The Instigator
Aleksa_Stojkovic
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
SilverishGoldNova
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

There aren't contradictions in the Bible

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/15/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 799 times Debate No: 106738
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (24)
Votes (0)

 

Aleksa_Stojkovic

Pro

The Two Conditions for the Debate

(1) The King James Bible is the only version of the Bible that can be used in this debate.

(2) You can only provide one contradiction at a time, not multiple. This ensures a clear debate.
SilverishGoldNova

Con

Since the bible is not one book but is instead a collection of 66 books, alot of which are very long, it is bound to have contradictions in it.

Since I can only write one contradiction at a time, I will provide, just one.

- Numbers 25:1-9 -

"And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab. And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods. And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel. And the Lord said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun, that the fierce anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel. And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor. And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand; And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel. And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand."

TL:DR: The Israelites dwelt in Shittim and commited whoredom with the daughters of Moab, and God struck them with a plauge, killing 24,000.

This number randomly decreases later however.

- 1 Corinthians 10:8 -

"Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand."

The bible is now implying that only 23,000 people died.

This is a pretty clear and undeniable contradiction.


Verses:

https://www.biblegateway.com...
https://www.biblegateway.com...

Debate Round No. 1
Aleksa_Stojkovic

Pro

It is of great importance to carefully consider every word of these verses, because the solution always lies in these words that we so often dismiss, words that we do not even notice. In this case that you have brought forth, the answer lies clearly inside the verses - one does not even have to consider the context to arrive at the solution. I also would like to thank you for respecting the condition of posting one apparent contradiction at a time, because that serves to reduce the confusion that so often appears in these debates, and enables the voters to have a clearer picture as to who clearly won the debate.

In Numbers 25:1-9, an ongoing plague issued by the Lord makes the Israelites die, and by the time the plague ends, a total of 24,000 of them have died by the plague - notice, a time period is missing, we do not know exactly how long of a time it took for the plague to kill a total of 24,000 Israelites, we only know that it was 24,000. On the other hand, in 1 Corinthians 10:8, a time period is not missing, there Paul specifically wrote that 23,000 of the Israelites fell in one day. Considering this fact, we can arrive at the conclusion in a perfectly logical fashion, that 23,000 of the Israelites could have fallen in one day, with 1,000 more falling the previous, or next day. If you feel likee there are other contradictions to address, please do provide.


SilverishGoldNova

Con

Thank you for your arguments. I will now be providing another contradiction. I hope we can agree that by next round, I will respond to both verse rebuttals.

Another obvious contradiction I would like to point is the age of Jehoiachin.

2 Kings 24:8


"Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. His mother’s name was Nehushtadaughter of Elnathan; she was from Jerusalem."

2 Chronicles 36:9

"Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord."

Contradiction:

2 Kings 24:8 implies that Jehoiachin was 18 years old when he became king. However, the bible later implies he was only 8.

Verses:

https://www.biblegateway.com...
https://www.biblegateway.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Aleksa_Stojkovic

Pro

In 2 Chronicles 36:9, we see that Jehoiachin began to reign, while in 2 Kings 24:8 we see that Jehoiachin became king. This means that Jehoiachin had a reign period from eight years of age, prior to becoming king at eighteen years of age. It is not uncommon for fathers to assign a type of rulership to their sons in order to secure succession - I personally do not understand why this has to be a contradiction, you would have to clarify a little more on that in order for me to provide a satisfactory response to what you perceive is the issue.

Co-regency is definitely not unheard of in the Bible. For instance, Jotham was given authority by King Uzziah (2 Chronicles 26:21) when King Uzziah noticed that there was a need for that move. In that particular case, King Uzziah was too sick to rule. In the case of Jehioachin and his father, there may have been other issues, even involving his mother, who perhaps pressured the king to secure succession for her biological son and not one of the younger sons who were not directly her sons. Like I said before, I do not see the contradiction here, but I'll wait for your clarification on that. If you feel like you'd rather address my response to the first contradiction that you presneted instead of continuing on this one, then that is fine with me too.
SilverishGoldNova

Con

I will be responding to my opponents verse rebuttals in this round.

Daughters of Moab Contradiction:

Yet, in the same chapter, the bible says that a woman named Cozbi died "in the day of the plauge" in Numbers 25:18.

The bible first says 24,000 people died, then later says 23,000 died. Each in 1 day.

https://www.biblegateway.com...

Age of Jehoiachin Contradiction:

Yet both verses implied he only reigned for 3 months.

If we are going to argue that this is due to co-regency, then you would have to say that Jehoiachin's father was king for 10 years. However, the bible implies that he was King for 11 years, before being taken into captivity by the Babylonians. Now, continuing with your co-regency logic, this would only create a new contradiction: This would make him 19 years old.

We can see this in 2 Chronicles 36:5-10


Sources:

https://www.biblegateway.com...

Just one more contradiction:

There are almost 60 verses in the bible telling us to fear god. There is a full list down below.

The bible also tells us multiple times (such as the example listed below) to love God.

1 John 4:18: "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."


http://bibviz.com...

https://www.biblegateway.com...

https://www.biblegateway.com...


Debate Round No. 3
Aleksa_Stojkovic

Pro

[Regarding the 24,000 vs 23,000] I accept your objection, and I concede that I was wrong when I proposed that the plague lasted for more than one day, and that the number of casualties are different because they were from different days of the plague. However, I returned to the scriptures, and found another solution, that I believe to be correct: in 1 Corinthians 10:8, from the context, we understand that Paul was referring to the Israelites when he wrote "neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed" but the same can not be said for Numbers 25:1-9 where the 24,000 are referred to as "those that died in the plague" instead of Israelites. We know, from verses such as Numbers 25:18, that non-Israelites have been killed in the plague. Therefore, the obvious conclusion that I am reaching, considering 1 Corinthians 10:8, Numbers 25:1-9, and Numbers 25:18, is that 23,000 of the Israelites were killed, and 1,000 of the non-Israelites were killed, in total 24,000 of the people were killed.

[Regarding the age of Jehoiachin] I would argue that the eleven years of reign (2 Chronicles 36:5-10) does not disprove my position, because the king (Jehioachin's father) could have ruled for one year before appointing his son to rule alongside him - I do not believe that there is a place where it states that Jehoiakim elevated the status of his son from the beginning of his reign. If I am missing out on something in what I have stated here, please do make me aware of that. Concerning the initial part of your objection, that both verses imply a reign of 3 months for Jehoiachin, even thought that seems statistically unlikely, it could have been the case, and can therefore from a technical standpoint not be considered conclusive evidence of a contradiction. However, it might be that at a later point in this debate, I come to an understanding that is different to my current understanding. This is what has come to happen in my interpretation of the 24,000 vs 23,000 contradiction (rather, apparent contradiction).

[Regarding fear versus love] Sometimes, fear can be defined as reverential awe, and other times, fear can be defined as horror. I believe that authors often use the reverential awe definition when speaking of fearing God, and that is compatible with John's statement that love and fear can not co-exist, for the fear that he speaks of is not reverential awe, but fear that torments. Of course, in response to this, you could say that often times we are told to fear the punishment of God, and that is certainly not reverential awe, but tormenting fear, exactly the type of fear that John was talking about. In these cases, we should consider the context, and the context often times (perhaps always) is the author addressing unbelievers or sinners, and not the righteous believers. I do not know where we will take this debate from here. Perhaps you are going to defend your objections, present more contradictions, or something else. In any case, I can say that it has been a very exciting discussion so far.
SilverishGoldNova

Con

I decided I would use this round to provide another contradiction. Also, the debate rules allow us to only provide 1 contradiction at a time (but not discuss)

However, I'd first like to point out something else in the Kings thing which I forgot to mention. I already took the Chronicles verses out of isolation, but heres the same with Kings.

2 Kings 23:36-2 Kings 24:1-10:

https://www.biblegateway.com...

Now, to my contradiction.

I could probably provide hundreds of contradictions caused by the Chronicles series, but I won't.

1 Kings 4:26: "And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen."

2 Chronicles 9:25: "And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem."

https://www.biblegateway.com...
Debate Round No. 4
Aleksa_Stojkovic

Pro

I thank you for respecting the debate rules.

Regarding Solomon's property, whether there were forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, or whether there were four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, I believe the simplicity of the solution here is beautiful.

1 Kings 4:26 states that there were forty thousand stalls of horses, for his chariots, while 2 Chronicles 9:25 states that there were four thousand stalls for horses and chariots. Are you able to see the difference in these verses?

1 Kings 4:26 does describe that Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses, that are to be taken into use for his chariots, but does not provide information on how many chariots were in his possession. However, Chronicles does:

"And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots..." This verse quite clearly states that there were 4,000 stalls that could accompany horses and chariots, which is entirely different from stalls that are for horses specifically.

Interesting point: If it indeed be true that 40,000 are for horses, while 4,000 for horses and chariots, then there would be about 10 horses per chariot, which is a perfectly reasonable number for a wealthy kingdom such as his.
SilverishGoldNova

Con

I accept your objection. This has been a good debate

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

800,000 men were fighting in Israel: 2 Samuel 24:9
1,100,000 men were fighting in Israel: 1 Chronicles 21:5

454 Children of Adin: Ezra 2:15
655 Children of Adin: Nehemiah 7:20

Ahaziah was 22: 2 Kings 8:26
Ahaziah was 42: 2 Chronicles 22:2

Jacob was Joseph's Father: Matthew 1:16
Heli was Joseph's Father: Luke 3:23

David Captured 700 Horsemen: 2 Samuel 8:4
David Captured 7,000 Horsemen: 1 Chronicles 18:4
Debate Round No. 5
24 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Aleksa_Stojkovic 5 months ago
Aleksa_Stojkovic
Yes, that has been said, but I believe this debate has shown that those contradictions, if they do exist, are extremely hard to find, seeing that I have been able to come up with logical solutions to the ones presented.
Posted by SilverishGoldNova 5 months ago
SilverishGoldNova
Well this has been a good debate, and now it's time to vote.

As me and Squonk have said multiple times, the bible is a collection of scrolls written over thousands of years by different people in different situations.
Posted by Aleksa_Stojkovic 5 months ago
Aleksa_Stojkovic
For Christians across the globe who believe that God is the original author of the scriptures, it is quite a radical conclusion to reach, that some of the verses may be in contradiction - meaning, God is not competent.

While it may not seem too radical for Christians who are more liberal in their views, or those who consider themselves of other beliefs or no beliefs at all - it is definitely radical for a Christian such as myself, and for a large number of others.
Posted by squonk 5 months ago
squonk
Aleksa, it's not a "radical standpoint" to suggest that 2 verses contradict each other. We're dealing with a compilation of scrolls, written over thousands of years. It's "radical" (and stupid) to think that there are NO contradictions.
Posted by Aleksa_Stojkovic 5 months ago
Aleksa_Stojkovic
+ desperation I define as going to unreasonable lengths and unlikelyhoods to justify a position, and I have done no such thing, I have merely pointed out the various possibilities that have to be considered before taking the radical standpoint that two verses contradict eachother.
Posted by Aleksa_Stojkovic 5 months ago
Aleksa_Stojkovic
I do not see desperation in anything that I have written. Please, do point it out. Thanks.
Posted by squonk 5 months ago
squonk
"For students who come into seminary with a view that the Bible is completely, absolutely, one hundred percent without error, the realization that most critical scholars have a very different view can come as a real shock to their systems. And once these students open the floodgates by admitting there might be mistakes in the Bible, their understanding of Scripture takes a radical turn. The more they read the text carefully and intensely, the more mistakes they find, and they begin to see that in fact the Bible makes better sense if you acknowledge its inconsistencies instead of staunchly insisting that there aren"t any, even when they are staring you in the face." - Bart D. Ehrman
Posted by SilverishGoldNova 5 months ago
SilverishGoldNova
Yeah, it seems Aleska is in shambles at this point. I am writing my arguments still.
Posted by squonk 5 months ago
squonk
I love how you brought up 2 Chronicles 26:2, because this verse is really the nail in your coffin. This verse proves that if the Chronicler INTENDED to say that Jehoiachin co-reigned with Jehoiakim, HE WOULD HAVE SAID SO.
Posted by SilverishGoldNova 5 months ago
SilverishGoldNova
I will post my rebuttal tomorrow. But right now it seems like your arguments are getting desperate.
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