The Instigator
Thorwald
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Ragnar
Con (against)
Winning
17 Points

There is another 'dimension' alongside of the dimension we can see/hear in.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Ragnar
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/1/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 664 times Debate No: 37250
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (1)
Votes (3)

 

Thorwald

Pro

In 1966, when I was 17 years of age, I experienced the following;

It was an extremely beautiful sunny (not one cloud) very hot, summer day. I decided to drive my car to the beach, and spend the rest of the day there. I had all of the car windows rolled down.

I drove my car from my home in Geraldton, Ontario, Canada, south to the intersection with highway 11 (The Trans Canada Highway), which runs east-west. I stopped at the intersection with the highway, and looked in all directions to make certain there was no traffic. I was the only vehicle in the area. The road from Geraldton to the highway, was north-south and is perfectly aligned with magnetic north-south. Highway 11 at the intersection, is perfectly aligned with magnetic east-west.

After making sure that there was no other traffic, I was about to make a left turn on to highway 11, but could not do so. It was if 'there was a hand holding me back'. This surprised me. After waiting for a brief time period, I was about to proceed on to highway 11, again, when all of a sudden, a transport appeared right in front of me. At the same time as I saw the transport, I also heard it. It had appeared out of nowhere.

There had been many transport accidents with smaller personal vehicles at this intersection, all of which occurred on clear, sunny days. The drivers of the smaller vehicles (including one motorcycle driver), were all killed.

I spoke with a police officer about my experience. I was astonished by his response. He said, "We know this. Either the human brain is 'bringing back a past image' because a driver has drove the route many times, or 'there is another dimension'."

I could see the brain doing this (bringing back a prior 'image'), but it did not explain, the lack of SOUND.

Apparently, many fatal accidents on clear days, with some survivors stating that they didn't see the other vehicle, IS TRUE. There IS a hidden dimension. Perhaps there is some kind of 'link' to why planes/boats/people 'disappear' in the Bermuda triangle????
Ragnar

Con

In short:
Your argument is not supported by evidence.
Since you claim this occurrence is so common that even traffic cops 50 years ago knew about it, by now (if true) it should be listed on the Department Of Transportation website [1]. Please provide a link to the relevant page that lists other dimensions being to blame for traffic accidents.

"at the intersection, is perfectly aligned with magnetic east-west"
There are no magnetic poles in the east and west.
There's only magnetic North & South.

"I was about to make a left turn on to highway 11, but could not do so. It was if 'there was a hand holding me back'."
A hand would be unable to hold back a car, even were it invisible.
More likely you dozed out for a minute, and were surprised by the appearance of a truck (Occam's Razor).
Or you were an inattentive driver, who was so used to the route you did not notice the truck until it was close enough; which would explain the sound even under the past images idea; since why would the fill in the blanks image be a truck instead of the empty road that is most common there?

"The drivers of the smaller vehicles (including one motorcycle driver), were all killed"
Your argument begins to counter itself, since you previously stated there's a magical hand holding people back from the dangers.


Sources:
[1] (provided to assist pro) http://www.dot.gov...
Debate Round No. 1
Thorwald

Pro

I am certain you are not as 'stupid' as your comment seems to portray. There is a difference between 'TRUE' north and 'MAGNETIC' north.

There is no 'PROOF' of the existence of 'ANOTHER DIMENSION' alongside the one we commonly 'live within'. The results [accidents] by properly trained drivers/pilots, fully alert at the time of the 'accident' without any reason for the accident, are all that we have. The same is true of the Bermuda Triangle. We do not know how certain things happened, but we have many documented cases of these events, where there are survivors.

I did not say that there was a physical hand stopping me from proceeding into the intersection. It was 'like' there was a hand holding me back from making the body movements required to drive my vehicle forward. I was 'locked into' holding my foot on the brake. I could not proceed with the vehicle, until the transport came into view and I could see it. It simply WAS NOT VISIBLE AND I COULD NOT HEAR IT, until this occurred.

I doubt that this type of phenomenon would EVER be recognized by the transportation departments. Anyone could use this as an excuse for an accident, and no one would insure anyone. It is, however, very real.

A strange thing happened at this same intersection. There was a right-hand merge constructed in order to head west, and no further accidents have happened at this corner since. You explain it...I can't. I also know people who faced the same kind of thing, in regards to railway crossings, where they did not see a train that was almost 'on top' of them. Again, accidents happened at these crossings on perfectly clear, sunny days. The police know of these things. There is nothing that they can do about it. We also, cannot live our lives in a 'paranoid' state. If we were to question every situation at intersections, as being something actually different than what we are seeing & hearing, then no one would would ever enter the intersections.
Ragnar

Con

Human Error:
Please watch the YouTube video provided.
The phenomenon shown tells a lot about road accidents. Highly visible things, go unnoticed to us [2].

Cross Examination:
Since you claim this occurrence is so common... please provide a link to the relevant page on the Department Of Transportation website [1]. Police or other government agencies would also be fine.
Even the navy has a page on the Bermuda Triangle, which they don't believe in [3].

The Bermuda/Devil Triangle:
Easily explained. From the National Ocean Services [4]:
  • "The majority of Atlantic tropical storms and hurricanes pass through the Bermuda Triangle, and in the days prior to improved weather forecasting, these dangerous storms claimed many ships. Also, the Gulf Stream can cause rapid, sometimes violent, changes in weather. Additionally, the large number of islands in the Caribbean Sea creates many areas of shallow water that can be treacherous to ship navigation."
"There is no 'PROOF' of the existence of 'ANOTHER DIMENSION...'"
Human error is a more likely explanation, which has plenty of proof to support it.

"It was 'like' there was a hand ... holding my foot on the brake."
Ok, so again... If your hypothesis is true, there's a magical invisible hand preventing accidents caused by this other dimension. Thus the accidents referenced become even more likely human error instead of another dimension.

"There was a right-hand merge constructed in order to head west, and no further accidents have happened at this corner since. You explain it...I can't."
A merge lane was added... I guess I need to spell out that merge lanes give people a better chance to merge onto a road safely? The main reason for this is they pull into the merge lane, rather trying to slip between potentially fast moving vehicles; plus while on the merge lane they are visible for a longer period of time.

Conclusion:
Either

  • A: The moonwalking bear hails from another dimension, and that's why it could go unnoticed.
  • OR
  • B: Human error. Even with training, we make sometimes fatal mistakes.


Sources:
[2] YouTube video
[3] http://www.history.navy.mil...
[4] http://oceanservice.noaa.gov...

Debate Round No. 2
Thorwald

Pro

There are a lot of unexplained occurrences on this earth, that if several occur at the same time, in the same place, for only perhaps a matter of 'seconds' at a time, and then disappear again thus leaving no 'proof' behind. How do you therefore, prove that they 'exist, with hard evidence? You have to rely on witnesses, who experienced the occurrence, or the aftermath of a disaster.

A well-known phenomenon, is the occurrence of 'air pockets'. We know they exist, but are unaware in advance, where they are, at any specific time. A plane can drop 100 feet while flying through the air, when they fly through the air pocket. Since there is no resistance, the drag force, lift and thrust is affected. One plane hit an air pocket while on approach to landing, turned upside down and crashed into the ground, killing all on board.

What is the effect on 'SOUND' in an air pocket? What is the effect on 'LIGHT' (reflection versus refraction)? What is the effect on road vehicles travelling through an air pocket? What is the effect on human life, if a person enters an air pocket while travelling in a boat on open water?

There are many hidden dangers that we face here on earth. Why do some survive, while others don't? Why are not ALL drivers protected from these dangers? To me, it is very simple. When you believe in God, and follow His Word, you have God and His holy angels watching over you. Without this 'armour' you become a 'fatality statistic'.

We are taught, that 'perpetual motion' is impossible. This is a fallacy. The surveyors employed during the construction of the railway west of Sudbury, Ontario, experienced their compasses' needles, 'spinning' on their own. I also experienced this while staking mining claims north-west of Geraldton, Ontario. The compasses west of Sudbury were affected by the Sudbury Basin metal deposits. In my case, my compass was affected by the magnetite bands running through the mining claim that I was staking. Evidently, the compasses were affected by both north-south magnetic fields and north-north/south-south magnetic fields (folding of the magnetite bands?). If this knowledge could be used to 'create' a man-made occurrence similar to the natural occurrence, then we would be able to create perpetual motion motors.

What I experienced (as I wrote in my original post, above), is the truth. I was not in a 'trance', nor was I not paying attention to my driving. I was perfectly aware of my surroundings. As I mentioned, I tried to enter the intersection, but was unable to do so. The experience has been with me throughout my life. I can still see (from memory), the road, as it was, before the truck appeared and I then heard it. This is the impact that this experience has left on me. There was nothing to warn me in advance, of the impending danger.
Ragnar

Con

Pro's case falls on the lack of evidence to prove it; which is no case at all.
Referencing the R2 video; if you believe the moonwalking bear was not seen the first play-through because it only appeared from another dimension later, vote pro; if you believe it was there the whole time, but humans are fallible vote con.

To be sporting, here's some pointless rebuttals (I believe the above is all that is needed for voting)...

"You have to rely on witnesses, who experienced the occurrence, or the aftermath of a disaster."
Word of mouth does not prove other dimensions are to blame. Saying something is unexplained is believable, saying it's unexplained therefore it must be another dimension; is about like claiming there's a rainbow, so there must be a leprechaun at one end.

"Air Pockets."
Turbulence on aircraft is well documented; it has to do with varying ground temperature (say a cool lake vs a hot parking lot). Warmer air (heated by the ground) rises, causing cooler air to fall. This affects aircrafts. It's well known, and generally not a big deal [5].
It however has no impact on cars or boats; a boat traveling into one (doubtful as it is due to the water distributing the heat so rapidly) would not even notice it. The interior of a parked car on one would heat faster or slower, but that's the extent of it.

"When you believe in God, and follow His Word, you have God and His holy angels watching over you. Without this 'armour' you become a 'fatality statistic'."
Again your case counters itself, since you reference (without evidence) plane disasters; was there not a single Christian fatality on any plane that crashed? Plenty of them [6].

"compasses' needles, 'spinning' on their own"
Yeah underground near a lot of metal, they tend to get confused by the various nearby magnetic fields. Hold one to your belt buckle, and ask yourself if the result is another dimension, or merely the normal working order of a pointed magnet spinning freely on water.

If you'd like you can start a forum topic, where I answer your questions on "unexplained" basic science.

Sources:
[5] http://www.foxnews.com...
[6] http://www.usatoday.com...
Debate Round No. 3
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Ragnar 1 year ago
Ragnar
Advice:
Directly above the argument text window, there's a small link that says "Rich Text." By clicking that you can use things like bold and italic text, to improve your presentation.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by dj21 1 year ago
dj21
ThorwaldRagnarTied
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Reasons for voting decision: I am sympathetic to Pro's argument in principle. I would note that "dimension" is a pretty hazy concept, and Pro would have been better served by starting with a premise that was less assertive than "There is"... that was a pretty impossible burden of proof. I think he'd have been better served by introducing the idea of string theory, which demands extra dimensions (at least 10). Though I am personally skeptical of it as a TOE solution, at it has bonafied support among intellectual heavyweights like Richard Dawkins. Pro offered little more than personal perspective. To my view, Con didn't offer much more than standard naturalist refutations, but that was enough for me to believe he did a better job of making his case in this debate.
Vote Placed by calculatedr1sk 1 year ago
calculatedr1sk
ThorwaldRagnarTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Even if it was true that another dimension exists, Pro presented absolutely no compelling reason for us to think that is the case. Con easily refuted the few flimsy reasons that were provided (magnetic fields, air pockets), and gave us good reason to agree with his claim that Christians are no more immune to suffering tragedies than anyone else is. Sources were straightforward since Con reinforced his position with them while Pro relied only on his own firsthand experience, and the firm but unsubstantiated conclusions he drew from it. His comment "I am certain you are not as 'stupid' as your comment seems to portray." was disrespectful and uncalled for, so I'm docking him on conduct. Was Pro just expecting an opponent in a debate to agree with him with an "oh wow, you're right"? Respect is expected of debate participants. Con nudges close to being codescending at times (a trait which I also struggle to overcome) but he restrained himself well enough to not be penalized.
Vote Placed by donald.keller 1 year ago
donald.keller
ThorwaldRagnarTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro's R1 was just a personal experience... Con did great, showing his side with solid evidence and a great deal of real detail. Pro lost conduct bad, especially with this: "I am certain you are not as 'stupid' as your comment seems to portray." S&G where even. Con wiped Pro's arguments away. Pro kept switching up and dropping arguments. Con had plenty of research and sources backing him up.