The Instigator
hauki20
Pro (for)
Winning
5 Points
The Contender
Republican95
Con (against)
Losing
1 Points

There is no Hell

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/18/2009 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,856 times Debate No: 8337
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (13)
Votes (3)

 

hauki20

Pro

Please take note, we are debating about Christian hell. Not Muslim hell, nor any other religion's hell, but Christian hell.

Hell: the place or state of punishment of the wicked after death; the abode of evil and condemned spirits; Gehenna or Tartarus.

http://dictionary.reference.com...

According to the Bible, if you don't believe in the Christian God, you will be sent to hell for eternal punishment after your death. I believe there is no hell.

That is all for now, my opponent may begin.
Republican95

Con

Okay, this is my first debate online...so, bear with me...

If you are a Christian that believes that the Bible is truth than you have to believe that there is a hell. Why, Luke 12:4-5 says "I tell you my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has the power to through you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

That was Jesus Christ speaking.

This passage explains that God has the power to through us into Hell. He might not send people there, but it does exist.
Debate Round No. 1
hauki20

Pro

Thank you for accepting my debate, and good luck to us both ;)

Before getting to my opponent's arguments, I will make some myself. I will start off with some quotes.
----
"If my daughter is in Hell because she did not get "born again" then I'd rather go to Hell and be with her than to be with your God because there would be more love in Hell than near your vindictive God."

"How can you say burning someone alive forever is "just" or "fair" for everyone who hasn't accepted Jesus Christ? Even we humans fit the punishment to the crime. According to you, Christians, people are destined to be burned in Hell whether we are bad or not. Just being born into this world is grounds for being endlessly tortured. You say the punishment is the same regardless of the number of sins committed or how bad they were. This is not justice--this is insanity!"

"Infinite punishment for finite crimes just doesn't seem just."

"I could never torture people endlessly, especially my own children. How can you say that God will do that to His children? This seems hideous. You make God look like a monster worse than Hitler, not a loving Father Who would even die for His enemies!"

"If the wages of sin is eternal punishment in Hell, then Jesus would have to be eternally punished if in fact He died for my sins. But the Bible says the wages of sin is death which is exactly what Jesus did--died. So how can you say people will be eternally tortured in Hell? Is Jesus presently being eternally tortured in place of those who accepted Him as Lord?" (Source: http://tentmaker.org...)
----
These are very good, logical questions which I find hard, if not impossible to answer.

More questions about the rationality of the concept of Hell.
----
• If Hell as a place of everlasting tortures was the real fate of all mankind unless they did something here on earth to prevent it, why didn't God make that warning plain right at the beginning of the Bible? God said the penalty for eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was DEATH. He did NOT define death as eternal life being forever tortured in burning fire and brimstone.

• If Hell was real why didn't Moses warn about this fate in the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Covenant consisting of over 600 laws, ordinances, and warnings? The Mosaic Law simply stated blessings and cursings IN THIS LIFETIME for failure to keep the Mosaic Law.

• If Hell is real and it is a place of eternally being separated from God, why does David say in the King James Bible, "Though I make my bed in Hell (Sheol) lo, Thou art there? (Again please note, most Christian Bibles NO LONGER have the word "Hell" in the Old Testament. The KJV written over 350 years ago is an exception. The Jews do NOT put the word "Hell" in their English translations of the Hebrew Scriptures, that is, the Old Testament and the leading English Christian Bibles have removed it because it is NOT in the originals.

• If Hell is real and if good people go to heaven and bad people go to Hell, why does EVERYONE, good or bad, go to the same place in the Old Testament? They ALL go to Sheol which the King James Version translated "Hell" thirty-0ne times, "grave" thirty-one times and "pit" three times? Are we all destined to go to Hell or did the King's translators make some gross translation errors?

• If Hell was real, why did Church leaders as late as the fourth century AD acknowledge that the majority of Christians believed in the salvation of all mankind? (Ref, #1)

• If Hell doesn't exist in the Old Testament, how could Jesus and his disciples teach that salvation was deliverance from a place that is not even found in their Scriptures? (There was only the Old Testament at that time.) Would that not make Him appear like a false teacher?

• If Hell was real, why did the first comparatively complete systematic statement of Christian doctrine ever given to the world by Clement of Alexandria, A.D. 180, contain the tenet of universal salvation? (Ref. #1)
----
[quote]This passage explains that God has the power to through us into Hell. He might not send people there, but it does exist.[/quote]

If you believe in hell, you have to believe that those who do not believe in the Christian God will be sent there.
----
"If you are a Christian that believes that the Bible is truth than you have to believe that there is a hell. Why, Luke 12:4-5 says "I tell you my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has the power to through you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

Okay, let me make a hypothesis. Maybe this was added to the Bible later or it was a mistake in translation (the meaning of the word Gehenna [used in the passage] is debatable). There happens to be the valley of Gehenna (or something like it.)
Republican95

Con

First of all I have a personal question for you that doesn't relate to this debate: Are these views your own or do they represent the beliefs of the Lutheran church?

Opponent: "If my daughter is in Hell because she did not get "born again" then I'd rather go to Hell and be with her than to be with your God because there would be more love in Hell than near your vindictive God."

First of all, I totally reject the statement that God is vindictive. If God is so vindictive then why doesn't he just destroy the world for all of the sin that is in it?

Opponent: "How can you say burning someone alive forever is "just" or "fair" for everyone who hasn't accepted Jesus Christ?"

It is just and fair because we all have the capacity to believe in Jesus Christ. Like if you see a child that's been run over by a car, and you do not stop to help him or her you are just as bad as the person driving the car. And plus, some people don't deserve eternity in paradise.

Opponent: You say the punishment is the same regardless of the number of sins committed or how bad they were. This is not justice--this is insanity!"
It is irrelevant how many sins you have committed. As it says in John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son and whoever believes in him shall never die but have eternal life." So the requirements for entering Heaven is not walking the straight and narrow: It's a belief in Jesus Christ as the son of God.

Opponent: "Infinite punishment for finite crimes just doesn't seem just."
I would like to disagree. We all know we only have so much time on this Earth. So, if we choose not to follow Christ in the only life we have, what other option does God have?

Opponent: "I could never torture people endlessly, especially my own children. How can you say that God will do that to His children? This seems hideous. You make God look like a monster worse than Hitler, not a loving Father Who would even die for His enemies!"
God is a loving God. However, he is also a just God. There are several examples of this in scripture. The first is the story of Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve did something they were told they couldn't do. Therefore, they were kicked out of Eden. So this proves that God is a just God. I believe that God is just as human as the rest of us and he gets angry, sad, happy, etc. That's like your mother doesn't love you because she's grounded you a couple of times.

Opponent: "If the wages of sin is eternal punishment in Hell, then Jesus would have to be eternally punished if in fact He died for my sins. But the Bible says the wages of sin is death which is exactly what Jesus did--died. So how can you say people will be eternally tortured in Hell? Is Jesus presently being eternally tortured in place of those who accepted Him as Lord?
No, first of all Jesus was only dead for three days. He was resurrected and 40 days later ascended to HEAVEN. A first grade Sunday school class could tell you that...
And secondly, when the Bible says the wages of sin is death. It's not talking about physical death, it is talking about going to Hell.

Opponent: If Hell as a place of everlasting tortures was the real fate of all mankind unless they did something here on earth to prevent it, why didn't God make that warning plain right at the beginning of the Bible?
Why didn't he tell Adam and Eve that? Because he didn't know if they would eat from the tree of good and evil.

Opponent: "If Hell is real and it is a place of eternally being separated from God, why does David say in the King James Bible, "Though I make my bed in Hell (Sheol) lo, Thou art there?"
That was the OLD testament. The NEW testament (which is the basis of Christianity, and aren't we debating about Christian Hell; not Jewish Hell) makes several references to Heaven and Hell. And I thought you were trying to prove that Hell doesn't exist, well you just contradicted yourself. And I believe that when Christ returns a 2nd time, those who died before his death will be able to ascend to Heaven.

Opponent: "If Hell is real and if good people go to heaven and bad people go to Hell, why does EVERYONE, good or bad, go to the same place in the Old Testament?"
Because it's the Old Testament. That is Judaism, we're in the NEW testament, which is Christianity. I thought we were debating about CHRISTIAN hell; at least that is what you said. And I believe in the Old Testament God was still angry at the world because of Adam and Eve.

Opponent: "If Hell was real, why did Church leaders as late as the fourth century AD acknowledge that the majority of Christians believed in the salvation of all mankind?"
Christians are people. People don't always get everything right.

Opponent: If Hell doesn't exist in the Old Testament, how could Jesus and his disciples teach that salvation was deliverance from a place that is not even found in their Scriptures?
Jesus never spoke of deliverance from Hell. He spoke of deliverance from Evil.

Opponent: Okay, let me make a hypothesis. Maybe this was added to the Bible later or it was a mistake in translation (the meaning of the word Gehenna [used in the passage] is debatable). There happens to be the valley of Gehenna (or something like it.)
Since you have no proof that it was mistranslated, I would have faith in the Bible and believe that that scripture is true.
Debate Round No. 2
hauki20

Pro

Before commenting on my opponent's response, let me present another piece of evidence.

Let's examine the parable of Lasarus and the rich man, found in the New Testament, Luke 17:19-31.

"There was a rich young man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat wha fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came to lick his sores. The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side (heaven). The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus on his side. So he called up to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' [Read on, here's where it gets interesting.] But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is in comfort here and you are in agony. **AND besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that who want to go from here to you cannot, nor anyone cross over there to us.**'"

Read the last sentence again. First of all, GOD should be able to cross from one place to another, since he is said to be almighty in the Bible countless times. However, since "who want to go from here to you CANNOT", God is not almighty. So, we have two possibilities. Either:

1) God is not almighty, and therefore we have been officially fooled. Also, the Bible therefore contains lies, and since the Bible is the word of God and God cannot lie... We are faced with a dilemma. Maybe God is not loving. Maybe God is not just. Maybe God is not this and that.
2) There is no hell.

The passage goes on to say that rhe rich man begged god to send someone to warn his brothers about hell, but god declined. So, god had a chance to save five plus people from eternal flame and torture, but he CHOSE not to. Again, is this a loving god or is there no hell [this passage could've been added as a scare to make people behave or maybe it was a mistake in translation.]?

[quote]First of all I have a personal question for you that doesn't relate to this debate: Are these views your own or do they represent the beliefs of the Lutheran church?[/quote]

The Lutheran church has nothing to do with this. These are my own views. You could say I'm a rebel ;)

[quote]First of all, I totally reject the statement that God is vindictive. If God is so vindictive then why doesn't he just destroy the world for all of the sin that is in it?[/quote]

He will, as is established in the Revalation of John. And let me rephrase the statement. "If my daughter is in Hell because she did not get "born again" then I'd rather go to Hell and be with her than to be with your God."

[quote]It is just and fair because we all have the capacity to believe in Jesus Christ. Like if you see a child that's been run over by a car, and you do not stop to help him or her you are just as bad as the person driving the car. And plus, some people don't deserve eternity in paradise.[/quote]

Okay. If I were your child [or best friend] (as humans are god's children), could you, as a loving father, send me to a place of torture, and pain? If you did that, would you also make me immortal so that I could not simply die, but would have to endure the pain and who knows what for an eternity?

Could you? No. Then how could god, who is said to *be* love? "God IS love."

Here is my logical problem with hell. Why does God only allow those who believe in him into heaven, regardless of what they did? Is believing in something a good enough basis to send someone into *everlasting torture*, aka. Hell, aka. lake of fire. Second, why doesn't god just take all people into heaven, regardless of whether or not they believed in him? That would be loving (saving the creatures HE CREATED from everlasting torture.) Let's suppose there a guy dies, is an atheist, and goes up to heaven and before god.

"Thou did not believe in me."
"I know, but please, give me another chance, I don't want to go to be tortured forever!"
"You did not belive in me. After death, you have no chance of changing your fate (as established in the parable of Lasarus and the rich man) after you die." *He is thrown into hell.*

Is that a loving god?

And why did god create creatures that were destined to go to a place of everlasting torture and pain unless they did something? Isn't that sadistic/cruel?

"It is irrelevant how many sins you have committed. As it says in John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son and whoever believes in him shall never die but have eternal life." So the requirements for entering Heaven is not walking the straight and narrow: It's a belief in Jesus Christ as the son of God."

Indeed. This is not logical. Why does God value *belief* in something more than actions? Using this logic, we can put Hitler, Mao, and Stalin into heaven if they believed in god, while Mother Theresa could be in hell if she became an atheist during her last minute alive.

Or maybe we're all saved and there is no hell.

[quote]I would like to disagree. We all know we only have so much time on this Earth. So, if we choose not to follow Christ in the only life we have, what other option does God have?[/quote]

For one, he could take us all into heaven [supposing there is a hell]? I don't belive a single human AFTER SEEING hell would seriously rather go there.

[quote]God is a loving God. However, he is also a just God. There are several examples of this in scripture. The first is the story of Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve did something they were told they couldn't do. Therefore, they were kicked out of Eden. So this proves that God is a just God. I believe that God is just as human as the rest of us and he gets angry, sad, happy, etc. That's like your mother doesn't love you because she's grounded you a couple of times.[/quote]

Being kicked out of heaven and an everlasting trip to a "lake of fire", filled with sadistic demons wanting to make every second of your eternity a nightmare are hardly comparable.

[quote]Why didn't he tell Adam and Eve that? Because he didn't know if they would eat from the tree of good and evil.[/quote]

The Bible says countless times that God knows our lives, from our first cry to our last breath, thorougly before we are even born. And secondly, if god is almighty, don't you think he could see into the future?

[quote]No, first of all Jesus was only dead for three days. He was resurrected and 40 days later ascended to HEAVEN. A first grade Sunday school class could tell you that...[/quote]

Well, if "the wage for sins" is eternal torture, then either

1) There is no hell
2) As we are writing, Jesus is being tortured in hell. Since number 2 is not possible, we end up with number two.

[quote]That was the OLD testament. The NEW testament (which is the basis of Christianity, and aren't we debating about Christian Hell; not Jewish Hell) makes several references to Heaven and Hell. And I thought you were trying to prove that Hell doesn't exist, well you just contradicted yourself. And I believe that when Christ returns a 2nd time, those who died before his death will be able to ascend to Heaven.[/quote]

I was trying to prove the illogicality of hell. If hell is separation from god, then why does the Bible say "Thou I make my bed in hell, thou art there." And yes, OT is a part of the holy book of Christians. We can't just dismiss the whole OT and only look at NT.

[quote]Christians are people. People don't always get everything right.[/quote]

Okay. During the 4th century, most of the people believed everyone was going to get saved. Now most believe in hell. What happened? A faulty translation? Someone wanted to scare people into being good/becoming christia
Republican95

Con

Thanks for that round!

Your whole story about Lazarus is full of flaws. Read the last sentence again. It says Nor ANYONE cross over there to us. The definition of the word anyone is "Any person at all". Is God a person? No. God is all powerful. Is any person all powerful? No. So therefore God isn't a person. Therefore God, who isn't a person, has the ability to cross between Heaven and Hell. However, he chooses not to.

Opponent: The passage goes on to say that the rich man begged god to send someone to warn his brothers about hell, but god declined. So, god had a chance to save five plus people from eternal flame and torture, but he CHOSE not to. Again, is this a loving god or is there no hell [this passage could've been added as a scare to make people behave or maybe it was a mistake in translation.]?

He didn't send any warning? The whole story of Lazarus and the rich man is a warning about the horrors we'll face in hell if you do not believe in God.

Opponent: He will, as is established in the Revelation of John.

Actually, the destruction of the world is never established in Revelation. The creation of a New Heaven and a New Earth is though.

Opponent: "Okay. If I were your child [or best friend] (as humans are god's children), could you, as a loving father, send me to a place of torture, and pain? If you did that, would you also make me immortal so that I could not simply die, but would have to endure the pain and who knows what for an eternity"

First of all, I believe that God doesn't WANT us to go to Hell. However, I believe that he allows us to. God didn't create Hell (it's never stated in the account of creation recorded in Genesis); however when he disbanded Satan from Heaven, he kicked him into hell. God gets his power from those who believe in him. If no one believed in God, then he would be powerless. We are his tools, his work is reflected in us. That is called the Holy Spirit and it is a widely accepted component of Christianity. So, I believe that God is helpless to help someone who doesn't believe in him. That person's soul belongs to the devil, so therefore it is controlled by Satan.

Opponent: Here is my logical problem with hell. Why does God only allow those who believe in him into heaven, regardless of what they did? Is believing in something a good enough basis to send someone into *everlasting torture*, aka. Hell, aka. lake of fire. Second, why doesn't god just take all people into heaven, regardless of whether or not they believed in him? That would be loving (saving the creatures HE CREATED from everlasting torture.) Let's suppose there a guy dies, is an atheist, and goes up to heaven and before god.

God doesn't expect us to be perfect. But, he does expect us to try. That is why non-believers go to Hell and believers go to Heaven. No one deserves to go to Heaven, we only get there by the Grace of God.

Opponent: And why did god create creatures that were destined to go to a place of everlasting torture and pain unless they did something? Isn't that sadistic/cruel?

So God should create a bunch of robots who have no choice other than to love him? If you're forced to love something or somebody or some God, is it a true love?

Opponent: Indeed. This is not logical. Why does God value *belief* in something more than actions? Using this logic, we can put Hitler, Mao, and Stalin into heaven if they believed in god, while Mother Theresa could be in hell if she became an atheist during her last minute alive.

Yes. God doesn't expect us to be perfect, he expects us to believe. We can't be perfect, God isn't going to hold us to a standard so high that no one on Earth can ever meet it.

Opponent: For one, he could take us all into heaven [supposing there is a hell]? I don't believe a single human AFTER SEEING hell would seriously rather go there.

Part B is true. However, Part A doesn't make any sense. But, he doesn't have any authority over it. We decide for ourselves if we are going to Hell or not.

Opponent:I was trying to prove the illogicality of hell. If hell is separation from god, then why does the Bible say "Thou I make my bed in hell, thou art there." And yes, OT is a part of the holy book of Christians. We can't just dismiss the whole OT and only look at NT.

The only reason the New Testament is included in the Christian Bible is for 2 reasons.
1) For our education.
2) To show the contrast in the world before and after the coming of Christ.

Therefore, to modern day Christians, the Old Testament has no relevance to today because of the coming of Christ.

Opponent: Well, if "the wage for sins" is eternal torture, then either
1) There is no hell
2) As we are writing, Jesus is being tortured in hell. Since number 2 is not possible, we end up with number two.

BUT JESUS WAS DEAD FOR ONLY THREE DAYS!!! He rose from the dead and ascended to HEAVEN. This is described many times in the Bible in Mark 16:19-20, Luke 24:50-53, and Acts 1:9-12.

Opponent: Okay. During the 4th century, most of the people believed everyone was going to get saved. Now most believe in hell. What happened? A faulty translation? Someone wanted to scare people into being good/becoming
christians?

None of the above things happened. They simply discovered the scripture that proved the existence of hell.
Debate Round No. 3
hauki20

Pro

This time I'll try to be as brief as possible, in hope that someone might actually have the patience to read through ;) (I think this might be one of my best debates so far, thank you.)

[quote]Therefore God, who isn't a person, has the ability to cross between Heaven and Hell. However, he chooses not to.
[/quote]

Touche! So, he *could* save millions (maybe even billions) of non-christian souls from eternal torture, but he CHOOSES not to. Is that loving? Having a chance to end someone's torment, but choosing not to?

[quote]I said: "The passage goes on to say that the rich man begged god to send someone to warn his brothers about hell, but god declined. So, god had a chance to save five plus people from eternal flame and torture, but he CHOSE not to."

My opponent said: He didn't send any warning? The whole story of Lazarus and the rich man is a warning about the horrors we'll face in hell if you do not believe in God.[/quote]

Okay, during the time of Jesus there was only the Old Testament, which, by the way, has NO teaching of hell. So basically Jesus just invented the concept, or... Also, here is another problem.

[quote]Actually, the destruction of the world is never established in Revelation. The creation of a New Heaven and a New Earth is though.[/quote]

Well, this is a question of definition. Revelation 21:1. "...For the first earth and heaven had passed away." And for one, this universe will not be around forever.

[quote]God doesn't expect us to be perfect. But, he does expect us to try. That is why non-believers go to Hell and believers go to Heaven. No one deserves to go to Heaven, we only get there by the Grace of God.[/quote]

Okay, first I'm going to comment on this and then I'm going to present a straight question for which I expect a straight answer. Comment: Christians are not better than the rest of mankind. If a Christian tries to be perfect, and an atheist tries to be perfect, why is ONLY the Christian allowed into Heaven?

The question (and this is a "what if"-type of question.) I expect a clear and straight answer.: Person 1 is Hitler. Person 2 is Mother Theresa. On the very last second of his life, Hitler became a Christian. On the very last second of her life, Mother Theresa became a Hindu. According to the Bible, Hitler is allowed into Heaven and Mother Theresa will be sent to the everlasting flames of hell. How is this logical?

Rhetorical question: Why does god only allow those who believed in him to heaven? Why doesn't he value our actions more? Or why couldn't he take us all into heaven?

[quote]First of all, I believe that God doesn't WANT us to go to Hell. However, I believe that he allows us to. God didn't create Hell (it's never stated in the account of creation recorded in Genesis); however when he disbanded Satan from Heaven, he kicked him into hell. God gets his power from those who believe in him. If no one believed in God, then he would be powerless. We are his tools, his work is reflected in us. That is called the Holy Spirit and it is a widely accepted component of Christianity. So, I believe that God is helpless to help someone who doesn't believe in him. That person's soul belongs to the devil, so therefore it is controlled by Satan.[/quote]

You completely dodged my question. Although you made a point (which I'll get to), I would like an answer for this question.

Answer this question. Think it has nothing to do with hell. Think It has nothing to do with anything. One word will be enough (yes or no.)

Okay. If I were your child [or best friend] (as humans are god's children), could you, as a loving father, send me to a place of torture, and pain? If you did that, would you also make me immortal so that I could not simply die, but would have to endure the pain and who knows what for an eternity?

(Just so that you know, the above question is a checkmate to anyone who believes in hell.)

And now to your point. Let's go one thing at a time.

"First of all, I believe that God doesn't WANT us to go to Hell. However, I believe that he allows us to."

"God didn't create Hell (it's never stated in the account of creation recorded in Genesis);" To be exact, there is no mention of hell in the OT.

"...however when he disbanded Satan from Heaven, he kicked him into hell."

...So why do humans have to go there? Couldn't God have made a little less... painful... place for non-Christians? Like A prison?

"God gets his power from those who believe in him. If no one believed in God, then he would be powerless."

Are you saying that God is dependant of his creations? This poses several problems, of which I'd like to mention one. How could god have created the universe when there were no humans around?

"We are his tools, his work is reflected in us. That is called the Holy Spirit and it is a widely accepted component of Christianity.

"So, I believe that God is helpless to help someone who doesn't believe in him."

Therefore you're saying that God is NOT almighty. Notice the word "HELPLESS".

"That person's soul belongs to the devil, so therefore it is controlled by Satan."

Since God is almighty, he could just basically say, "Hey! Give those souls to me!" After all, Satan is his creation. Don't you think God has more power over his creation than his creation over him?

And now the rest.

[quote]So God should create a bunch of robots who have no choice other than to love him? If you're forced to love something or somebody or some God, is it a true love?[/quote]

I agree 110%. However, it is said that you don't need to love God in order to gain salvation, you need to believe in him.

[quote]The only reason the New Testament is included in the Christian Bible is for 2 reasons.
1) For our education.
2) To show the contrast in the world before and after the coming of Christ.[/quote]

"The only reason that the NEW Testament is..." I understand. We all make mistakes. Errare humanum est ;)

And now to the point you were making.

Maybe, just maybe there are other reasons for the OT being in the Bible. For one, Jesus said: "Truly I twll you, Until heaven and earth pass away, not even one yoth [Hebrew for: smallest letter] or a dash shall pass away from the law [old Testament] until it is all fulfilled."

Second of all, the God it's the same God speaking in OT and NT.

[quote]Yes. God doesn't expect us to be perfect, he expects us to believe. We can't be perfect, God isn't going to hold us to a standard so high that no one on Earth can ever meet it.[/quote]

Question: What is so good about believing in God that it entitles for salvation? Why couldn't he just take all of us to heaven?

[quote]Part B is true. However, Part A doesn't make any sense. But, he doesn't have any authority over it. We decide for ourselves if we are going to Hell or not.[/quote]

So, if in heaven an atheist (while he was alive) says, "Hey, God, listen. I know I've been an atheist, but now that I'm finally able to see for myself you, hell and heaven, I believe in you! I'm a Christian now! Don't send me into hell!" he will still be sent to hell? Interesting. [FYO, the Bible says that after a man dies, he cannot change his fate.]

[quote]BUT JESUS WAS DEAD FOR ONLY THREE DAYS!!! He rose from the dead and ascended to HEAVEN. This is described many times in the Bible in Mark 16:19-20, Luke 24:50-53, and Acts 1:9-12.[/quote]

Okay. Let me make this clear. The Bible says many times that if you sin, you go to Hell for eternity [and since Jesus took all the sins of the world on him, he should be in Hell forever.]. However, in the Gospels etc etc it is said that he arose after three days! This is a contradiction. That's what I was trying to say. So, how do you explain the contradiction?

[quote]None of the above things happened. They simply discovered the scripture that proved the existence of hell.[/quote]

In the 4th century the NT was translated into Latin. A coincidence?
Republican95

Con

Opponent: "Okay, during the time of Jesus there was only the Old Testament, which, by the way, has NO teaching of hell. So basically Jesus just invented the concept, or... Also, here is another problem."

So Jesus lied. But Jesus was perfect, he never sinned. Lying is a sin, so how could Jesus lie?

Opponent: Okay, first I'm going to comment on this and then I'm going to present a straight question for which I expect a straight answer. Comment: Christians are not better than the rest of mankind. If a Christian tries to be perfect, and an atheist tries to be perfect, why is ONLY the Christian allowed into Heaven?

Because the word perfect is used in a spiritual sense. It is impossible for an atheist to be perfect when compared to a Christian. Because believing is the requirement for entering, and atheists don't believe.

Opponent: Person 1 is Hitler. Person 2 is Mother Theresa. On the very last second of his life, Hitler became a Christian. On the very last second of her life, Mother Theresa became a Hindu. According to the Bible, Hitler is allowed into Heaven and Mother Theresa will be sent to the everlasting flames of hell. How is this logical?

God doesn't need logic. Nothing about Christianity has to be "logical". Logic is a philosophical element invented by men. The Bible is based on faith and belief, therefore it doesn't need logic to back it up. And one of the aspects of belief in repentance, so not only would Hitler have to believe he would have to repent and be baptized.

Opponent: Or why couldn't he take us all into heaven?

He can't help somebody who doesn't believe in him.

Opponent: Okay. If I were your child [or best friend] (as humans are god's children), could you, as a loving father, send me to a place of torture, and pain? If you did that, would you also make me immortal so that I could not simply die, but would have to endure the pain and who knows what for an eternity?

No. But, I can't answer for God.

Opponent: Are you saying that God is dependent of his creations? This poses several problems, of which I'd like to mention one. How could god have created the universe when there were no humans around?

God created much simpler beings than we are today. Think about it, when God created Adam and Eve, they we're truly his "children". We had no concept of right and wrong, we were naive, ignorant, etc. However, we ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil we become exposed to the idea of right and wrong. We became much more complex, and much more powerful.

Opponent: Since God is almighty, he could just basically say, "Hey! Give those souls to me!" After all, Satan is his creation. Don't you think God has more power over his creation than his creation over him?

Actually, Satan wasn't created by God (it's never stated in the account of creation). And plus, evil is the absence of God, so how could God save the evil?

Opponent: "I agree 110%. However, it is said that you don't need to love God in order to gain salvation, you need to believe in him."

You need to believe, repent, and be baptized, and most of that requires a love for God.

Opponent: What is so good about believing in God that it entitles for salvation? Why couldn't he just take all of us to heaven?

Because belief and love come hand in hand. And the whole reason why God created man, in my opinion, was to be loved. We must give a little love to get some.

Opponent: So, if in heaven an atheist (while he was alive) says, "Hey, God, listen. I know I've been an atheist, but now that I'm finally able to see for myself you, hell and heaven, I believe in you! I'm a Christian now! Don't send me into hell!" he will still be sent to hell? Interesting. [FYI, the Bible says that after a man dies, he cannot change his fate.]

Because a blind faith is a more loving thing than a faith backed by facts.

Opponent: Okay. Let me make this clear. The Bible says many times that if you sin, you go to Hell for eternity [and since Jesus took all the sins of the world on him, he should be in Hell forever.]. However, in the Gospels etc etc it is said that he arose after three days! This is a contradiction. That's what I was trying to say. So, how do you explain the contradiction?

God bought him back. And since Jesus was God in the flesh, God had control over him. And bought him back.

Opponent: In the 4th century the NT was translated into Latin. A coincidence?

Using this strategy you could nullify everything in the Bible. Who is to say the passage that God is a loving God is not a mistranslation?

Closing remarks: Without a heaven and hell, the whole purpose of religion is lost. If everyone went to the same place no matter what, there would be no encouragement to love him. Trust in the Bible, the Bible says: Hell is real. Don't rely on this idea that some parts are mistranslated, if we use that mentality the whole bible becomes useless. Think about it. Believe in him. Love him. Amen.
Debate Round No. 4
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by ournamestoolong 5 years ago
ournamestoolong
This is why the Bible can't be taken literally. -->

The creation of Hell would be immoral, so God didn't create it.
Posted by Lexicaholic 5 years ago
Lexicaholic
Tie. Just a side note: if God, who made all of creation, did not create Hell, who did? Additionally, claiming that God is all loving and all just is not an excuse for him to act less loving when he must be just. If he is the complete expression of those concepts, he must be capable of balancing both perfectly or he is not perfectly both. Okay, rant over. Evenly matched, good debate, etc.
Posted by Clockwork 5 years ago
Clockwork
"I take it you believe in Evolution? What hard core evidence do you have that evolution occurred? Did you witness it? I don't think so..."

Actually, we have witnessed evolution in fruit flies and sheep to the point where they could no longer reproduce with one another.

As for you, seen anyone raised from the dead lately? Symbiotic logic fails.
Posted by Rob1Billion 5 years ago
Rob1Billion
Republican, you obviously subscribe to this BS:
Posted by Maikuru 5 years ago
Maikuru
This is one of the most entertaining collection of comments I've seen in a while. Keep up the good work, everyone.
Posted by Republican95 5 years ago
Republican95
Dear Rob,

If we're so stupid then why are you wasting your time on something you don't even believe in.

Have a Nice Time in Hell,
Republican95
Posted by Rob1Billion 5 years ago
Rob1Billion
if we're so stupid then why would you believe a book of fiction written by a bunch of stupid people just to try and gain power...
Posted by Republican95 5 years ago
Republican95
I take it you believe in Evolution? What hard core evidence do you have that evolution occurred? Did you witness it? I don't think so...

And humans can't prove things...we're stupid.
Posted by Republican95 5 years ago
Republican95
Dear Zach 12,

Those things you mentioned (Euthanasia, stem cell research) are never mentioned in the Bible directly. Therefore, it is safe to say that the Bible had nothing to do with the laws we have in our country today. Instead, these laws come from certain moral standards and a respect for life; not the Bible.

I hope you do realize that the life your living now is full of hate and the only truly way to be happy is to find Jesus Christ...
Posted by zach12 5 years ago
zach12
and if your whole philosophy is that humans can't prove anything, you're on the wrong site.
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Vote Placed by Davewerty 4 years ago
Davewerty
hauki20Republican95Tied
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PieofLife
hauki20Republican95Tied
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Lexicaholic
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