The Instigator
Ahmed.M
Pro (for)
Winning
22 Points
The Contender
TheDiabolicDebater
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

There are Sound Philosophical Arguments for the Existence of Allah

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Post Voting Period
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after 4 votes the winner is...
Ahmed.M
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/8/2012 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,068 times Debate No: 23491
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
Votes (4)

 

Ahmed.M

Pro

= = = = Debate Guidlines = = = =


This debate is about the philosophical arguments for the existence of Allah which Muslims worship. I will be arguing that there are sound arguments for the existence of Allah outside and inside of the Quran. My opponent must also bring forth arguments against the existence of Allah (mimimum at least a general monotheistic God). This is a straightforward debate, no semantics please.


= = = = Why is God called Allah in Islam? = = = =


The name Allah is much better title then that of God which most people use today. The name Allah reflects some of the attributes of a true monotheistic God , because the name Allah is neither masculine nor feminine and cannot be pluralized. The name Allah a pure arabic word. However, the name God can be changed to Gods or Goddesses which is unbeffiting of Allah (God).


Regarding the definition of Allah (Also fits general concept of God, monotheism) , I will use Surah Al Ikhlas in the Quran:


==Surah Al Ikhlas Chapter 112 Verses 1-4==


“Say: He is Allah, the One and Only.

Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.

He begetteth not, nor is He begotten.

And there is none like unto Him.”


Also I (and if my opponent uses) will be using Abdullah Yusuf Ali's interpretation of the Quran so that the interpretations of verses either me or my opponent use aren't twisted to suit our goals but so that the usage of the verses are more truthful and objective in nature even though Ali's interpretation may be flawed (as all are).


One can find all the chapters of the Quran by changing the number in the URL. For example the URL for chapter 2 of the Quran is:


http://scholaris.com...


and the URL is for Chapter 7 of the Quran is:


http://scholaris.com...


The only difference between the chapters are the numbers, one is 002 (for chapter 2) and the other 007 (for chapter 7).


= = = = = Debate Format = = = = =


1. First Round is for acceptance only

2. Opening Arguments

3. Rebuttals/Arguments

4. Closing statements/Rebuttals


If my opponent accepts the debate, he accepts all the conditions and definitions outlined in this round. If he accepts than violates any of the rules and conditions I have stated, points should be awarded to me.


If my opponent wants any clarifications, please address before accepting, No semantics.

TheDiabolicDebater

Con

I accept based on the understanding that I will be arguing against a monotheistic god. It is my opponents burden to prove not only that there are sound arguments for god, but he must also prove that god is Allah.

Pro, please state your case.
Debate Round No. 1
Ahmed.M

Pro

= = = => Contentions <= = = =


1. Cosmological Argument


P1 Everything observed inside the universe is contingent

P2 A sequence of causally related contingent beings cannot be infinite
P3 A sequence of causally related contingent beings must be finite

P4 \ there must be a non-contingent/eternally existing at the beginning of the chain of contingent beings a.k.a the First Cause [1]


P1 Everything observed inside the universe is contingent


A being which is contingent exists due to another cause, reason, conditions etc. It owes it's existence to something else.


Contingent:

Logic True only under certain conditions; not necessarily or universally true: a contingent proposition.[2]


When one analyzes everything that has been observed in this universe we see that everything is contingent. All life if one doesn't notice is contingent. All life would not have existed without food, water, and sunlight (certain conditions). Large celestial bodies are also contingent. The earth as we know it could only have existed due to the precise conditions such as the formation of the magnetic field, atmospheric layer, and water. Even the sun which most of what is on earth is contingent upon is also contingent upon a cause external to itself (hydrogen gas and dust, nebula). Quantum fluctuations are also contingent because they would not exist without the field (conditions).


P2 A sequence of causally related contingent beings cannot be infinite


Each of the contingent beings owes it's existence to something else. One contingent being exists because of another contingent being and that contingent being exists because of another.


A-->B-->C-->D... (and so on)


This series of casually related contingent beings can either be of two things: infinite or finite. It cannot be infinte for 2 main reasons.


I. An infinte sequence would not explain the existence of the entire sequence. What does the entire set owe it's existence to, something else then something else and so on? This is an inadequate explanation for the entire set.


II. An infinite sequence cannot exist since there is no ultimate source and all the contingent beings would not exist as we know it. If there is no source for the contingent beings, the entire set would never have existed , but it does exist. An example to clarify:


(a). Imagine a train with an infinite number of boxcars, the train would not move because there is still no source for the motion despite all the box cars. The only way for the train to move is if there is the engine or the source for the motion of the entire train otherwise the train will not move.

The only option that remains is that the sequence of casually related contingent beings must be finite.



P3 A sequence of causally related contingent beings must be finite


If the series is not infinite than it must be finite. As was shown in the example, there cannot be an infinte number of boxcars that are in motion, but it is certain that there can be a finite series of boxcars with the source, the engine at the beginning.


Similarily the sequence of contingent beings cannot be infinte and still exist. It must be finite if the contingent beings are to exist. They must ultimately rely on a supreme source which is non-contingent.


P4 \ there must be a non-contingent/eternally existing being at the beginning of the chain of contingent beings a.k.a the First Cause



2. Teleological Argument


P1 If natural beings have telos', then an intentional and ordering mind exists

P2 Natural beings have telos'

P3 \ an intentional and ordering mind exists


P1 If natural beings have telos', then an intentional and ordering mind exists


What is a telos you might ask? Teleology comes from the root word telos means to have a purpose, goal, function etc. If a natural being has a telos, then it has a specific purpose and function. If natural beings have telos' than this strongly implies that there is some kind of intentionality and order which is at work. Intentionality and order is a feature of minds. So if natural beings have a telos' then an intentional and ordering mind exists.


P2 Natural beings have telos'


It is quite evident that natural beings do have telos'. When one is studying the organs of the human body in biology class the function of an organ is bound to be discussed. For example, the telos of the stomach is mainly disgestion. A stomach digests food because that is it's main purpose (telos). Most of the organs in the human body for example, have a telos and are working together in unison. The major discipline of medicine with specialists on each of the major organs work to restore organs to their proper function (telos). Even inorganic (non-living) beings have telos' with regards to processes such as the water and rock cycles. David S. Oderburg says:


what is the function of condensation in the water cycle? it is the function of causing precipitation. what is the role played by precipitation in the water cycle? it brings about later evaporation. what function do igneous rocks perform in the rock cycle? They become sedimentary rock with the aid of exposure, sedimentation and pressure, and in addition through heat and pressure they become metamorphic rock...

...This is just how a geologist or a hydrologist talks about the cycles that are the object of their study. ‘How does evaporation function in the water cycle?’ ‘It does such-and-such.’.....Yet function talk is a kind of teleological talk. In this highly attenuated sense, then, we can find teleology in the inorganic realm”[3]


P3 \ an intentional and ordering intellect exists



3. Profound knowledge in the Quran, brought to light in recent centuries


Origins of Groundwater


==Surah Az Zumar Chapter 39 Verse 21==


The Quran mentions the origins of groundwater and springs as being rain which goes through the earth. This is scientifically accurate [4]. One might try to argue that this has been copied or plagiarized from Greek philosophers but the fact of the matter is that none of the famous Greek philosophers had a clue about this fact. The Water Problems Institute, Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow, Russia states:


Aspects of groundwater origin were considered in many projects and philosophic works of the ancient Greek and Roman philosophers (Miletsky, Plato, Aristotle, Kar, Seneka, Pollio etc). The first quantitative concepts of groundwater formation due to infiltration of atmospheric precipitation were formed by French scientists P. Perro and E. Marriott in the middle of the eighteenth century based on the study of water balance in the Seine River” [5]


This is strong evidence that the origins of groundwater or springs were not known or even conceived of during the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) but the Quran mentions this amazing fact many centuries ago.


The Queen of Sheba and Sun Worship


==Surah An Naml Chapter 27 Verses 22-24==


Prophet Sulaiman (peace be upon him) was informed by the Hoopoe bird that he saw the people of Sheba and the Queen. The Quran mentions that they were worshipping a sun diety. The best modern evidence for the location of the kingdom of Queen Sheba is Southern Arabia around Yemen [6][7]. The national God of Sheba was called Almaqah. For a long time, people thought that this was a lunar diety. Recent investigations have shown that the characteristics represent a solar diety. This reveals a historical precision on the Quran with recent data (2012) brought to light.


Recent studies underline that the symbols of the bull's head and the vine motif that are associated with him are solar and Dionysiac attributes and are more consistent with a sun god, a male consort of the sun goddess.[8]


Conclusions

This being is eternally existing and is uncaused since it is the First Cause. It has a mind of tremendous intellect by which all teleology comes from. The last argument shows the knowledge in the Quran could not have been from anyone in 6th century Arabia implying a supernatural source namely, Allah.


http://www.debate.org...

TheDiabolicDebater

Con

TheDiabolicDebater forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Ahmed.M

Pro

Unfortunately my opponent has forfeited R2. I was looking forward to reading his opening arguments. Since my opponent's has presented no arguments I can use this round as an opportunity to expand upon my case for the existence of Allah.


When one is trying to verify or deny the existence of a specific God in this case Allah, one must look at the scripture which that religion claims to be from the supernatural (the Quran). Are there aspects of the Quran which make it miraculous today? I will further highlight verses in the Quran from various fields which either could not have possibly been known in sixth century Arabia or reveal extreme precision on the part of the Quran. Cumulatively this heavily implies that it came from Allah.


= = = => Contentions <= = = =

The Lost City of Iram


The Glorious Quran says:


==Surah Al Fajr Chapter 89 Verses 6-8==

Seest thou not how thy Lord dealt with the 'Ad (people).

Of the (city of) Iram, with lofty pillars.

The like of which were not produced in (all) the land?”


In these verses, only the Quran mentions a city by the specific name of Iram which has been considered fiction because of the complete lack of historical evidence for it. It was considered non-existent by most historians throughout the centuries for these reasons. However, recent archeological discoveries provide proof for the city mentioned in the Quran. In the December 1978 edition of the National Geographic, the discoveries of the Ebla tablets have revealed much information about the ancient city. What was astonishing was the mention of another ancient city in the tablets by the name of Iram. It says in the article:


“The names of cities thought to have been founded much later, such as Beirut and Byblos, leap from the tablets. Damascus and Gaza are mentioned, as well as two of the Biblical cities of the plain, Sodom and Gomorrah. Also included is Iram, an obscure city referred to in Sura 89 of the Koran.” [1]


The Quranic distinction between Pharaoh and King


In the Quran during the time of Prophet Yusuf (Joseph), the ruler of Egypt is referred to only as King. During the time of Moses, the ruler of Egypt is strictly referred to as Pharaoh. Chronologically, the story of Yusuf (Joseph) takes place before the story of Muusa (Moses) in the Quran (peace be upon both prophets).


==Surah Yusuf Chapter 12 Verse 43==

The king (of Egypt) said: "I do see (in a vision) seven fat kine, whom seven lean ones devour, and seven green ears of corn, and seven (others) withered. O ye chiefs! Expound to me my vision if it be that ye can interpret visions."


==Surah Yusuf Chapter 12 Verse 72==

They said: "We miss the great beaker of the king; for him who produces it, is (the reward of) a camel load; I will be bound by it.”


==Surah Al Araf Chapter 7 Verse 104==

“Moses said: "O Pharaoh! I am a messenger from the Lord of the worlds.”


==Surah Yunus Chapter 10 Verse 75==

“Then after them sent We Moses and Aaron to Pharaoh and his chiefs with Our Signs. But they were arrogant: they were a people in sin.”


From here we can see the ruler of Egypt during the time of Moses is strictly referred to as Pharaoh and that the ruler of Egypt during the time of Prophet Yusuf (Joseph) is referred to only as King (peace be upon the prophets). There are historical reasons for these clear distinctions within the Quran. The time line of Ancient Egypt is provided by the National Geographic [2].It is a well known fact historically that the title of Pharaoh began to come into use in the New Kingdom era of Egypt [3][4]. Before the New Kingdom era they use to refer to the ruler as king not Pharaoh. During the Middle Kingdom for example, the rulers were Theban Kings. So the title Pharaoh is used after the title king is used in ancient Egyptian history. Since the Quran is from Allah, we would expect the Quran to differentiate between this and this is exactly what it does. This matches up exactly with the Quran which makes these key distinctions.


To Summarize: The Quran says the title King was used before Pharaoh, Ancient Egyptian history shows that the title King was used before Pharaoh


Knowledge of heiroglyphics was completely lost during the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), yet the Quran contains precise chronological information regarding the rulers of Egypt.



Precise wording of the Quran


==Surah Al Imran Chapter 3 Verses 96-97==

The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings.

In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures.”


The name Bakka is an ancient name and another name for Makka, specifically it is for the place of the Kaaba where Muslims perform pilgrimage [5]. The 'b' and the 'm' are interchangable as explained. The root word of Bakka in Arabic means to crowd, to suffocate (stifling) etc [6]. When we analyze the second verse after Bakka is used, this reveals a precision on the use of words within the specific context. The next verse then talks about the obligation of pilgrimage and the word Bakka is a much better word to use then Makka in this context since Bakka specifically refers to the Kaaba and the Kaaba is a place which is crowded with pilgrims. This reveals a precision of the usage of words in the Quran.


==Surah As Saffat Chapter 37 Verses 140-144==

When he ran away (like a slave from captivity) to the ship (fully) laden.

He (agreed to) cast lots, and he was condemned.

Then the big Fish did swallow him, and he had done acts worthy of blame.

Had it not been that he (repented and) glorified Allah.

He would certainly have remained inside the Fish till the Day of Resurrection.”


The arabic word for running away/fleeing is abaqa which is used specifically for a runaway slave as shown in the brackets in the verse. This opens up a profound meaning. These verses talk about Prophet Yunus (Jonah) (peace be upon him) and how he ran away from his duty as a Prophet because of how people ignored and paid no attention to him. He did not wait for Allah to tell him to stop his prophetic duties but stopped of his own accord. Prophet Yunus (peace be upon him) is not a slave in the usual sense (of a human master), but a slave and follower of Allah and he is running away from the duties and commands Allah has given him as a Prophet. This precise wording has moral and spiritual implications as well as the obvious physical implication.


==>Conclusions<==
The Quran contains historical and scientific facts which were inconceivable during the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). As a book of literature, the Quran uses precise words in correct contexts which opens up profound meaning. It is hard to fathom how Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) could have the time to think about these small and specific details while constantly on the move ever since he declared prophethood. It seems very reasonable to believe it came from exactly where this profound book says it comes from, Allah.


The resolution is affirmed.

Sources
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TheDiabolicDebater

Con

I'm really sorry about that. I had other commitments so I wasn't able to post my response on time. Vote Pro.
Debate Round No. 3
Ahmed.M

Pro

Unfortunately my opponent couldn't commit to the debate and has conceded, maybe next time. Vote Pro.
Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Wallstreetatheist 4 years ago
Wallstreetatheist
You sly dog, you!
Posted by Ahmed.M 4 years ago
Ahmed.M
see*
Posted by Ahmed.M 4 years ago
Ahmed.M
We are not using the Quran as a standard of proof, it was only used as a definition for Allah. Just accept the debate man, and you will how I will use the Quran.

This debate is almost like all other God debates except I have a heavier BOP that is all.
Posted by TheDiabolicDebater 4 years ago
TheDiabolicDebater
How does that work? If we are going to use the Quran as a standard of proof, you would first have to prove that the Quran is completely factual.
Posted by Ahmed.M 4 years ago
Ahmed.M
I will use the Quran as proof.
Posted by TheDiabolicDebater 4 years ago
TheDiabolicDebater
Other than defining Allah, what purpose will the Quran serve in the debate?
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by socialpinko 4 years ago
socialpinko
Ahmed.MTheDiabolicDebaterTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Competent arguments from Pro, it's a shame Con could not stick around to challenge them. Vote to Pro for concession and forfeit.
Vote Placed by THEBOMB 4 years ago
THEBOMB
Ahmed.MTheDiabolicDebaterTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: hhmmmm....hard choice...
Vote Placed by bossyburrito 4 years ago
bossyburrito
Ahmed.MTheDiabolicDebaterTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: AMAZING DEBATE RIGHT HERE PEOPLE. I ALMOST GAVE BEST ARGUMENTS TO CON, BECAUSE OF THE GROUNDBREAKING VIEW OF THE UNIVERSE "FULLSTOP". WRITE THIS DEBATE DOWN IN YOUR HISTORY BOOKS KIDS
Vote Placed by 16kadams 4 years ago
16kadams
Ahmed.MTheDiabolicDebaterTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: FF