The Instigator
RandomTruth
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Orionfletcher
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

There is no evidence to believe that Jesus Christ never existed

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/8/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 599 times Debate No: 68003
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (10)
Votes (0)

 

RandomTruth

Pro

Preamble
There is no reason to believe that the Jesus Christ of the Bible, virgin-born, miracle-worker, itinerant preacher and political & religious agitator, killed and resurrected and became a deity every existed.

Evidence 1: No Historical Record
The strongest evidence is that there is no actual indepedent corroborating evidence that such a man ever existed nor of his miraculous deeds. For a man of such great acts, some affecting thousands (e.g. the feeding of the 5,000, the rising of the dead) it is surprising that no record would remain of such deeds - none first-hand and certainly none second hand, especially considering there are many detailed records that exist of that time.

For the purposes of this debate, references to a 'historical Jesus' are invalid. Firstly, because we are discusing the existence of the religious figure and secondly because the term makes no sense.

Evidence 2: Jesus Christ is a religious invention
The only actual references we have are those found in the Bible, in particular the four Gospels. This Jesus Christ is a deity that performed miracles on this planet, a sort of avatar of the actual God - wholly God but also wholly human in that he was limited in his powers. His mission was to not only resolve the Jewish religion as a returning Messiah but also as a message to the rest of humanity that should they follow his Path, they too would have access to the Jewish deity on their death.

All this is, of course religious invention, with no bearing or evidence other than what a group of people, who call themselves Christians, choose to accept on faith is true. The Bible is replete with references to Jesus being a deity and having great powers - supernatural claims common for their time and largely unseen since: without evidence these events happened, one must conclude these are wholly religious inventions to impress believers.

Evidence 3: Jesus Christ only exists for Christians
Being a religious invention then, jesus Christ has to compete in the market-place of religious ideas and here his existence (and all the contingent claims that make Jesus, the Christ) is also disputed.

Beginning with Judaism, the original religious Jesus is the Messiah of, it's progenitor, there is enormous dispute as to whether he truly was that Messiah. Therefore, by definition Jesus Christ - the Messiash - does not exist according to Judaism. He was a fraud.

Then we have the cousin religion, Islam, who only accepts Jesus as a prophet and not the deity that claimed by Christians.

Within Christianity, the thousands of different denominations and cults should put at rest that there is any single definitive way to even worship - thus proving that religious claims are not even internally self-supporting and therefore unreliable historical documents to begin with.

Conclusion

With no historical record, where there should have been, it is impossible to conclude that Jesus Christ existed other than in the minds of Christians.

Orionfletcher

Con

There is an overwhelming amount of indications that Jesus was a real man. Jesus was merely a teacher whose beliefs and ideals proceeded to affect the world dramatically.

The existence of Jesus has been critically proved. It"s not a question of rather he was the "messiah" or expressed grandiose ambitions of being the son of the mighty creator, it"s an influence of his presence, and the written verification of this man. It is not only Christians who recognize Jesus to be a real man; Jews even though they do not claim Jesus as their messiah, still recognize him to be the real man he was.

Secondly, there have been other prophets or rather exhibitors of ideals who existence is as real as Jesus Christ. The prophet Muhammad, a man who laid claim to have spoken to the real creator; brought the middle east from bands of tribes to a group of people led by the caliphate created after the death of Muhammad. Even scholars such as Confucius, who spread ideals that became known as Confucianism became no more unreal than he truly was.

No matter if you"re Christian man or an inquisitive scholar, one cannot deny the existence of Jesus Christ. With all modern technology and critical analysis done on this matter most modern scholars confirm that Jesus existed.
Debate Round No. 1
RandomTruth

Pro

It appears that you are talking about a human being without the mythical characteristics of the Jesus Christ that I laid out in the preamble. So you agree then - the character in the Bible called Jesus Christ does not exist?
Orionfletcher

Con

The statement which we are reviewing is asking if Jesus christ ever existed not that he was a the man the bible states him to be. That was merely your choice of argument in which to justify your statement. Jesus Christ was a real man and evidence has proved this. Rather a divine diety or mortal man he was real none the less as the question inquires. You state him to not be the deity Christians claim him as. however it's a matter of his existence to which we are arguing not anyone mans ability.
Debate Round No. 2
RandomTruth

Pro

The Christ in "Jesus Christ" means Messiah. There is no other. If you are taking about the existence of another itinerant preacher then that person is not under discussion.

Only the Jesus Christ of the Bible, the Messiah, miracle worker, deity is being discussed. There is no evidence for that character or person existing.
Orionfletcher

Con

Orionfletcher forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
RandomTruth

Pro

I see my opponent has conceded. How do I speed up the end of the debate?
Orionfletcher

Con

As stated before, whether Jesus was pictured as a man with mystical powers is not specifically the question of the debate. Your argument has been revolved around this however this is not what the question is asking. I am no follower of religion, however men with much more means to find truth in such things have done so. rather depicted the man he was seen as in the bible, their are many other forms of documentation referencing to Jesus Christ. For instance the Jews (as previously stated) evaluated him to be a real man however not their Messiah. The Enlightened one from the stories of Buddha was in fact a real man. BY others claiming him to be the "enlightened one" does not take away from the fact that he existed, same for Muhammad of the Koran, and the philosopher Confucius. The fact that a man is claimed to be a title does not change the fact of his existence. If you were to actually research this topic throughly with suitable sites and written text you would see the truth of the facts.
Debate Round No. 4
RandomTruth

Pro

RandomTruth forfeited this round.
Orionfletcher

Con

This would show that my contender has no more to say against my validations, and fails to counteract my points. Thank you for your time.
Debate Round No. 5
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by RandomTruth 2 years ago
RandomTruth
@vi_spex: True but this debate is to put that question to rest and to reject all such claims.
Posted by vi_spex 2 years ago
vi_spex
there is no reason to disprove what hasnt been proved
Posted by RobertSine 2 years ago
RobertSine
What's your take on Mara bar Serapion?
Posted by RandomTruth 2 years ago
RandomTruth
@1K: No.
Posted by dtaylor971 2 years ago
dtaylor971
You're missing the point... the BoP is on theists to prove that he did exist, as they are the ones making the positive claim...
Posted by 1Kingdom 2 years ago
1Kingdom
@RandomTruth - Thank you for your response, I would like to take this time to demonstrate. Do you have any pain or sickness in your body?
Posted by RandomTruth 2 years ago
RandomTruth
@1Kingdom - OK - and?
Posted by 1Kingdom 2 years ago
1Kingdom
I can prove the existence of Jesus Christ
Posted by RandomTruth 2 years ago
RandomTruth
@TrueScotsman: Apologies for the format - I don't know how to do that but I can do another version of it in keeping with your parameters. Or you can create it and take the other side and invite me.
Posted by TrueScotsman 2 years ago
TrueScotsman
I would accept this debate, but I don't have time for 5 rounds and the instigator did not even layout the format for the debate.
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