The Instigator
wolfgangxx
Pro (for)
Winning
22 Points
The Contender
mattrodstrom
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

There is good reason to believe in the, inherent, Intellectual superiority of the Mongoloid 'Race'

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
wolfgangxx
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/16/2010 Category: Society
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,198 times Debate No: 11757
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (40)
Votes (4)

 

wolfgangxx

Pro

First of all let me state that the resolution was suggested by con in the forum and while i think it is a very apt resolution I have a slight problem with the quotation marks around the word: race. I suspect this issue of is race real or is it just a social construct will become a point of contention in the debate, however i might just be reading too much into it - i will let con enlighten the readers and I as to what he meant by the quotation marks.

By saying inherent I mean to say that genetically mongoloids are at a advantage, intellectually, to other races - i suspect the two that will come up the most will be black and whites.

I am starting this debate hoping that by the end i will no longer hold this assertion as there is nothing so good for the mind as being proved wrong. And as i can't vote since i am unable to confirm my identity ( they can't seem to send texts to the UK) i ask con to refrain from voting for himself.

I will let con put forward his arguments first, may the best debater win =]
mattrodstrom

Con

Firstly I'd like to say that I too am looking forward to this debate; and while I'm not hoping I'll be proved wrong, I do hope to learn something from this debate, and if it's that "Mongoloids" are, in fact, intellectually superior, So Be It. :)

Now to clarify my having put quotations around the word "race" I was doing so not because I am looking to deny that racial groups exist, or make it any kind of a point of contention in the debate, but because naming such race groups is generally considered a subjective and somewhat arbitrary practice, and I wouldn't want to suggest that there is, in fact, such clear distinctions to be observed.

I understand what you mean by "Mongoloid Race" and am not looking to play semantics, or force you to explain "race" more than "such and such" group of people who have supposedly had more contact among themselves than with others in the past few thousand years or so, resulting in generally identifiable similarity amongst the group when compared with other peoples.

That being said, I think the last thing I shall say in this first round is that I am not looking to prove "Mongoloids" intellectually inferior, nor am I looking to prove any "races" to be (inherently) intellectually "equal". I think that there's too many social factors at play, and not enough relevant physiological information, to have opinions on such things.

Oh, and my actual final statement is that I too cannot vote (I don't have a cell phone), so you don't have to worry about me tipping the scales.

And, Here's to a good debate! :)
Debate Round No. 1
wolfgangxx

Pro

I thank my opponent for his speedy response.

CON: I understand what you mean by the "Mongoloid Race"

Well just so the readers know as well, when I talk about the "Mongoloid Race" I am talking about East-Asians and the Chinese, Japanese and Korean in particular (since they are the most well known countries of eastern Asia and because there is a lot of data from these countries for both my opponent and I to use). It does not matter where exactly they are situated be in Sydney or Shanghai.

But without further ado i'd like to tackle CON's two arguments:

1.
CON: naming such race groups is generally considered a subjective and somewhat arbitrary practice […] I wouldn't want to suggest that there is, in fact, such clear distinctions to be observed.

I would beg to differ, in the 2004 Stanford Study [1] 3,636 individuals of varying ethnicity from 15 different locations in Taiwan and America were asked to state their self-identified race. Microsatellite markers taken from these individuals produced four major clusters after genetic cluster analysis:

__________A____B___C____D
Caucasian_1348_ 0___0____1
African____3____0___1305_0
Hispanic___1____0___0____411
Chinese___0____407_0____0
Japanese__0____160_0____0
Other_____1____2___0____9

As you can see only 5 individuals identified wrongly (0.14%) – a tiny fraction, most likely of mixed race parentage but that is mere guesswork on my part; more importantly, in the context of this debate, not a single self identified Chinese or Japanese identified wrongly - further affirming that race, is something where quite "clear distinctions [are] to be observed." Excluding, ofcourse children of mixed racial ancestry where it would be absurd to expect them to fall into a distinct racial group – but we are debating mongoloids and not children of mixed racial ancestry. So unless you have contrary proof you must admit that there are quite "clear distinctions in race" and that race is not "subjective".

2.
CON: there's too many social factors at play, and not enough relevant physiological information, to have opinions on such things.

I agree social factors are an issue and it is a plausible hypothesis that east asian parents push their children to achieve academically and that is why they do well. However if we to take away these "social factors" and replaced them with other ones (adoption studies) yet the race IQ hierarchy (Mongoloids at the top end) still persisted then we would know that genetics plays a major role in IQ determination. This has been done with Korean children and white adoptive families [2] and the results are below:

Country__Age___N*___Average IQ
Belgium__6-14__19___110
USA_____6-14__112__107

* N is the number of participants

As you can see from the table their IQs were not detrimentally effected by this - if anything their IQs were bettered (the average east-asian(mongoloid) IQ is 104, the adopted children in the USA averaged 107 and the adopted children in Belgium averaged 110) I, personally, put this down to better nutrition as the average of 104 included results from china and while china is not a third world country by any means it simply cannot compare with nutritional standards in the developed west. Also, as you can see from the link [2] the IQ of 110 is actually for verbal IQ but performance IQ is much higher at 123.5 and the mean IQ is actually 118.7, so if anything I am depressing the scores. And ofcourse an IQ of 118.7, 110 or even 107 is above the average white IQ of 100 which is what you would expect if it was all down to social factors.

In short, I have proven that all of CON's points in round one are incorrect.

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
[2] http://www.sciencedirect.com...

I would now like to offer some evidence of Mongoloids/(East Asians)'s intellectual superiority (for those who don't only doubt the genetic inherentness of the IQ gap but also the IQ gap itself) measured both in terms of SAT scores and IQ scores

1. The bell curve of IQ for East Asians is situated more to the right (meaning higher average IQ) than whites and blacks.

http://www.udel.edu...

2. They have the highest graduation rates of all the races: http://www.highbeam.com...

3. Research from about 620 studies confirm the IQ hierarchy - Mongoloids, Caucasoids, Negroids (if you have the time please watch Philippe Rushton's whole talk as he explains this issue more eloquently than I could ever hope to )

4. Asians average 1623, whites 1345 and africans 1276 in SAT scores.
http://www.usatoday.com...

5. There is even talk of reverse discrimination by US's top universities to keep asians out as on average an asian needs an extra of "140 points" more than their white counterparts to get into the same course at the same university

http://www.neatorama.com...
http://hanopolis.com...

Ah, the word limit is almost upon me and as I want to give CON a chance to make fresh arguments rather than just attempting to refute all mine I will leave it here for the time being. In summary there is a real IQ gap between Mongoloids and other races that favours the mongoloids and this IQ gap is at least partly genetic.
mattrodstrom

Con

Given the nature of my position in this debate; that I'm rejecting your assertion of the existence of an inherent intellectual hierarchy without making an assertion of my own; it would seem that my role is mostly one of attempting to tear down your arguments, and explain why I don't think they're sound.
I apologize for monopolizing the fun, but that's what it seems the debate requires
---

First to address your responses to my "arguments"

1. On the topic of the identification of "Race Groups"
Again I do not wish to make this is an important aspect of our debate; and, I did not make an "argument" on the matter in my first round, as you said I did. This is what I said:

"Now to clarify my having put quotations around the word "race" I was doing so not because I am looking to deny that racial groups exist, or make it any kind of a point of contention in the debate, but because naming such race groups is generally considered a subjective and somewhat arbitrary practice, and I wouldn't want to suggest that there is, in fact, such clear distinctions to be observed."
I concede the point that various "race" groups are physically disntinguishable, be it by direct appearance, or by particular genetic clusters which happen to have more frequency over one particular "race" than another.

2. I would first say that your presentation of the information for your argument here appears to be rather poor, such that I'm having difficulty understanding what your information is, or how it's particularly relevant and being that the actual article (which contains that table you present) is off limits to me. I'd appreciate it if you could make it clearer what the study's method and results were, and how that supports your case, and/or also try to provide a working link to the actual study such that I can analyze it.

I garnered from your presentation that some Koreans were adopted into some white families in Belgium and in The U.S. and that these adopted Koreans generally well on IQ tests. I fail to see how this shows Koreans as being intellectually superior.

Also you asserted that the adopted Korean subjects scores were higher than the average White score of 100 (which
was not in the abstract which you linked to). This I suppose is supposed to be evidence of Korean's being demonstrably more intelligent than whites.

In reality all this would show (if you did substantiate your claim about the average white IQ score) is that Koreans adopted into white families apparently do better on IQ tests. There are many plausible explanations for this apparent trend which do not deal with the inherent characteristics of "races".

It could very well be that those "White" families in America and Belgium who sought to not only adopt children, but sought to adopt "Mongoloid" children, were more well off than the average "white" family group. The In fact it seems rather apparent to me that poor whites are more racist than fairly well off ones, and so it would make sense that those whites who do decide to adopt an Asian kid are more likely to be relatively well off compared to average whites. Also, being that adoption is, by it's nature, a fairly long and well thought out process I think we can assume that those people who adopt children are probably at least a little more likely to have the means available to Rear them well then those people who have their own children; a good portion of which were probably "accidents".

If those Korean kids were adopted into better than average white households; as I think I showed is likely the case; then it would make perfect sense that they end up getting a better than average IQ on this basis alone. This here New York Times article: http://www.nytimes.com...; cites a study in which this reinforcing relationship between the affluency of the adopting household and the adopted child's intelligence is illustrated clearly.

Here is a relevant exerpt: "The average I.Q. of children from well-to-do parents who were placed with families from the same social stratum was 119.6. But when such infants were adopted by poor families, their average I.Q. was 107.5 — 12 points lower. The same holds true for children born into impoverished families: youngsters adopted by parents of similarly modest means had average I.Q.'s of 92.4, while the I.Q.'s of those placed with well-off parents averaged 103.6. These studies confirm that environment matters — the only, and crucial, difference between these children is the lives they have led. "

Again, those who adopt are likely to have a greater chance of being more financially prepared to provide for children, than those who do not, and if whites seek to adopt Asian Babe's they are likely, on average, less racist, AND more well educated then and financially secure than average white people. As the NYT article points out, the financial security of the family, and their education level, can very much affect the resulting intelligence of the adopted child. So I hope you could agree that, in this light, concluding that the Korean children WERE "inherently" more intelligent than the average white child, rather than just raised in a more financially sound and intellectually stimulating environment, is a rather large leap to take and ignores other VERY plausible reasons.

Now to address your new points.

1."The bell curve of IQ for East Asians is situated more to the right (meaning higher average IQ) than whites and blacks." http://www.udel.edu...

This document you link to has no information whatsoever on any study that was ever done. It does assert that the IQ for East Asians is ahead of the curve, but doesn't back it up.

It's not that I don't believe that the author, and the signatories to her work, have found that to be the case, it's that I'd like to know how they found that to be the case:
Which "East Asians"? The one's residing in the U.S.A. (which may, in general, have all sorts of relevant social advantages, and quirks, for one reason or another)
The one's in China? Korea? Japan? Where? Perhaps "East Asians" all throughout the world?
Your source doesn't provide any such answers. It just offers a bare assertion with no actual material for analysis.

How can I argue with an unsupported assertion?

2. "They have the highest graduation rates of all the races: http://www.highbeam.com...... "

And yet you also said this:
"I agree social factors are an issue and it is a plausible hypothesis that east asian parents push their children to achieve academically and that is why they do well."
earlier that post when saying that you can control (as you'd presumably need to) for the mentioned factors in the adoption study you mentioned.

You were right to think such things need be controlled for, for they VERY plausibly would affect things like graduation rates.

For example: Which East Asians come to America the industrious ones or the lazy ones? The ones who will push their kids or the one's who wont? Further East Asians are more than just biologically similar, they are culturally similar too. The Confucian tradition prizes education, and prizes fulfilling what society and your family expects of you. Also East Asians have long had a tradition of meritocracy. One can easily see how Cultural factors are likely at play in the graduation rates of East Asians.

Could it be that inherent intellectual superiority is also at play?...
Perhaps, but given the OBVIOUS social factors which could easily explain this phenomenon this example also cannot be taken as Evidence of inherent difference.

3. I too could link to some dude talking about things with no studies cited, no analysis on my part, and no real argument. This video is not evidence. Why don't you cite one of those "160 studies" and come up with some argument rather than link to this dude.

4. Same as 2

5. Quite irrelevant
Debate Round No. 2
wolfgangxx

Pro

It does indeed seem I have the burden of proof.

Before I start I'd like to thank CON for conceding that races do infact exist as we will no longer have to use up our word limits debating that point.

-------------------
Rebuttal
-------------------

1.CON said: "I wouldn't want to suggest that there is, in fact, such clear distinctions to be observed." I proved there were clear distinctions. He conceded the point.

2.
"try to provide a working link"

As for my link it does work and the abstract in the link clearly states that the adopted Korean children's mean IQ is 118.7. The very fact that it has been published shows that it has passed through a rigorous peer review process and that there is no call to question the facts in the abstract any more than there is for me to question the stats in CON's NY times article. Infact, since the article written in the NY times has not been peer reviewed it is more likely to be inaccurate or misrepresent information than the paper I linked to.

"average White score of 100 (which was not in the abstract which you linked to)[…] (if you did substantiate your claim about the average white IQ score) "

CON seems to be in some doubt about whether 100 (by design, the average score) is infact the average IQ for whites (the race that designed the IQ test). Here are some links.
http://www.rlynn.co.uk...
http://www.vnnforum.com...
http://www.lrainc.com...
http://www.lrainc.com...

I quote from the second link:

Italy IQ 102
Germany IQ 102
Netherlands IQ 102
Austria IQ 102
Sweden IQ 101
United Kingdom IQ 100
Belgium IQ 100
Spain IQ 99
Iceland IQ 98
Poland IQ 99
Australia IQ 98
France IQ 98
Norway IQ 98
___________________
Avg. 100 IQ

"Again, those who adopt are likely to have a greater chance of being more financially prepared to provide for children, than those who do not, and if whites seek to adopt Asian Babe's they are likely, on average, less racist, AND more well educated then and financially secure than average white people."

Since there is a longer history of prejudice against blacks than against east-asians in the US, it is then logical that parents who would adopt a black child would be more open-minded, less-racist, and better educated than the average parent who adopts an east-asian child or a white child. From this one would expect (if there was no genetic hierarchy) that black adopted children would do the best in IQ tests out of all the three main races since they would have the environmental advantage – but this is not the case. These black adopted children actually do worse than their white and east-asian counterparts, once again showing that there is an underlying genetic hierarchy. In the Minnesota study black children who were adopted by well-off white parents scored an average of 87 in IQ tests when they were 17. If it were all down to the environment then one would have expected the results to be at least close to the Korean results if not better.

http://psychology.wikia.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Now to CON's rebuttals.

1.
"[PRO says] East Asians is ahead of the curve, but doesn't back it up"

You have not objected to the fact that East-Asians do better on SAT tests compared to their white counterparts yet SAT tests correlate positively with IQ scores showing that just as Asians have a higher average SAT score they also have a higher IQ score.

Some links affirming the positive correlation:
http://www.scienceblog.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

"It's not that I don't believe that the author, and the signatories to her work, have found that to be the case, it's that I'd like to know how they found that to be the case: Which "East Asians"? The one's residing in the U.S.A. (which may, in general, have all sorts of relevant social advantages, and quirks, for one reason or another)The one's in China? Korea? Japan? Where? Perhaps "East Asians" all throughout the world?Your source doesn't provide any such answers"

http://psychology.uwo.ca...

On p245 there is the following table (To save space I have cut out everything except the IQ scores and the sample size but please have a look yourself if you want the whole table):

____________HongKong___Japan___Britain____South Africa
Sample Size__118_________110____239_______350
IQ score_____113_________110____100_______67

As you can see, it is not only East-Asians in the western world that score higher on average in IQ tests but East-Asians throughout the world.

2. "Which East Asians come to America the industrious ones or the lazy ones?"

Ignoring the fact that East-Asians (especially the chinese) first came en masse to America as slaves, you could make the same argument for Mexicans crossing the Mexican border. Who would make the effort to get across the border, the industrious ones or the lazy ones? Yet Mexicans, unlike east-asians, are not over-represented in Ivy league schools so as the reader can see it is not merely a question of "industry".

3. "I too could link to some dude talking".

I'm sorry but a professor who collaborates with Harvard and has either worked or graduated from the University of Toronto, Western Ontario, York, London, Oxford and London School of Economics giving an hour long lecture, is not "some dude".

4. See 2.

5. I was merely highlighting the fact that even Universities accept the IQ difference and attempts to normalize their student intake accordingly by using "positive discrimination".

To summarise, I have once again proved all CON's assertions to be inaccurate and have shown that mongoloids (east-asians) are indeed at an inherent intellectual advantage compared to other races.

I urge CON to accept that there is a difference in IQ as most if not all researchers in the field agree there is, and instead debate me on the cause of this which is the real point of contention between researchers. I do not wish to waste another 4,5 thousand words on something that is already accepted as true but only dedicate one thousand words to the point of real contention.
mattrodstrom

Con

sorry, very busy at the moment. Will post rebuttals next round.

And I suggest that all potential voters give Wolfgang the conduct point for my lack of participation in this round.
Debate Round No. 3
wolfgangxx

Pro

I regret to see that CON did not participate in the last round but I am sure it was due to circumstances beyond his control. So that whatever it was CON was busy with is over or at least under-control I have waited until the end of the third day to post my argument so that CON will have had 6 days in all to deal with whatever it was and type up his rebuttals.

I extend all my previous arguments and will not put forward any new ones this round so that CON is still able to rebut all my arguments while staying within the word limit.
mattrodstrom

Con

mattrodstrom forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
wolfgangxx

Pro

Regrettably, CON has forfeited once again.

I am slightly unhappy with this as unless CON was given no prior warning of his final, he should have been able to work out that rounds 4 and 5 will be during his exams and therefore should have not accepted the challenge.

On the question of my sources, let me say that while my opponent has relied solely on news paper articles; I have used evidence from peer-reviewed scientific journals for the my main points (the adoption studies and most of the IQ figures) and used news paper articles for things such as SAT scores which are less controversial and did not, in my opinion, need much proving.

The youtube video of Professor J. Philippe Rushton was merely for readers who wished to have a more in depth look at the subject and I did not quote anything from it other than that there were many papers showing that there was an IQ difference (I quoted once such paper in the next round and also copied a table from it)

To reiterate my arguments: there have been numerous studies confirming that there is an IQ/intelligence hierarchy and this fact is generally accepted in the scientific community. However, what scientific researchers do not agree on is whether this IQ difference is 100% environment or if it has a genetic factor to it as well. (Please remember that all I have to do is to prove that there is a 1% genetic factor and i'll have proven that some races are at a - inherent - intellectual advantage.)

To prove that this IQ gap is not entirely down to environment I have quoted many trans-racial adoption studies involving blacks and mongloids. These have shown that even when adopted into white families the mongoloids still score higher than average on the IQ test (around 108); my opponent, at this point, said that the adopting families are obviously well-off if they can afford to adopt and and that wealth is negatively correlated to racism so these Korean children will have an environmental advantage. I responded that if this were the case then black children who were adopted by white parents must have even bigger of an environmental advantage since there is a longer history of racism towards blacks so they should score at least as well as the Koreans - however they do not, and what is more they actually score BELOW the national average (around 87) showing that environment cannot account for everything.

For these reasons I urge the PRO vote.

Thankyou for your time.
mattrodstrom

Con

Vote Pro!
Debate Round No. 5
40 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by wolfgangxx 4 years ago
wolfgangxx
"I agree."
with who?

anyways calling me racist is akin to calling someone sexist for saying that men, on average, are stronger than women.
Posted by Zetsubou 4 years ago
Zetsubou
Racist!!!

I agree.
Posted by wolfgangxx 4 years ago
wolfgangxx
@Tboone

"Not for nothing...but look at China vs US or Europe...where would most people rather be?"
Europe but that is because most European countries are a democracy and have a better enviroment whereas china is polluted and technically still communist. This does not prove anything other than that there are ideological differences and that we have more people to help pollute our environment.

Where is all the technology? Where does it originate from?
Japan for most things, but America for stuff to blow other stuff up. ¬¬

Where do they all come to learn? Exactly.
Universities with the best funding attract the best students, universities with the best students get the best funding. This ensures that Oxbridge and Ivy-league universities are always at the top of university leader boards.

But on the subject of Universities, which group is ridiculously over represented in the top Universities? Which group is actively discriminated against by both government laws (Affirmative Action) and Universities to keep the "demographics normal"? Don't come here if you haven't got any facts to back you up.
Posted by wolfgangxx 4 years ago
wolfgangxx
One round or the whole debate?
Posted by wolfgangxx 4 years ago
wolfgangxx
T__________________________________________________________T

ok.
Posted by mattrodstrom 4 years ago
mattrodstrom
Sorry dude... It's finals... and I'm ridiculous about not doing papers and stuff...

I'ma gonna forfeit.
Posted by wolfgangxx 4 years ago
wolfgangxx
"If the best vid you could find of this guy speaking was when he was paid and filmed by a group like them then it should probably tell you something."

I did a vagueish youtube search...not exactly scouring the depths :P

"made me lol" ^^

"Half of the text of his wiki page is serious criticism of his methods and conclusions. I don't think the same can be said of many respectable scientists."

Touche. However, i believe that all the studies I have quoted are not by J.Rushton (The adoption ones I am sure of, some of the IQ ones i'm not so sure - but there are mountains of IQ studies so no worries =]). Furthermore - i admit this is a rather cliched argument - all the revolutionary thinkers were derided for their beliefs and sometimes persecuted for it e.g Galileo, so it might simply be that we simply have on our hands yet another revolutionary thinker.

"discrimination OR prejudice" ah, yes but lets ask the question of: what would the government do should the racial heirarchy theory be accepted by everyone as true? They would further push for Affirmative Action, and attempt to give Africans Americans more help at the expense of whites and asians. In short, the only people who would benefit from this being widely accepted are the people who are the "victims" of this theory. There would be discrimintaion. But just not against whites and blacks.

I do not believe this is racist any more than saying that asians, on average and the shortest and blacks are the tallest.

Good to see you're not one of these facepalm-provoking anarchists =]

and @tboone these sources are all in scientific journals which have rigorous peer-review systems and are intrinsically more trustworthy than any newspaper article CON would care to quote. Newspapers are not peer-reviewed, scientific papers are.
Posted by Puck 4 years ago
Puck
predictive*
Posted by Puck 4 years ago
Puck
"The only thing the test measures is the test...no more, no less."

No. If that was the case IQ wouldn't be predicitive of anything. However it is ...
Posted by tBoonePickens 4 years ago
tBoonePickens
Not for nothing...but look at China vs US or Europe...where would most people rather be? Where is all the technology? Where does it originate from? Where do they all come to learn? Exactly.

IF I trusted the source (which I don't) all it means is that some people do better on IQ tests than others. The only thing the test measures is the test...no more, no less.
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