The Instigator
VenomousNinja
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Puck
Con (against)
Winning
48 Points

There is Nothing in this World that we can be Completely sure of.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 8 votes the winner is...
Puck
Started: 9/4/2008 Category: Science
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,230 times Debate No: 5270
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (37)
Votes (8)

 

VenomousNinja

Pro

I don't really have a good opening argument for this, so I'll simply let my opponent go first. Easy enough, no?
Puck

Con

I'll propose two for you.

1. Existence exists

2. Law of non contradiction.

It should be noted that the ability to question something is no proof of its non validity. That is, just because you may be unsure of it, does not equate to its non absoluteness.
Debate Round No. 1
VenomousNinja

Pro

Haha, looks like I have my work cut out for me.
This should be fun.

Anyway,
"1. Existence exists"
Can you be completely sure? That is what this debate is all about, after all. Can you be sure that we truly exist, that we are not some non-existant beings that wish to exist? Can you be sure that, after all, we used to exist, but we do not exist any more? That this is all a simple by-product of a want to still exist? It's all completely possible.

"2. Law of non contradiction."
The law of non contradiction, which states that two opposing viewpoints cannot be both true at the same time, has nothing to do with it. At least, I don't see what it has anything to do with our debate. Would you be so kind as to explain why you proposed the law?

"It should be noted that the ability to question something is no proof of its non validity. That is, just because you may be unsure of it, does not equate to its non absoluteness."
However, the ability to question something with logical reason and proof is proof of it's non absoluteness.
Puck

Con

(1)Existence exists - Objective reality.

Existence i.e. reality, requires no justification, as it is prior to and independent of consciousness. To exist is to be something - distinguished from nonexistence (nothing). It is to be an entity of a specific nature made of specific attributes. A is A. A cannot be non A.

Something exists which we perceive and we exist possessing consciousness - consciousness being the facility of perceiving what exists. Consciousness is a trait of biological entities which is an acquired awareness of an independently existing reality.

It follows then that if nothing exists there would be no consciousness - additionally a consciousness with nothing to be conscious of is contradictory in essence. Similarly, consciousness conscious of nothing but itself is again a contradiction. Prior to identifying itself as consciousness, it must be conscious of something.

Existence (set of all things) exists (trait of existence). As the trait exists this means:
Ontologically - essential to each valid concept is the reality of existence.
Epistemologically - existence is not artificial. That is, there is no situation in that what it identifies is not fact.

"Can you be sure that we truly exist, that we are not some non-existant beings that wish to exist? Can you be sure that, after all, we used to exist, but we do not exist any more? That this is all a simple by-product of a want to still exist? It's all completely possible."

So yes we can be sure by virtue of 1. Being conscious and 2. The law of non contradiction which entails A is A. A cannot be non A. Additionally it is impossible to argue non existence from the position of existence. Note this is not a proof of existence - it simply means (again Law of non contradiction) that you cannot exist and be able to argue successfully that you do not in fact exist. Likewise you cannot be in a state of non existence and perform any action (e.g. wish). A cannot be non A.

(2)Law of non contradiction

You wished to know how this is relevant to "There is Nothing in this World that we can be Completely sure of." Quite simply by identifying any entities properties we by default know with complete certainty a matching set of incompatible properties it cannot be.

"However, the ability to question something with logical reason and proof is proof of it's non absoluteness."

Deductive proof yes - use of logic only if it is correct. It is quite easy to use logic methods incorrectly. For example:

All elephants are mammals
A tiger is a mammal
-----------------------------------
All tigers are elephants.

It is logically structured but also unsound.
Debate Round No. 2
VenomousNinja

Pro

Well...

I guess you got me. Good job. It was fun. I know when to quit, and this is it. I have no arguments that could possibly prove you wrong.

Cool. I would like to debate you in the future sometime.
Puck

Con

I'm glad you had fun. :D

Feel free to challenge me anytime - message me first though as my schedule may not be the most compliant.
Debate Round No. 3
37 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 31 through 37 records.
Posted by Puck 4 years ago
Puck
"He also maintains that just because you may be unable to prove something, does not mean that it does not exist... which is fine. The resolution doesn't talk about 'existing' though or even questioning."

The end caveat refers to the all too often seen "because I can argue against X, X is not an absolute given". It refers to neither (1) or (2) specifically.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 4 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
"First of all, a huge pet peeve of mine is when people assume (and sometimes proclaim) that Pro has the "burden of proof" in a debate. In actuality, BOTH sides have equal burden of proof -- Pro must prove the resolution, and Con must disprove the resolution."

Con needn't disprove any resolution. Con CAN do so, however, if he can simply prevent Pro from proving it, such is sufficient that the resolution cannot be established.

I don't need to prove there is no magical fluffy unicorn on Puck's nose if I am Con and you are claiming there is one on it. I can benefit from doing so, but all I have to do is make it clear that Pro hasn't established it.
Posted by Danielle 4 years ago
Danielle
First of all, a huge pet peeve of mine is when people assume (and sometimes proclaim) that Pro has the "burden of proof" in a debate. In actuality, BOTH sides have equal burden of proof -- Pro must prove the resolution, and Con must disprove the resolution. While the difficulty of these burdens may vary, they both still have a burden... so...

Anyway I'm not sure what all the hype is about Con's argument. He has positioned himself to proving that existance exists, which is far easier said than done if argued by a competent opponent. He also maintains that just because you may be unable to prove something, does not mean that it does not exist... which is fine. The resolution doesn't talk about 'existing' though or even questioning. The resolution says you can't PROVE anything (or be completely sure of it).
Posted by brian_eggleston 4 years ago
brian_eggleston
This should be cool - I just hope I can keep up with it intellectually speaking - I've read some of Puck's stuff before and you need your thinking cap on at all times!
Posted by PoeJoe 4 years ago
PoeJoe
You're amazing Puck.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 4 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
And on the note of that Law of Non-contradiction... Since the burden of proof is on VenomousNinja, he has essentially given himself the task of proving, to the extent of complete surety, that complete surety is impossible. :D
Posted by Rezzealaux 4 years ago
Rezzealaux
Wow Puck.

You just made my day.

If there are any more fundamentals you have, can you message me with em? :D
8 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Vote Placed by theitalianstallion 4 years ago
theitalianstallion
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Vote Placed by VenomousNinja 4 years ago
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Vote Placed by Rezzealaux 4 years ago
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