The Instigator
Nordenkalt444
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Duncan
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

There is an afterlife

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/22/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,301 times Debate No: 34048
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (7)
Votes (0)

 

Nordenkalt444

Pro

I would like to challenge someone on a religious debate, because I've had a near-death experience with my cousin as we drove I remember everything and there's also many things that can prove God's existence and the afterlife.

Without imposing my beliefs, I'd like to share my experience and knowledge in this debate.
Duncan

Con

I would first like to thank the pro side for giving me an opportunity to discuss this topic, and I am looking forward to a long series of debates on this website.

Now, normally, as the con side, burden of proof would fall on the opposite side, however, the pro side is basing their argument on personal experience, calling for a different line of thought.

My first section is to attack the idea of an afterlife. The concept of an eternity seems unreasonable to me, as I am sure I do not need to search the web for sources proving that emotions stem from chemical reactions in the brain. When the person dies, the body's vital organs fail and the body then decomposes as it is broken down bacteria. This is where the afterlife problem is caused. Is your afterlife based on the Christian afterlife, in which despite a lack of brain or body, you maintain awareness? This is as believable as having your brain and spine removed, (fallout joke) and having them replaced with a magic brain and spine that somehow perform in an identical manner. This line of thought leads to the question of whether a deity exists to govern your afterlife, but that is another debate (please mention if you would like to include this) for another time. I do not see much further discussion about the spirit occurring until I read your stance on it, so I will move onto my second line of thought.

Your belief in an afterlife is based on your personal "near death experience", and though not much detail is explained by your opening, I would guess you heard voices or felt a presence of some sort. This can be explained through the psychological effect of placebo. I understand placebo is a medical term improperly used here, but the argument stands that the brain can influence the body in irrational matters. If you've ever seen ghost hunters or any group that claim to know of some supernatural force, then you'll see that they are willing to interpret anything as evidence of their belief. Your personal experience could easily have been a dream or delusion caused by concussion, or whatever circumstance you were in. (again, I will need further explanation of your experience to understand it fully). Not wanting to stray far from topic, I list examples such as ghost or alien believers as people who claim to have has an experience of something, then using that experience as proof f the belief, ignoring the evidence supporting or degrading that belief for the main reason that the experience was so powerful and memorable. I can understand why you would believe in an afterlife for this reason, but without other forms of reasoning, this argument cannot stand up.

I would also like to bring up the idea of wanting an afterlife to exist. Many want the existence of an afterlife out of fear of death. Since Death is

A: The end of sensation ie; feeling and

B: The end of the conscience,

Then Death is a painless occurrence, and not to be feared. Besides, the idea of an afterlife would seem appealing to those who fear the void, but just think of how long eternity is. You will have done everything within the first million years, and the rest might as well be hell, just sitting around with nothing to do. Being an immortal sucks. But I digress. This section is only opinion on why you need not fear the lack of afterlife, and rather seek to make the most of this life, still following a moral code as I and many others do, and following the concept Banksy had when he said:

"I mean, they say you die twice. One time when you stop breathing and a second time, a bit later on, when somebody says your name for the last time."

No, my friend, there is no afterlife. But do not fear; rather than abandon morality out the concept that there are no consequences in the "next world", use your one life to truly progress as a person, and live on in your actions and the memories you have left with others. (You may accept being remembered as a valid afterlife)

Awaiting your response, Duncan
Debate Round No. 1
Nordenkalt444

Pro

I'd like to thank my opponent for making logical statements and arguments, this is the segment where I provide a little bit more information and sources.

To make it short, a lot of people's experiences are strikingly similar. I basically wanted to provide more facts than my personal experience and belief, my experience is only one piece of evidence that favors my side of the argument so I'd like to share many others. I've tried nearly all the drugs, including DMT which is what people think is released when you die, but this experience was nothing similar to that.
Many people are very wary of the Bible, Torah, Koran, or many other religious books and figures. But I'd like to share a few verses from the Bible (my religious book, but mind you I'm not imposing it) to show you what it says about how the world would be, right before Jesus' second coming.

http://www.sacred-texts.com...

After reading all that you might be saying "there's always been wars, earthquakes, and false Christs". Historically speaking, you're right but the question is what would cause all these things to happen at an alarming rate. If you look at the news today, you can see all of these things and many different Bible, Torah, and Koran verses reflect everything that's happened, is happening, and probably will happen.
As for your scientific answer toward why we have "afterlife-like experiences", I cant say I have a response because there is no one thing that directly says "God is real" or "there is an afterlife". But I have some scientific questions, who/what directly made all the elements of the periodic table? Who/what caused the big bang? (assuming it happened, I'm sure it has). Who/what took the molecules into position to make the planets of the universe? If you have an answer that has nothing to do with a creator, I would be glad to hear your opinions.

Given the high sensitivity of this topic, I'd also be glad to answer any questions/comments you might have.
Duncan

Con

Norden, it is true that the religious texts do contain sections that reflect current, past and future events, and different religions contain this, however, propheteering is an easy business, precisely why false christs are mentioned in the bible you have quoted. The trick is to give vague and predictable occurrences, which can then be interpreted by follwers as truth when a similar enough event occurs. You can quote me now as Prophet Duncan; In the coming days, great losses will be shared, the blood of just and unjust will mix on the streets and the people shall know the truth. There. That is vague enough that any violent news story matches my predictions perfectly. Many have made a living off of this job, and it is easy to predict that more false prophets will arrive, as the laws of imperfect competition state that any firm earning supernormal prophets- profits, sorry, will soon have competitors arriving into its market. These predictions do not provide any evidence of God, or an afterlife.

As for the creation of the universe, I can't tell you that. No one can, at least not yet. We cannot yet travel back to a time before time, and we cannot know who or what created the elements, not yet anyway. But the role of a scientist is to find out how and why. That is why they work each day to uncover the truth. Because science is about discovery. If science could explain everything, then scientists would be out of a job. As mysteries are solved, new ones arise out of its solution. But you, as many do, fear the doubt of death, of not knowing what is to come. And thus, you create a demand for answers, as soon as they can be delivered. It is only a matter of time before some bright spark realizes that if he tells you to sacrifice a cow once a week to go to paradise, that he gets steak for dinner. This is how and why Christ (who I do believe existed, just not as a miracle worker) was able to predict the coming of other false prophets.

And while I cannot explain to you the origin of the universe, I do not think it just for a religious order to declare that God did it (and they used to burn those who questioned them) and then attempt establish control over people, dictating their lives and actions, and still collecting tithes to this day from certain states (Germany). I apologize if I am overenthusiastic or emotional regarding discussions of the Catholic Church, but returning to topic, there is still no reasoning or proof other than vague predictions (send your donations in to the church of Prophet Duncan and you shall receive salvation) to support the concept of an afterlife.

Awaiting your response, Duncan.
Debate Round No. 2
Nordenkalt444

Pro

I would gladly tell you that I don't fear death and I didn't simply "go about looking for answers". I grew up in a Christian family, I was always skeptical until this car accident happened to me. Some people even say that they look forward to death to relive the glory they experienced when it happened to them, in fact the Born Again Christians have a very unique view on life and death. They don't even see death as a trial here on Earth, claiming that death is a "birth into His Kingdom".

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Thank you for your honesty, some atheists say "of course science isn't always accurate" then go to them for every answer. I see that you're different, but most Christians like me see God as the "chief scientist" of the universe. During my experience, the angel I was with described to me that Heaven is an (and I'll never forget the term he gave) "anarchic-feudal state" which means that everything you do on Earth would manifest there. I was too young to understand what this meant but he said that I would know the reason for him telling me. Now I know, the next year I was given an interest and talent in geography, history, and government. This is why I still think this was not some hallucinogen, or that the Bible is a book solely based on false stories. I think that without everything that is true, Christianity would merely be a personality cult directed towards Jesus and his "Father".

Because I never want to impose any of this on others (especially people that have already made up their mind), I want to share my beliefs on science. Most of the religious deny science of any type, but I don't. The reason intellectuals were executed by the Church was because the Catholics knew that people would see the truth, the real truth. After that, the Church was divided to a more reasonable approach. Then the followers of Martin Luther said "Never again shall the Church impose salvation via wealth!".

http://en.wikipedia.org...

The big bang and evolution probably happened, let's face it, but it can't just happen by itself. Especially with the constant testimony of people that see God's signs (sometimes even God Himself), and these people never even use drugs or hallucinate.
Duncan

Con

Duncan forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Nordenkalt444

Pro

Nordenkalt444 forfeited this round.
Duncan

Con

I thank you for your courtesy Norden, and I will attempt to keep on time with my responses from now on.
It seems that neither of us were on topic in the previous round. But here we go;

Once again the topic has brought us back to the god debate. You argue that the big bang had to be cause by something, which is true, but if you claim that God made it, then who made God? This is a problem neither side can deal with yet, because if you say God made himself, then big bang believers can say that the vacuum was always there. But I digress, this is an unrelated and inconclusive discussion. My first point, regarding the biological impossibility of an afterlife due to the end of the brain and therefore, conscience, disproves the idea of an afterlife.

Awaiting your response, Duncan
Debate Round No. 4
Nordenkalt444

Pro

Nordenkalt444 forfeited this round.
Duncan

Con

Duncan forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by Nordenkalt444 4 years ago
Nordenkalt444
I'm very sorry, I've been busy lately especially today because my grandfathers on both sides of the family served in the military. I don't have a whole lot else to conclude, I just leave it up to the voters.
Posted by Duncan 4 years ago
Duncan
Uh... I'm gonna assume that Norden's busy and keep checking the comments for a while before replying.
Posted by Nordenkalt444 4 years ago
Nordenkalt444
No I haven't won yet, I don't win until the voters say I have lol. When you forfeit a round it just means that you give up one turn (we still have 2 left). But I dont have much to say until you make an argument haha but your comment doesn't seem to do that.
Posted by Duncan 4 years ago
Duncan
Dammit, sorry Nordenkalt444, I had a friend over, playing Saints Row the Third together, only to discover I was an hour late with my rebuttal. I don't know what happens on this site if you're an hour late, apparently you resign by default, but I'll just post it here.

After reading your next argument as to why the afterlife must exist, it rather more feels like an argument over the existence of God than the afterlife. I would be fine arguing regarding the existence of God, but that is a related but still different topic to the debate at hand. Whether or not a person has used hallucogenics is not the only influencing factor over such an occurrence. I recall one of these visions of God here in Ireland a year or two ago, which involved a dozen or so people claiming they saw a vision of Mary. ( this turned out to be the sun) but this case relates back to my previous mention of people seeing what they want to see. Even those who are not religious have had this effect (I recommend watching Derren Brown, the hypnotist, who somehow converted a room of atheists to christianity by touching one on the forehead) as people are susceptible to both placebo, and group activities. There have been cases of mass faintings, and other group reactions, which arises out of the expectation a person feels that they too should experience a certain event. You could compare this to alien sightings, another witness filled but evidence lacking belief, but my ultimate point would be that still no proof has been provided regarding the afterlife.

Considering that I'm an hour late with my response, I suppose technically, you've won, but my conclusion only brings the idea that believers and atheists must simply agree to disagree upon the matter, one side giving the afterlife the benefit of doubt, the other side insisting burden of proof.
(but again, this is my first debate, I didn't realize the rules of time limits, so you've still won anyway)

Duncan
Posted by Little-voice 4 years ago
Little-voice
I guess the point of it is that we not meant to know about such existence like many other subjects.
Posted by MrJosh 4 years ago
MrJosh
While I agree that the existence of an afterlife is not impossible, I have found no reason what-so-ever to believe that it is possible.
Posted by Little-voice 4 years ago
Little-voice
I personally believe in the possibility of a of Afterlife. Although I have not had a experience that lead me to this. I think there is more to the world than the eye can see and also to the body mind and soul.
No votes have been placed for this debate.