The Instigator
platoandaristotle
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
FollowerofChrist1955
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

There is a God as described by the Christian Bible.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/1/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 516 times Debate No: 103356
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (22)
Votes (0)

 

platoandaristotle

Con

The Bible is a very important historical book. However, it is not without its failures - people like myself find issues with its statements, particularly those regarding the supposed King of Everything, Yahweh(the Lord).
In support of my opponent I will not make many arguments here.
1. The Evidential Issue
If my opponent wishes to raise the issue of faith, the problem would be that in the case in which there is no evidence, agnosticism becomes the most reasonable position. God, as described in the Bible, has done many significant things (such as a global flood and appearing as a person) and those should have left empirical evidence.
Furthermore, if disbelief were a sin worthy of hell, God would have eliminated it, again leaving evidence.
Without any external and prior confirmation, there is reason to doubt the validity of the Bible.
2. Evil
God is equated with love in the New Testament. There are also allusions in the Old Testament to God "knowing all things" and being very powerful.
However, if this is the case, a contradiction appears. Plenty of natural evil occurs - including that which takes away belongings and kills people - things that are repeatedly denounced in the Bible. If natural evil exists, then God is violating his own beliefs
3. Contradictions.
In Judges 1, God is said to be unable to drive out inhabitants of a valley. This is impossible if, as the Bible often states, God can do all things.
In the New Testament, God is equated with love; however, in the Old Testament, the quote "I make peace and create evil" is attributed to God - not something that the embodiment of love would do.
Finally, two of the Gospels have contradictory geneaologies of Jesus.
I await your response happily. Thanks for honest debate.
FollowerofChrist1955

Pro

The Bible is a very important historical book. However, it is not without its failures - people like myself find issues with its statements, particularly those regarding the supposed King of Everything, Yahweh(the Lord).

1. The Evidential Issue
Evidence is a thing LOOKED for. The unbelieving do not look. That is their fault not the fault of God. The internet has placed within the reach of all, the knowledge of the ages ... yet STILL you fail to look. Is that to Gods fault. Because YOU have no faith?

If you REALLY wanted to know? You need only type in . Seashells found on mountaintops? Go to images and view them. Or Whale bones found in the desert? Trees buried while standing upright? And view them.

Tell me Child when have you ever heard of trees being buried while still standing? It doesn't happen. They fall over before their buried. Not in the Flood they didn't. Your problem is one of SELF. you serve the God of SELF. If it don't make sense to YOU you deny it. That's absolutely WRONG.

YOU PROVE BY evidence not by OPINION. You've provided ZERO EVIDENCE, to support ANY of your claims.

"Without any external and prior confirmation, there is reason to doubt the validity of the Bible."

You never bothered too LOOK ... that makes THIS statement a lie of omission.

So evidence of global flood? There for anyone to see, on google search, you should try it sometime .. then go to images in the title and view the photos. Whales bones in the desert ..... uhhh a little hard to figure. They live in seas, not streams. Proof of global flood ... BUT, do you have FAITH? or Will you turn a blind eye?
Not lack of evidence? Lack of open Mindedness!

2. Evil
A dog when startled will bite you ... you blame God? Understand kill ... Gods fault. Children are raped ... clearly Gods fault eh?

People like you exist? People who CHOOSE to DO EVIL. Evil EXIST IN THIS WORLD. Why? Because FREE WILL, exist in this World, as YOU HAVE SHOWN US. The Bible is there to teach you, to help you to know the right and the wrong. To SAVE YOU from Hell, should you choose to decide to go that route .... or walk away and continue LIVING for yourself ... your FLESHLY DESIRES!

YOU HAVE THE CHOICE. Just ...... Like ...... the ..... Devil did. He chose too! Now he will pay the error of his ways, in the Lake of Fire. You? You too are given the right of choice. Tu n you Life over to God ... God leads you and seals you to Heaven.
Go the way of SELF ... like your doing right know? And you will serve the flesh. And that comes at a PRICE. Specifically BECAUSE you chose to go AGAINST your creator. That's not, nor does it make your Creator Evil, because you chose to do evil. Nor will it make Him (God) Evil .... when you are HELD ACCOUNTABLE, and sentenced to the place created for the Devil and his Angels either.

Like the Angels, our Souls are immortal. They must exist somewhere. Only two places! Heaven or Lake of Fire not yet created, in the mean time Hell holds, the ones who choose evil.

Plenty of natural evil occurs - including that which takes away belongings and kills people - things that are repeatedly denounced in the Bible. If natural evil exists, then God is violating his own beliefs

So now GOD is held accountable for accidents too eh? Poor choices? Overuse the plug, house burn down, kids entire family's die ... Gods fault. Couldn't be someone plugged too many into one socket ... POOR CHOICE.

Car runs into Street , hit by car ... couldn't be the fault of the driver ... God must have done it eh?

Now you see the problem, not God? YOU! You don't know God, that's what's wrong .. it isn't you, it's who you do not know, that has you confused. Can't change that by reading a book. Got to STUDY, the book, got to ASK GOD, to HELP YOU understand the book. THEN , then with Gods help, everything becomes clear. You think I, would serve a God like the one YOU DESCRIBE? Of course not. But God isn't anything like YOU describe.

3. Contradictions.
THEY DON'T EXIST! What you call contradictions, I call lack of guidance Lack of understanding, lack of Immaturity with regard to scriptures. First you have to understand that about 10% of the Bible was written for YOU, and unbeliever. The REST was written for Me, and those like me ... BELIEVERS in Christ.

You can read it cover to cover you'll never understand it. Why ... you don't have Gods Spirit which SEALS you to Heaven, and teaches you the Bible.

True story ... there are 33,820+ Christian denominations in the World today. Start learning to use the internet for learning instead of God bashing!
How many correct Christian beliefs are there? 1
How MANY of those remaining 33,820 false beliefs are gonna open their eyes IN HEAVEN, upon death ........ ALL OF THEM?

Humans cannot understand this. You can't understand this. Here's the thing though ... that DON'T make it FALSE!

The reason, all of them get to Heaven is because eternal Life in Heaven .... WAS FREE!

Romans 6:23
23"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a]Christ Jesus our Lord.

Free gift, means you cannot earn it, you cannot earn it, you cannot lose it! The fact that all those people are following after their own thinking ... like your doing right now. Doesn't effect their SALVATION in Christ.

See there are 3 types of Christians that will appear before the Bema seat of Christ?
Bema seat is the Judgement seat of Christ . There we are judged on actions which have EARNED US Rewards, while alive, not punishments. We are forgiven by accepting Christ sacrifice in remission of our sins. We now Live through and For Him. When we appear before God, Christ's own righteousness is imparted too us, because He (Christ PAID our Sin debt in FULL on a cross 20000 years ago!)

The 3 Christians
The Saved without reward
The Saved with Reward
The Saved with reward and inheritance

The Saved without reward, are those 33,820
The Saved with reward are Some of the 33,820
The LAST are Disciples ONLY.
Those who overcome themselves, and take up their cross and carry it.

If you were saved today ... you would be in the first group. If you walked obediently to Christ , but remained carnal ... fleshly, leaning on your own understanding, you would be in the second group. Of you prayed to God to help you die to yourself, each day ... study Gods word believing only what GOD HIMSELF teaches you ... you would become a Disciple and be in the last group.

It says that here:
Luke 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Luke 14:27
And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple.

Other evidence, never researched:
http://www.reasons.org...

https://www.blueletterbible.org...

The Revelation 12 Sign is an apocalyptic belief promoted by a number of Christian ministries and news organizations, which states that a literal fulfillment of the prophecy given in Revelation 12:1-2 will occur on September 23, 2017.

https://youtu.be...

Yes, this one will be fulfilled IN YOUR SIGHT.
Debate Round No. 1
platoandaristotle

Con

Thanks for responding.
Quite unusually, FoC1955 has put his rebuttal first so let's look at that.
1. The Evidential Issue
You have listed a series of supposed effects of Noah's Flood as empirical evidence for God. Let's take a look at these, shall we?
Plate tectonics explains your first two ideas - these deserts and mountains were once underwater, several hundred million years ago. This does not mean the Noah's Flood happened - it is evidence for plate tectonics, a much simpler hypothesis than the global flood (which I suggest you look up)
That something was once underwater does not imply that God put it underwater, nor does it prove the entire world was once underwater.
2. Evil
Your defense here involves false believers choosing to do evil. The evil that I mentioned, however, is natural evil. God created the nature which causes disease and bad weather, and is thus going against his principles by creating a world which deprives people of(steals) their property and causing deaths(killing).
In addition, the God described in the Bible would likely intervene to prevent adverse effects of human actions as well as those of lesser deities, such as Satan.
And sure, maybe I should read more of the Bible.
3. Contradictions
You didn't respond to contradictions I mentioned. Rather, you said an elongated version of "Christians understand." I haven't heard this Christian understanding, but perhaps I will never get it.
4. Your argument: Fulfilled Prophecy
The claims in Revelation 12:1-2 are quite vague. There are several stellar patterns that would match it, including ones that have appeared in the past; also there are several different Heavens referred to in the Bible. Now reading the claims of Rev 12:1-2, I am further convinced that the symbol which supposedly will appear in September is not matching the verse - what about "laboring" or "crying in pain?"4
Ultimately stellar effects are interpereted by humans.
You brang up a couple of lists of prophecies - I won't bother to refute everything in them, but I will say that most prophecies either
-are vague, or
-were not fullfilled;
For example the prophecy in Isaiah that the Messiah would bring the Jews to Israel and be referred to as Immanuel or God-with-us.
FollowerofChrist1955

Pro

Alas;
Quite usually, you respond with ZERO evidence. Opinions are your sole defense. Trees do not grow underwater nor in oceans. So tectonic plates is exactly why you never get it. We call it the na-uhh factor. This is why no one debates with atheist. They refuse to prove anything. I gave you evidence, you give opinions nothing much .... a complete waste of time.
Debate Round No. 2
platoandaristotle

Con

FoC1955 has wasted a rebuttal saying that I have only provided opinions, so I suppose I will use the coveted final statement to clarify my previous one.
1. Evidential Issue
Plate tectonics - look it up. It can result in things moving underwater or going out of water (volcanoes/mountain ranges grow to form islands)
The fossilization process can end up with underwater fossils - through streams.
2. Evil
I provided reasons which refute your counterargument. You say that human false believers are responsible for evil. However, disease and natural disaster are effects of natural order, so you cannot use human action as an excuse for them.
3. Contradictions
It is evidenced by your response that you did not respond to my proposed contradictions.
4. Prophecy
What constitutes "vague?" Well, it means the prophecy would probably be fulfilled anyway - with or without a Biblical God existing.
I provided two unfullfilled prophecies as a counterargument as well.

FollowerofChrist1955

Pro

There's a song goes....
Wasted days and wasted nights ......

Hat a shame, had you just taken this seriously .... but nope ...
Debate Round No. 3
22 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by whiteflame 5 months ago
whiteflame
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>Reported vote: Manastacious// Mod action: Removed<

7 point to Con. Reasons for voting decision: Pretty clear win for the con. The pro seems to have devolved their position into proclaiming dogma rather than reasoned argument.

[*Reason for removal*] (1) The voter doesn"t explain conduct, S&G, or sources. (2) Arguments are insufficiently explained. The voter is required to specifically assess arguments made by both sides. While this assessment partially addresses Pro"s argument, it does not address Con"s.
************************************************************************
Posted by backwardseden 5 months ago
backwardseden
@platoandaristotle Yeah see that's the problem in getting into a debate with someone who could or could not be a good debater. I naturally hope for an intelligent and educated debate. Unfortunately nearly every single time I am bombarded with fluffy white carded bumbling teeny bopper misfits who have to invent excuses and or flat out lie from something in which they clearly know nothing about rather than saying those terrorizing words to chrisitanity of "I don't know". That's the problem with this site. I wish we as the creators of the debates had the ability to bump the person off of the debates. Especially if he or she just climbs on to freeze them or if he or she quits after the first or second rounds. Another thing that is ridiculous is there needs to be more than 10,000 characters for an argument. I mean its not enough many times. But hey, that's me.
Posted by platoandaristotle 5 months ago
platoandaristotle
backwardseden: Yeah, you'll rarely see a less civil debate.
I'm getting into another debate on the same subject with Ockham. Not sure about him/her.
Posted by backwardseden 5 months ago
backwardseden
@platoandaristotle Oh I'd have to say that nearly everybody is a better debater. There's a few that are simply the absolute worst though. primearcitect is one and another is SuperAwesomeMusician. Those guys just like followerofneanderthalchrist clearly have no genuine friends or loved ones. And that in itself speaks volumes that can be plucked from the air of trees that are thousands of years old trees. Yeah I'd love to debate Moelogy but the problem with him is that his parameters are so mindnumbingly backwards, and let's be honest here, he 100% knows it, especially with his BOP ideals, that it is impossible.
Posted by platoandaristotle 5 months ago
platoandaristotle
FoC1955: Well, bye. Forfeiting won't look good on your debate record though.
Posted by platoandaristotle 5 months ago
platoandaristotle
backwardseden: There are certainly better debaters. I do not intend to debate him again. Maybe kenballer or Moelogy next time.
The discussion has essentially been:
"Here are three reasons that atheism is reasonable."
"Please, convert to Christianity. Why? Because volcanoes, and also because just convert."
"Here's why that makes no sense"
"Just an opinion."
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 5 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
platoandaristotle;
Congratulations nimrod, you just killed the debate by NOT giving evidence. JUST OPINION.
If I'm gonna waste my time. It will be doing what I want. Bye,
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 5 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
backwardseden;
Hahaha where did you get that date from? The Millennial reign is 1000 years by itself. If the World ended the 29 th how would that be possible?

Please .... just go back to sleep. Poor thing.
Posted by backwardseden 5 months ago
backwardseden
@platoandaristotle You couldn't have come up with a worse debater in all of history. No truly. I mean he tried to debate with me and he honestly believes that the world is going to end of Sept. 29th or some stupid date like that and he honestly believes that he is able to prove it through his divine wise-dumb. And the thing, as I am sure you have noticed through your escapism rigor - mortis between him, well what language does he absolutely follow other than his and his only? It is so blatantly and obviously clear that this utter failure of humanity has 0 friends or loved ones. Shocking isn't it?
Posted by missmedic 5 months ago
missmedic
The Christian god has to many descriptive failings, contradictions and limiting attributes to be a God.
No votes have been placed for this debate.