The Instigator
Aurigae54
Pro (for)
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The Contender
masterofdoom
Con (against)
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There are Intellectual Differences between Races

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/16/2015 Category: People
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 652 times Debate No: 77776
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (7)
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Aurigae54

Pro

First Round is for agreement and definition only.

Due to the fact I am making a very controversial and politically incorrect argument, I want to first state that my argument is primarily based on the fact I have done research on both sides of the story and I feel that the evidence is overwhelmingly one sided. I hope that whoever debates me will refrain from using offensive slurs because of my viewpoint, and I hope they will offer constructive, intellectual arguments to the alternative viewpoint, not fueled by emotion and anger, but by fact and reason.

My predominant argument is that racially, Asians are the most intelligent on average, followed by whites, hispanics, and lastly blacks.

I will define race as a group of people who can be defined by physical differences. The main races I will be using in argument are as follows:

White - A group of people who are of European descent, with white skin and round eyes, and diverse hair and eye colors.

Asian - When I use the term Asian, I am specifically referring to East Asian (e.g. China, Japan, and Korea), and this is defined as someone who originates from said countries and has the distinct physical features (eye and skin) that define that race.

Black - People of African descent, with the darkest skin color

Non White Hispanic - I am defining Hispanic as a race, not an ethnicity, and it is used to encompass all people who originate from South American and Central American countries

Jews - I classify Jews as a race. While Judaism is a religion, Jewish people can be distinctly defined as a race due to several thousand years of segregation and exclusion. They have distinctly different noses and hair texture from ordinary white people, and can be easily distinguished from an ordinary European.

Other Defintions:

Intelligence - While I understand Intelligence is an incredibly complex and poorly understood subject, I will argue that we understand enough about intelligence for it to be observed. If you choose to accept my debate, I will go into further detail, but I will refrain from that in the introductory debate.

I also hope that whoever so chooses to debate me refrains from using individual examples. In other words, if you know an intelligent person who is black, do not use them as an example that proves me wrong. In my argument I am talking about groups of people who number in the 100 millions (with the exception of Jews, who number at about 15 million), I am not, in anyway talking about individuals.
masterofdoom

Con

I accept this debate. Good luck.
Debate Round No. 1
Aurigae54

Pro

In my opening argument, I will address the two most common counter arguments (one argument which has already been used twice in the comment section), and I will present a few points in support of my position.
Furthermore, in order to save space in my argument, I am not going to actively put in citations. If you wish for a citation concerning one of my assertions, I will provide it. However some things I say are my own personal analysis and I can't provide citation, if you disagree with it, provide counter evidence or an alternative analysis.

Section 1 " My response to Kelseyhill.
First of all, I don"t think you are completely understanding my point, due to a lack of clarification in my opening argument. I never stated, at any point, that I believe intellectual differences are purely genetic. I do believe, very strongly, genetics play an important role in determining intelligence, but yes, culture is also very important. That being said, races that are considered to be more intelligent typically have much higher standards for their children, and are much "pushier". I will go into detail about this later in my argument.

I also feel like you conceded my point already. And I feel like you agree with me more than you realize.
"Each race has its strengths that have been passed down for generations. You may say African Americans are incredibly strong or fast, but they have been born this way to adapt to the harsh society that they worked in. Whats to say had they not been born in a privileged area that they could be the most intelligent race?"
I completely agree with everything you said in this paragraph. Africans evolved in a society that selected for superior physical ability. There is a reason why professional sports are dominated by blacks. The NFL website states that over 68% of players are black. In the NBA in 2011, 78% of the players were black. Yet they make up 13% of the nations population. This domination of sports is clearly not cultural, your educational and cultural upbringing have virtually no effect on physical ability, meaning genetics must be responsible. And if genetics is responsible for physical ability, why would it not have something to do with mental ability too? And furthermore, you are correct, had blacks evolved in a land similar to Europe, and had blacks decided that they would no longer be nomadic, intelligence would have developed. But they didn"t. And that had a huge effect on their evolution, resulting in them being less intelligent.
Furthermore, I understand that intelligence is incredibly complex, I am not pretending I know the genetic cause of intelligence. I am simply going to provide statistics, evidence, and analysis of the subject.

Section 2 " My analysis on the culture and education argument
There are many scientific studies asserting the importance a person"s education and upbringing have on "intelligence". But let us look specifically at the Jews, the Asians, and the Whites for now. The median income of Jewish Americans is 99,000 dollars a year (44% of Jews report making over 100k a year). The median income of Asians is about 68,000 dollars a year. The median income of whites is 55,000 dollars a year. It is undeniable that at a certain point, income no longer offers a significant advantage to education and upbringing. It is equally undeniable that there are a significant number of Jews, Asians, and Whites who make a high enough income to where lack of education or upbringing is no longer an issue. Many studies have been done showing that when you adjust for income, the IQ of the average white is almost half a standard deviation below that of the average Asian, and almost a FULL standard deviation below that of the average Jew. Therefore, clearly, there is more to racial intelligence than simply education and income. Adjusting for both of those, the intellectual differences between races are still present.

Section 3 " IQ tests and Standardized Exams
Whenever IQ tests or standardized exams are cited as evidence of intelligence, people will argue and say that intelligence is too complex to be measured by a number. And they will also argue that there is discrimination and racism embedded in these exams, in other words, that it favors the success and strengths of white people. While I agree with the notion that standardized exams are NOT perfect and complete measurements of intelligence, they are, nonetheless, a somewhat reliable measurement of it. I will draw on personal experience for this argument.

Most intelligent people can tell by interaction if another person is intelligent. By the way they speak, by their ability to reason, by their ability to learn and process information, and many other ways. I have met many people who have scored high (by high, I mean the top 10 percentile) on an IQ test, the SAT, the LSAT, and/or another standardized exam designed to measure the ability to reason and think. Without knowing their ranking on these exams, it was still clear that they were intelligent simply by my interactions with them. The same can be said for the other side of the spectrum. People who legitimately score in the bottom 10% of these same exams, clearly and noticeably lack these features. I have never seen an exception. You are almost never going to see a dunce score well on a standardized exam, and you are equally unlikely to see a genius score low on a standardized exam. They may not be perfect, but they estimate intelligence pretty accurately.

If we look at the statistics, it is undebatable that the races score differently on intelligence exams. The order goes as follows from lowest to highest: black, Hispanic, white, east Asian, Jewish. A simple analysis of the world reflects this exact same hierarchy.

Let"s first look at history. The Jewish people make up less than 1% of the worlds population, yet they are responsible for 25% of nobel prizes won in math and science. The Jews have, hands down, made the most significant discoveries in technology and science. That is a part of the reason why the West became so successful and powerful in history, and why they surpassed Asia in technological advancement (there are many reasons as to why this happened, such as religion and philosophy, but I"m not going to go into detail, if Con would like me to elaborate more on this, I can).

Africans and African Americans on the other hand make up about a billion people worldwide, and they are responsible for 1 nobel prize in economics. To make it a percentage, 14% of the worlds population is responsible for 0.1% of nobel prizes in the maths and sciences. The sheer vastness of this gap alone should prove my point. There are wealthy and educated black people in the world, and numerically, I wouldn"t be surprised if they equaled the population of Jews in the world. Yet they are completely not represented in high level intellectual fields.

Now let"s look at today. Look at the quality of life in countries made up of and governed by each race. Black societies have the worst quality of life, followed by Hispanic societies, then white societies, then Asian societies, and then Jewish societies. Someone may use China as a counterargument, because China undoubtedly has a lower quality of life at the moment than western civilization. But keep in mind that China only broke free of subjugation 70 years ago, the west has been developing for over 200 years. Japan and South Korea are easily two of the most technologically advanced and successful countries the world. The difference is, Japan and South Korea are allied with the west, China is not. Israel has been around for an equal amount of time, only about 70 years, and they are an international power. They revived a dead language (Hebrew) over the span of 100 years. To quote Wikipedia:
"The process of Hebrew's return to regular usage is unique; there are no other examples of a natural language without any native speakers subsequently acquiring several million such native speakers, and no other examples of a sacred language becoming a national language with millions of "first language" speakers."
That is easily one of the greatest intellectual achievements in history. And who did it? The race that happens to do the best on all measurements of intelligence.

Furthermore, one of the most successful African nations in history was South Africa. When it was governed by white people, it had the strongest economy and found more success than just about any other nation in Africa. After 1994, when affirmative action policies were introduced, and blacks took over the government, the economy and the quality of life decreased, and crime increased heavily. The exact same thing happened in 1980 in Zimbabwe (Rhodesia). These were the only two nations in Africa where whites had political power.

Now lets analyze some business statistics from the US Census website. In America in 2007, there were 28.4 million small businesses, 22.6 million owned by whites (receipts averaged 455k per business per year), 1.9 million owned by blacks (receipts " 72k per business), 1.6 million by Asians (321k per business), 2.3 million by Hispanics (150k per business). Of all small businesses, 80% were owned by whites (64% of population), 6.7% by blacks (12% of pop), 5.6% by Asians (4.7% of pop), and 8% by Hispanics (16% of pop). There is, I believe, a psychological reason as to why Asians are not as dominant as whites in this field (the imperialistic nature of whites versus the more docile nature of Asians), but that is a debate for another time. I don't have enough space to analyze this, but its clear this just so happens to correlate almost exactly to standardized exam scores. And I think we can both agree you need to be intelligent to run and own a business.
masterofdoom

Con

masterofdoom forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Aurigae54

Pro

Extend - Will give Con another chance to address my first round arguments.
masterofdoom

Con

masterofdoom forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Aurigae54

Pro

Aurigae54 forfeited this round.
masterofdoom

Con

masterofdoom forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Aurigae54

Pro

Aurigae54 forfeited this round.
masterofdoom

Con

masterofdoom forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by parkerg27 1 year ago
parkerg27
I will admit that I may be totally wrong on this topic, but I also think that this question requires much more studies both in terms of quantity as well as depth seeing as there are 9 (or more) different types of intelligence and the two source studies provided seem rather flawed. Also, I'm not sure what the stance of the espn article is because it concludes with the statement "But your very first teams -- your family and your earliest support structures -- matter an awful lot too." which seems to support the theory that nurture trumps nature. But in response to what you said about " So that leaves genetics or hard work.", your first article stated that "In one case, a twin practiced 20,228 hours more than his twin, but still had the same musical ability as the other twin.", which makes absolutely no sense unless there is some major missing factor/s present here, which I believe there is. Maybe it has something to do with "She looked at how well people could detect differences in pitch, distinguish different melodies and recognize different rhythms.", and while these 3 things are music-related, they seem like things that an average child can do. Maybe the 20k practice hour person didn't invest much time in practicing those 3 specific skills, which would explain the lack of significant skill difference, somewhat akin to how 20k hours in bmx won't necessarily make you a great fencer. In any case neither of the sources provides strikes be as being particularly reliable as evidence, but I haven't really cited anything since high school so I suppose you win by default.

But I do agree with you that "The world would be better off for all the races if we identified the problem at its root and worked together to overcome it." (Plus I agree that political correctness is complete non-sense). Running out of space but I'll just end by saying that I think this topic deserves much more studying because of how valuable it can be in improving educational systems worldwide.
Posted by Aurigae54 1 year ago
Aurigae54
Lastly

I agree with what you said at the end, all races do have intelligent people in them, and we, as human beings , do need to aim for improving the world in terms of general prosperity and technological advancement as a whole.

My purpose for making this debate is because firstly, I'm curious as to what people who disagree with me believe and base their beliefs on,

Secondly, and most importantly, I believe that if my point of view is correct, which I think it is, it needs to be understood and accepted by the community. It is a sad and dangerous thing when something that is a scientific fact is ignored, shunned, and deemed as politically incorrect. Blaming black failure in the intellectual fields solely on racism and discrimination, refusing to acknowledge there is a genetic reason, and then going even further to enact social policies based on that belief only creates animosity between the races. The world would be better off for all the races if we identified the problem at its root and worked together to overcome it.
Posted by Aurigae54 1 year ago
Aurigae54
Comment 2:

In a study done on NBA players from 1994 to 2004, it was shown that although 45% of black children lived below $22000 a year during that time span, only 34% of black NBA were raised in that kind of environment. And get this " not a single white athlete came from a background that bad or worse. Clearly, opportunity and environment are very important in determining a person"s athletic success, yet there is still an incredibly large gap of success. So that leaves genetics or hard work.

Well, in another study done on musical ability in identical twins, it was shown that if one twin put in a large amount of work, and the other only put in a slight amount, there was not that great of difference in their abilities. For more detail, I advise you to read the two articles I link.

Therefore, once you connect those two studies, it is clear that there is only one missing variable. Genetics. Notice that there were no white kids who happened to have the "innate talent" to succeed from a very poor income. Furthermore, no matter how hard they worked, not a single one was able to get that far, while 34% of blacks in the NBA "were- able to do so.

I will rest my case for now, but if you want further proof that the races do have genetic differences, I will post my round 3 argument later. Talking about known, understood, and scientifically accepted differences between the races in medicine and disease.

http://www.livescience.com...
http://espn.go.com...
Posted by Aurigae54 1 year ago
Aurigae54
Comment 1:
So, correct me if I am wrong, but according to these statements you made:

I'm a white male, top 10th percentile IQ, and while I'm fine with this notion of having a naturally higher intelligence because of me being white
Regardless of if there is a difference of intelligence between races
It's not about where you start, it's about what you do to get yourself as high as possible.

I am assuming that you believe that there may be an intellectual/physical difference between races. You just disagree with my proposal that there is a genetic basis, and instead you offer the proposal of innate ability, opportunity/environment, and hard work.

In which case I ask you, how does one receive talent or innate ability? You are born with it, meaning it must be genetic. So the question to ask is, do innate abilities have any correlation with race? Well. Since you specifically attacked my physical ability argument, and I have not addressed it in my debate with Con, I"ll defend that position here.
Posted by parkerg27 1 year ago
parkerg27
I'm a white male, top 10th percentile IQ, and while I'm fine with this notion of having a naturally higher intelligence because of me being white, I disagree with the notion of intelligence being genetic, and I also disagree with physical abilities being genetic.

Basically, and excuse me for any lack of elegance as I'm not really putting any effort into elegance, I see the entire thing as a question of natural talents vs. developed skills. If we take one high-potential and one low-potential individual and give the high-potential individual in a "low opportunity" environment while also placing the low-potential individual in a "high opportunity" environment then, given that both people have equal levels of determination or "drive to succeed" if you will, then the low-potential/high-opportunity individual will surely surpass the high-potential/low-opportunity individual.

It's not about where you start, it's about what you do to get yourself as high as possible.

"The separation of talent and skill is one of the greatest misunderstood concepts for people who are trying to excel, who have dreams, who want to do things. Talent you have naturally. Skill is only developed by hours and hours and hours of beating on your craft." - Will Smith

Ok, let me say I am mostly German/Russian, so I could easily find things to say about why I come from some of the most intelligent or physically-gifted people in the world, and maybe I do, but regardless it's a mute point because the more important question here is: "What can we, as a collective of humans spread across earth, do to ensure maximum progress for humanity as a whole both in terms of general prosperity as well as technological/scientific advancement?"

Regardless of if there is a difference of intelligence between races, can we at least agree that every race contains many intelligent individuals capable of helping make this world a much better place if placed in an environment which supports rather than restric
Posted by Kelseyhill 1 year ago
Kelseyhill
The reasons for this is because of social aspects. Who's to define intelligence? If intelligence was about hunting or storytelling then Aboriginals would be the most intelligent people on earth. In early eras each race passed on generations of what was deemed important to society. In that mix somehow some Asian families became extremely "pushy" for their children to succeed. Is this because they are naturally born this way and of such intelligence? Or is it because they have been warned about poverty and what comes to a life with no education? Because they love their children? Because its culturally encouraged and accepted?

Each race has its strengths that have been passed down for generations. You may say African Americans are incredibly strong or fast, but they have been born this way to adapt to the harsh society that they worked in. Whats to say had they not been born in a privileged area that they could be the most intelligent race?

There are too many types of intelligence and too many factors (area, wealth etc.) i don't believe a race is born to dominate the rest intellectually. I believe our strengths, say athletic, intelligent or whatever it may be, come from a long line of influence and adapting.
Posted by hldemi 1 year ago
hldemi
How can you prove that this statistics is a result of racial difference and not of cultural/educational difference ?
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