu or something. The God of the Bible is (mostly) the same God as that of the Qur'an so it doesn't matter what the Bible says about science. The same Bible tells us that there were no humans 7,000 years ago.

Your argument about the Greeks or anyone else doesn't work because
A) Muhammad SAW was an Arab
B) He was illiterate and had no education at all
C) He had no access to these books and works, even if he did, he would be wrong because the Greeks were mostly wrong.

I misinterpreted the verse about the dahaha, not a single translation uses the word ostrich egg, this is my mistake. I'll correct myself.
The word in question is the verb (daha). This verb comes from the tri-literal root d-h-w, and it appears in the Quran in relation to the Earth in the following verse: "And the Earth, after that, He spread out (dahaha). (al-Nazi'at verse 30)
This word conveys one concept in the Arabic language: that of "spreading, leveling, flattening, and smoothing out". Allah mentions this to us in the verse to show us something of his providence to us. He explains what he means by stretching the Earth out and smoothing it out in the following verses: He brought forth from it its water and its pasturage, and He made the mountains firmly fixed." (al-Nazi'at verses 31-32)

Therefore, Allah smoothed out the Earth for us by making it a stable and suitable place for habitation, providing its inhabitants with water, pasture, and keeping its mountains firmly-fixed.

Dahaha doesn't just mean egg. It more accurately means making something spherical, among other meanings such as pushing something, or causing it to roll. It also means to expand. When Allah SWT said that He daha the earth, it means that Allah:

1- Expanded the earth spherically.
2- Made it rotate around itself.
3- Travel in its-now stable orbit around the sun, which made it support life as we know it on earth. Before that, earth was chaotic and didn't support life. So it was stabilized by Allah Almighty. This is why in the very next verse, Allah SWT Said that after He dahaha , He brought from it its water and pasture.

Regarding the universe expansion. I don't see what's wrong with the statement of the Qur'an, since Allah is the sustainer and the creator.

Regarding fingertips.
While it is stated in the Qur'an that it is easy for Allah to bring man back to life after death, peoples' fingerprints are particularly emphasized: Yes, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers. (Qur'an, 75:4)

[75:4] Indeed, We have the power to (mold and) sculpt (even) his finger tips in perfect proportions. Dr. Munir Munshey
[75:4] Yes, We are Able to put together in perfect order the tips of his fingers. Muhammad Al-Hilali
8:12 also mention fingertips.

In virtually every single English translation (banana) means fingertips. My claim is my own interpretation and not a scholarly opinion.

If the water cycle is so simple and common knowledge then why do we have to discover it in the first place? Different details about the water cycle are given throughout the Qur'an that Muhammad SAW couldn't have known. I'm not going in detail, but if you look at the few verses I have presented it is clear that this person knew about the water cycle. There are hundreds of verses that talk about the water cycle alone. You also need to take note that Muhammad SAW lived in an Arabian desert in the 7th century.

Here is a link to a few of my claims about science: https://www.missionislam.com...

I only gave a few examples of science, an in-depth look on the science in the Qur'an can be found in a book called:
The Bible, The Qur'an and science.
http://www.islamicbulletin.org...

This book is based on research, testing and experimentation. No scientific errors were found.

I'm not going to make anymore claims this round, rather you can make the claim that there is an error in the Qur'an.
Debate Round No. 3
Esiar

Pro

Preservation
Here are my follow-up points

1. Is the entirety of the Qur'an preserved in the manuscript?

2. You said "Can I proof that there is a Gospel of Jesus? No, you have to ask the Christians. I've been wondering where that gospel is as well. The Qur'an says so and that's enough.".

The Qur'an saying something may be enough for you, but it isn't in a debate when you're attempting to prove the Qur'an (and as a result God). If you can't show evidence that a Gospel given to Jesus existed, no one reading this debate has a good reason to believe that the Qur'an's claim that it did exist is true. If you want to show that the Bible changed, you need to point out what it used to say and how that is different from the current Bible, which is impossible with the Gospel that Islam claims existed. Also, I don't understand why you said "you have to ask the Christians", when Christians claim that the Islamic version of the Gospel never existed.

3. I asked you why Allah would protect the Qur'an from corruption but not the Gospel, and why he would protect Muhammad and the Muslims with him but not the early Christians who followed what you claim is the straight path. Your response to this was "In regards to 5:67, it's obvious that this is directed towards Muhammad SAW. The verse starts of with "Oh messenger". The messenger fought many battles and won them, even though he was extremely outnumbered.". How does this address anything I said about the verse? You told me what the verse said and gave examples where you say it was fulfilled. This does not answer my question about why Allah wouldn't protect the true Christians, and you didn't even address why he didn't protect the Gospel.

4. You said "Why would Allah allow people to worship the sun and the moon? The same logic can be applied here, Allah sends prophets and through these prophets people receive the message. No prophet before Muhammad SAW claimed or mentioned that they are the last prophet.
Jesus his disciples never believed that Jesus himself was crucified (Christians claim the opposite), so it's not the fault of the prophet. If Allah wanted he could make everyone Muslim, but he doesn't"

This really doesn't make any sense. Even if Jesus' disciples never believed that Jesus was crucified, this has nothing to do with the Qur'an claiming that Allah let everyone else believe that he did, by making the guy being crucified look exactly like Jesus and taking the real Jesus to Heaven when they weren't with with (What else would they have believed?), so you didn't answer my question properly. Why would Allah trick people about Jesus' crucifixion? And why would God decide to send certain people astray (Sura 35:8)? Note that the verse says Allah does it. What part of that is compassionate?

5. You answered my question of "Can you prove the memorization prior to it being written didn't even fall slightly victim to error?" with "The recitations go back to the time of Muhammad SAW if we stand in prayer and the Imam recites something then the people behind him need to correct him if his recitation is wrong. When someone recites Qur'an the wrong way, we need to correct him.".

What about after Muhammad's death, and before the Qur'an was compiled? Correcting an Imam when you have the Qur'an in your hands is different from Muslims from soon after Muhammad's death disagreeing about the verses without an official Qur'an (and they did have disagreements: https://wikiislam.net...). To update what I said to fit your response, I could say "I don't see the logic in using preservation to prove it's true, if you need to assume it's true to believe that it was perfectly preserved (that God let the correct recital be put in the book)

Linguistic Miracle
You missed my point. I know people tried to pass the challenge. My point is that if you already believe that nothing can compare to even one chapter of the Qur'an, you will dismiss any attempt to match it as a failure. And secondly, who is even the judge of the challenge? It would be up to each individual to decide if it matches it or not. Whether or not someone thinks something matches the linguistic level of one chapter of the Qur'an is subject to bias, overlooking details, misinterpretations, etc. It's using a subjective measure to weigh an objective challenge. Pleasing a Muslim is impossible with this challenge, because a Muslim already believes that it's impossible to pass, and if a Muslim ends up thinking someone did matched a chapter and leaves Islam after studying in depth both the chapter in the Qur'an and the chapter presented to challenge it, what would make him more wrong than you if you believed that the Qur'an wasn't matched after the same in depth research? I can't really debunk all of your claims about the amount of times certain words appear because I don't understand Arabic, so you'll need someone else to debate that (and even if you're right about the appearances of these, I made the point that claiming it proves it was God-given doesn't match the rest of the evidence. I.e., everything you could infer to be correct about the Qur'an would be negated if I can prove just one thing to be illogical or wrong, if you claim the Qur'an is preserved and perfect. Which it's up to the reader to decide if I have).

--------------------------------------

I don't really have any time right now so hopefully we can debate the topic of Science in the future
CuriousFear

Con

I haven't personally checked that manuscript, but no-one has given criticism from that manuscript or even made the claim that it is difference. If there is a difference anyone is open to show, but they don't. The only difference is that this manuscripts doesn't have vowels, but the words are still complete and there. Vowels don't have to be written, they're optional and are mainly used for people who are new to Arabic.

I really don't see your point about Jesus? Jesus came with a message, we have proof of that. The prophets in the Bible are also in the Qur'an. The Bible is full of contradictions and Christianity is the only Abrahamic faith where the doctrines are different. Jesus spoke Aramaic and so he called God Alaha, one of the evidences of my claim is the term "hallalujah". If we look at the dead sea scrolls and original manuscripts we can see continuous changes. The Gospel is preached throughout the Bible. When Jesus supposedly was on the cross (as Christians believe), he called out "elahi elahi lama sabachtani". We are the ones that ask the Christians "Where is the gospel of Jesus", not the other way around.

You used 5:67 and used trinitarian Christians killing unitarian Christians as an example. I already told you countless of times, Allah has given men free will. People kill other people. Why would Muhammad SAW and his followers fight if Allah can just kill the polytheists with lightning or something? He doesn't, end of story. Why are you blaming God for men's mistakes? This is a really emotional way of thinking and this is also why people are leaving religion, they say "Oh well if God existed this wouldn't happen!". This is not rational, but emotional.

And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient, (Qur'an 2:155)

Here's a quick and full response on your question about (35:8): http://www.answering-christianity.com...

You used WikiIslam as a source, but if you go to the main page of WikiIslam then you can see...
"Welcome to WikiIslam, the online resource on Islam that ANYONE can edit."
WikiIslam has pages like 9/11, Islam and propaganda, inspiration of Muhammad, Bin Laden, Pedophilia, Satanic verses, Allah the Deceiver, etc.
Use your authentic sources please.
The website even goes out to call Dawah lies, so what can you really understand from this website?
You can go ahead and use the real wikipedia or Islamic sources.

Regarding the linguistic miracle
The challenge must be examined by specialised and trustworthy people when it is brought forth, Allah says bring your witnesses doesn't he? The challenge must hit the reader physically and spiritually. Prophet Muhammad did not convert others by changing sticks to snakes, or splitting seas in half, or by raising the dead, or by curing the blind, or by performing any of the Miracles that Allah Almighty's Messengers did in the past peace be upon all of them. Prophet Muhammad came with a Book revealed to Him by Allah SWT. You could see what effect this book had on people. If language in the Qur'an seems illogical then that logic needs to be rechecked because we've always seen the Qur'an as the ultimate miracle with no errors. Someone can say that a verse has an illogical construction, but they can't say it's wrong.
___________________________________________________________________________________________

Muhammad SAW couldn't have been a liar either. He was always seen as "the trustworthy", he had the best wives, he had wealth and everyone liked him. Why would he give that up? He was offered money, power and women for one thing in return and that was to end his religion. At the time of his death he was pennyless, at one point of his life he had to eat leafs. When someone lies it is always for some worldly gain, he lost everything instead. He lost many followers, his wives and his children because of his religion. So we can see from his biography that he was not a liar.

I am kind of busy now, so maybe we can talk about this later.
Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by CuriousFear 3 months ago
CuriousFear
Alright mate
Posted by Esiar 3 months ago
Esiar
@CuriousFear Don't be surprised if I forfeit the round. I really hate the structure of typing really long arguments, especially if you include timers and character limits (which limits the time I have to research topics you bring up and limits what I can say about it). It's a huge grind for me which takes away my enjoyment in debating too.
Posted by Esiar 3 months ago
Esiar
@Huron0 Not if he's all-powerful
Posted by Huron0 3 months ago
Huron0
Because an God is outside of our perception/Matrix (time, space, matter) obviously. It would have to use an avatar to communicate.
Posted by Esiar 3 months ago
Esiar
Note: When I said " Numbers aren't material, and the mind came up with it, but it isn't a spiritual concept, and they have proof of concept", I mean that numbers have proof of concept, not that spiritual concepts do.
Posted by Esiar 3 months ago
Esiar
I'll touch on what I couldn't get to in Round 3
Posted by PonticGreekMacedonian 3 months ago
PonticGreekMacedonian
Islam is the true religion of God? You know how evil that sounds! There is no true religion, the only true religion is loving God with all your heart! There is no true religion, I am Greek Orthodox!!!
Posted by Esiar 3 months ago
Esiar
@canis That's depending on what you define as God.
Posted by canis 3 months ago
canis
In present time. Meaning rigt now.. God = talk..No talk = no god...
Posted by Esiar 3 months ago
Esiar
@retroz Kind of both
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