The Instigator
RedWhiteBlueBlooded
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
AWSM0055
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

There is a god

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/5/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 765 times Debate No: 80537
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (27)
Votes (0)

 

RedWhiteBlueBlooded

Pro

The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today. Nature is actually full of quantifiable miracles. Just consider the fact that the earth is the perfect distance from the sun to support life. If we were any farther away from the sun, we would freeze; if we were even slightly closer to it, we would burn up. It"s obvious God created this home for us! Healing miracles! Also there's miracle healing, thousands of people all over the world are miraculously healed from incurable conditions, after being touched by the power of God.
AWSM0055

Con

The distance from the sun to our planet, therefore making it sustainable, was created by pure chance. As unlikely as its seems, it makes sense since there are billions of stars in our galaxy alone, let alone planets and other matter in the whole universe. The chance of at least on planet in this universe being sustainable for life is actually quite probable.

http://www.nasa.gov...

http://www.space.com...

http://www.hawking.org.uk...

Secondly, healing the sick by God is only supported by anecdotal evidence or from "Holy Books" such as the bible or Karan, which are thousands of years old. Even modern day healing is due to scientists hard work making medicine for once incurable diseases!

http://www.who.int...

http://www.mnn.com...

Also, if God does truly heal the sick all over the world, why does he let others simply die, such as starving children in Africa? Or why does he allow violence and rape to progress without even a slight degree of resistance? This is cherry picking facts and special pleading.

http://www.poverty.com...

Finally, you give no sources as to these miraculous "healings". Please give valid, up to date citations please.
Debate Round No. 1
RedWhiteBlueBlooded

Pro

First, read the bible it answers a lot of stuff. Ok lets go...the cosmological argument is an argument for the existence of God that says that God is the First Cause that created the universe. It"s also known as the argument from first cause, the causal argument, or the argument from existence.
The argument below is a variant of the cosmological argument, and it states:
Premise 1 " Something exists
Premise 2 " Nothing cannot create something
Conclusion " Something must have always existed
There are only two options if we"re following the logic given in the cosmological argument.

-Either the universe has always existed or
-Something outside the universe has always existed
_________________________________________________________________________

-Also discoveries in astronomy have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that the universe did, in fact, have a beginning. There was a single moment of creation.

-Advances in molecular biology have revealed vast amounts of information encoded in each and every living cell, and molecular biologists have discovered thousands upon thousands of exquisitely designed machines at the molecular level. Information requires intelligence and design requires a designer.

-Biochemists and mathematicians have calculated the odds against life arising from non-life naturally via unintelligent processes. The odds are astronomical. In fact, scientists aren't even sure if life could have evolved naturally via unintelligent processes. If life did not arise by chance, how did it arise?

-People of every race, creed, color, and culture, both men and women, young and old, wise and foolish, from the educated to the ignorant, claim to have personally experienced something of the supernatural. So what are we supposed to do with these prodigious accounts of divine healing, prophetic revelation, answered prayer, and other miraculous phenomena? Ignorance and imagination may have played a part to be sure, but is there something more?
AWSM0055

Con

Again, CITATIONS NEEDED!

But anyway, let me breakdown your comments...

Quote - "Premise 1 " Something exists
Premise 2 " Nothing cannot create something
Conclusion " Something must have always existed
There are only two options if we"re following the logic given in the cosmological argument.

-Either the universe has always existed or
-Something outside the universe has always existed"

You are clearly not understanding that the universe is much more complicated then that. Even though I'm no expert on quantum physics, I can assure you that things don't always create other things.

Even though scientists don't absolutely "know" how the universe was created, labelling it as divine is the last thing we want to do.

Did you know, that islander tribes on some pacific islands witnessed WW2 planes fly on their islands and make bases out of them. After the planes left, they made stories about these "Gods" and even worshiped idols in the form of airplanes! It's called "Cargo Cult" - Check it out: https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

My point is that simply because something is strange or unexplained, doesn't mean that "God did it"

Anyway, there are some popular theories related to the creation of matter at the beginning of everything.

http://www.pbs.org...

https://www.cfa.harvard.edu...

https://www.cfa.harvard.edu...

Now for your point about evolution:
"Advances in molecular biology have revealed vast amounts of information encoded in each and every living cell, and molecular biologists have discovered thousands upon thousands of exquisitely designed machines at the molecular level. Information requires intelligence and design requires a designer.

-Biochemists and mathematicians have calculated the odds against life arising from non-life naturally via unintelligent processes. The odds are astronomical. In fact, scientists aren't even sure if life could have evolved naturally via unintelligent processes. If life did not arise by chance, how did it arise?"

Sorry to bust your bubble, but Abiogenesis (beginning of evolution) didn't actually happen by random process - not fully anyway.

In fact, "Abiogenesis was a long process with many small incremental steps, all governed by the non-random forces of Natural Selection and chemistry. The very first stages of abiogenesis were no more than simple self-replicating molecules, which might hardly have been called alive at all."

Furthermore, "...the simplest theorized self-replicating peptide is only 32 amino acids long. The probability of it forming randomly, in sequential trials, is approximately 1 in [10^40], which is much more likely than the 1 in [10^390] claim creationists often cite."

(The probability of life, written by Richard Peacock, accessed at http://evolutionfaq.com...).

If life came by COMPLETE chance, then yeah, your right. But the fact is it didn't (as stated above).

Finally - "People of every race, creed, color, and culture, both men and women, young and old, wise and foolish, from the educated to the ignorant, claim to have personally experienced something of the supernatural. So what are we supposed to do with these prodigious accounts of divine healing, prophetic revelation, answered prayer, and other miraculous phenomena? Ignorance and imagination may have played a part to be sure, but is there something more?"

That is a HUGE overstatement, gross generalisation, and is show a LOT of fallacies such as:

1. Anecdotal fallacy (you give no source of this information)
2. An appeal to probability fallacy (you assume that your word is fact due to it being probable...to you anyway)
3. False Authority (your using only your unbelievable opinions)
4. Incomplete Comparison (you don't give any information to compare)
And probably a lot more.
Debate Round No. 2
RedWhiteBlueBlooded

Pro

Ok i get it....
Anyway the universe is neither old enough nor large enough for life to have spontaneously begun on its own, also the very age of the universe requires that an outside force must have at least initiated the process of life in the universe, and the law of cause and effect dictates that the nothing can exist within our universe without the influence of an outside force. To believe that such an outside force is not intelligent or conscious, to me, would require a staggering amount of faith!

There are no effects extant without causation.. therefore there must needs to have been one uncaused cause... this does not disprove evolution, but it does show that evolution is caused...even the quantum physics community now reports that "the known universe now appears less like an accident and more like a thought". Through the ages so large, varied and even isolated segments of population Earth, both religionist and non, educated and aborigne, sense this thought/cause and independantly evolve a God concept is evolutionary socio/physical proof that God exists within their physical experiences.

Lastly i personally think there is no evidence that god doesnt exist, what you have is all lies you all think are truths...
AWSM0055

Con

There are so many fallacies in your argument, I can't even be bothered listing them.

You straight up say that I'm wrong without providing any information, sources, references or even quotes with names. The information you give is therefore irrational and simply exists for argument.

The universe is over 14 billion years old, with over 10^24 billion planets, and over 200 billion galaxies in the KNOWN universe. Saying that the universe is not old enough is a useless argument anyway, since the shear amount of opportunities for life to arise in the universe on the amount of planets available is very probable.

http://scienceblogs.com...

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov...

Also, laws are created by humans, whom have a currently limited knowledge and understanding or how physics work. Laws are given to simplify a pattern among the universe. If a law is wrong, it must be changed.

Besides, your argument is irrelevant since I gave you sources as to some theories of how the Big Bang happened. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the Big Bang happened and how it might of happened.

Finally, saying there is no evidence that something doesn't exist is a fallacy. The burden of proof is on you. If you make a claim that God exists, then YOU have to provide proper scientific evidence to back that up, which you haven't. So far, you have provided no sources, nor quoted any scientists. The only evidence your providing is either anecdotal of a factual errors.
Debate Round No. 3
27 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by drip1 1 year ago
drip1
Don't waste anymore of your time AWSM0055, you did all that you could and more.

More than I would have anyways, the best you can do is keep your sanity.

Cheers.
Posted by AWSM0055 1 year ago
AWSM0055
*sigh*...

*Violently smacks head against brick wall*
Posted by RedWhiteBlueBlooded 1 year ago
RedWhiteBlueBlooded
God isn't in another dimension he's omnipresent
Posted by AWSM0055 1 year ago
AWSM0055
You literally said that God could of made all the scientific evidence against him to trick mankind! That IS sadistic! If He wanted to save mankind, he shouldn't trick us into believing something that could lead to infinite death! He did the same in Eden for crying out loud! Which is irrelevant anyway since you again say that he is going to kill off all the "bad" people! Life is not black or white! I don't believe in God because I'm evil or "bad". I don't believe in God because there is no evidence! That's the same reason I don't believe in Zeus, Allah, Vishnu, Buddha, Baal, or Barrack Obama (as a divine being anyway)!

And what's going to happen to the poor starving African babies that didn't even know that JWs EXISTED! Huh? What happens to them? Do they die too at Armageddon?

Again, you say that you don't need any scientific evidence to prove God exists anyway, so this WHOLE debate has been a HUGE waste of my time. You made this a debate, so what do you expect me to say in regards to my position (con)? I spent time and effort on those arguments and then you say "Oh, well I see you making valid points, but that doesn't matter since you can't prove God doesn't exist scientifically since he's in another dimension!"

I could claim that I own a Lamborghini Veneno! How likely is that without any evidence? You on the other hand claim there is an alternate superior being in another dimension that created mankind "In the beginning" and will destroy all the "Baddies" if they don't believe in him, and then proceed to give no evidence! That is a extraordinary statement that needs evidence besides 2000 year old fairy tales!

I mean, what was the debate for then? If your right, then you've won the argument. If your wrong, it doesn't matter since God is in another dimension and therefore can't be tested to be true or false! I mean, what the heck!?

This whole discussion has been one giant fallacy, armed with loaded questions and factual errors. I'm done. Consider this
Posted by RedWhiteBlueBlooded 1 year ago
RedWhiteBlueBlooded
first of all god is not sadistic or stupid, when Armageddon happens he's going to kill off all the "bad" people. and God is not a physical object. He's more of an abstract reality. Science cannot study divinity because it exists out side the boundaries of space/time. Therefore you cannot provide scientific proof.
Posted by AWSM0055 1 year ago
AWSM0055
And if you parents see this, I am not attempting to "bully" you. I am simply stating facts that I have gathered myself, and the obvious flaws in you belief that blind you to evidence that states otherwise.
Posted by AWSM0055 1 year ago
AWSM0055
Do I have to repeat to you that I have personally researched and found sufficient evidence of JWs being corrupt and underhanded? That is not a preconceived opinion based on nothing. I also have personally had "brothers" slander my name and accused me of things I didn't do.

There are also plenty of websites that explain the repeated changes and mistakes that Watchtower society has made. But of course, you wouldn't view them because YOU have a preconceived notion about so-called "Apostates".

For instance, the New World Translation that is ONLY used by JWs (suspicious enough for you?) and has many mistakes, changed or removed verses and passages, and some are changed solely on the basis of supporting their own doctrines.

I can't be bothered citing sources because I know you'll just slam them as being wrong.

Also, I like how everything that doesn't support you own ideology is a straight up LIE, yet anything that supports you claims - even irrational ones - are totally fine by you.

And if God purposefully made scientific evidence against himself so that the majority of the Earth is mislead and eventually dies at "Armageddon", then your God is either sadistic or stupid. Proverbs 14:15 states that the naive person believes everything, and the shrewd one considered each step, and yet the rest of the bible depends solely on blind belief.

I'm sorry, but you just stomped on all the empathy I had left for you.
Posted by RedWhiteBlueBlooded 1 year ago
RedWhiteBlueBlooded
have you ever thought that god might off planted all that "evidence" against himself so it would take more than "physical proof" to prove his existence , and quite a lot of hope and faith too?
Posted by RedWhiteBlueBlooded 1 year ago
RedWhiteBlueBlooded
Define prejudice:
-"preconceived opinion that is not based on reason"

No offense but your blind to the truth, if you want to believe all those lies...go ahead
Posted by AWSM0055 1 year ago
AWSM0055
When have I been prejudiced against JWs? I was one for a while until I did some research a found the facts for myself.

Yes, age is just a number, and a hill is just a small mountain. But the broader you see things, the more clarity you have in life.
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