The Instigator
yoyopizza
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points
The Contender
Kumquatodor
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

There is no logical reason to pray

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
yoyopizza
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/1/2013 Category: Science
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 712 times Debate No: 36258
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
Votes (2)

 

yoyopizza

Pro

I will of course be arguing that there is no reason to pray, this is assuming that there is a god, of course. I do not believe in a god, but for this let's assume that there is one. First round will be acceptance only ( I don't want to reveal my amazing arguments. Muahahaha!) I'm kidding, but seriously first round acceptance, looking forward to your response!
Kumquatodor

Con

I accept.
Debate Round No. 1
yoyopizza

Pro

Okay, were first assuming that there is a god. God will of course, do what he see's is right, his will. If it is his will something will be done about, for instance, a sick person, then something will happen. If it is not his will that the person be healed, then they won't be, there is no reason to pray and ask for the person to be healed. It's as simple as that.
Kumquatodor

Con

My opponent is not the first one to think up this argument. Indeed, George Carlin made the same argument (while he argued that we should all worship the sun and pray to an actor).

Just pointing out an interesting fact.
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Okay, were first assuming that there is a god.
I do that often!

God will of course, do what he see's is right, his will.
One would assume so.

If it is his will something will be done about, for instance, a sick person, then something will happen. If it is not his will that the person be healed, then they won't be, there is no reason to pray and ask for the person to be healed. It's as simple as that.
Your argument is flawed, and I will show you why.

What is God's will?

In all His book, he seems awfully occupied with having followers (before Twitter!). He even sends people to get other people to worship him!

Therefore, we can reasonably assume it is in God's will for people to choose to worship Him.
Satan/sin seems to stop people from woshiping God. Therefore, God must want to abolish sin.


So, Gods plan is the following:

1. Make man.
2. Let man choose to worship.
3. Send more men to tell other men to worship me (or my son, depending on the version).
4. Destroy man if he does not worship
5. Destroy source of man's lack of want to worship.
6. Take remaining people to heaven.
7. They worship me.



Where does Rebecca Nechlikov's amputation fall into this? It doesn't. God's divine plan is not affected by Jerik Eprisons heart attack.


So, the likelyhood of your 13-year-old daughter being kidnapped at the bus stop (and subsequently raped, and being forced to recieve countless abortions over 10 years while the MORONS, excuse me, I mean people, ignore the screaming) is not set in stone.
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In his book, which I'll finish reading one day, God proclaims himself to be benevolent, and he claims to answer prayers (though he doesn't say he'll say yes).

Therefore, you may assume that God might save your pancreas from removal.
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Also written in His book, he states that prayer is not only a cosmic-amazon.com, but that it also is a means for communicating and, you guessed it, worshiping God.
Debate Round No. 2
yoyopizza

Pro

The first part of my opponents argument is the logical fallacy ad hominem and is to be ignored.

___________________________________

When you say that god's plan is not effected by a heart attack, I hope that you don't mean it doesn't effect his plan. Since anything that happens is already planned by god (Psalm 139:16).

I have no idea what you are getting at here, other than the logical fallacy argumentum ad passiones, or appeal to emotion. Also, if the bible is to be believed, then it is set in stone. Again, Psalms 139:16, Jeremiah 1:5, etc.

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You really should finish the bible, when read with full understanding, the bible is useless, indeed, and the best tool to make one an atheist. Also, on the topic of gods benevolence, I'll quote Epicurus, "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" " Epicurus

No, because as I have stated already, he will heal you if he sees it to be good. If it is not good (how that's possible, I do not know), then you will not be healed.
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Not that I don't believe you here, gods book certainly makes it clear he lover worship, but would you mind siting where it asks that to be done through prayer? Assuming you do find it, I will argue against it now since this is my last round.

Now god wants you to pray for the purpose of worshiping him, I think I've made it clear that it can't affect your life, but is it what god wants you to do anyways? Well, let me ask you this, does it really matter? Your life is planned out. Heaven. Hell. Decided already. God knows right now where your going, it doesn't matter if you kneel and pray right now. If it's part of his great plan, you're going to be burning in eternal hellfire.

Thanks for the debate, should have made it longer but this will have to do! :)
Kumquatodor

Con

Kumquatodor forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by yoyopizza 3 years ago
yoyopizza
Ramen
Posted by Sagey 3 years ago
Sagey
There are those that claim that God did answer their prayers.
Such as winning a lottery draw.
Footballer prays and kicks a winning goal.
Stupid woman claiming God saved her in the Hudson River Ditching when it was really the great skill of the pilot that saved her, God threw the birds into the engines which caused the incident.
So many deluded people wrongly believing a God did it, when it was either human skill or luck.
Like my Catholic friend who won a second division lottery draw and then told me that it was from God as she prayed the night before the draw. Yet she completely forgot about the fact that she prays the night before every draw, because she once complained to me how God continually lets her down.
But, this time she gained a reasonable prize and it was because she prayed to God.
She was convinced of this. She's been taking weekly draw, lotto tickets for 15 years or roughly 780 draws that she prays to win at and only scored one reasonable prize. Hardly evidence that it was from God.
It's funny how Theists are so Irrational and have selective memories for such events.
All "God Did It" tales are delusional and false.
If they were truth.
Then God cares more for a footballer's ego in kicking a winning goal, than saving a starving child in Kenya.
Posted by Sagey 3 years ago
Sagey
It is evident that Prayers are not answered by the lack of evidence for any such answers.
Millions, possibly billions of Christians around the world pray for those starving children in Africa and Asia, yet, there is still no end in sight for their starvation, which kills around 15 million children a year.
If their God was merciful (Benevolent) and answered their prayers, there would be some sort of resolution in sight, but alas. NO!
Such absence of evidence can possibly mean that either God is Malevolent and does not care for starving Innocents or there never was any God to begin with.
The latter case is far more likely to be the Truth.
Billions of prayers from Billions of believers, nothing anywhere to show as any evidence of an answer, except more innocent, painful deaths.
BEST ANSWER FOR THIS SCENARIO: THERE IS NO GOD!!! :-D~
Posted by yoyopizza 3 years ago
yoyopizza
I can see that, the psychological benefits. Obviously I was talking about whether on not prayers would be answered but that's a good point, I wonder if anyone's done any studies on it.
Posted by Sagey 3 years ago
Sagey
As far as I can see.
There appears to be no logical reason to pray, regardless of whether a God exists or not.

God either appears to be deaf, maybe it doesn't have ears.
Or the deists are right and it killed itself from the Big Bang, major Ouch for God. LOL
Or Atheism is right.

Either way, prayers appear to do absolutely nothing except provide a sense of calm for the person praying, which they probably gain more from in doing meditation instead.
Yes, those praying often feel as if they are doing something for somebody else, when factually they are only calming themselves and doing absolutely nothing for others.

Okay, it has psychological benefits, but, meditation is far better at doing the same.
Posted by Kumquatodor 3 years ago
Kumquatodor
I meant not to imply anything of the sort.
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Rebuttal

On ad hominem:
I didn't mean to insult you; I'm sorry.

By the way, you should seriously read that Carlin routine. It was a hilarious satire on religion.
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On Psalms 139:16, it in no way states that God actively chooses how events occur. It only says he knows how they will.

On Jeremiah 1:5, God is talking directly to Jeremiah. His plan is not effected by if my grandma dies or not.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
About the alleged "Appealing to Emotion Fallacy":

I was satiring peoples' ignoring of horrible events.
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About benevolence: even if God isn't, wouldn't prayer be worth a try?

Also, we may be unable to understand God's motive. Assuming God is real, then we aren't able to.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
About worship through prayer: In the Lord's Prayer, there is obvious worship.

"Hallowed be thy name" and "Glory to God." are two examples.

Seeing as the Lord's Prayer is a template of prayer, it is safe to assume that worship is supposed to be a normal part of prayer.
_________________________
I have shown that there is at least 1 purpose of prayer: worship. I believe that there is one reason to pray, so I think I have one.
_______________________________________________________________________
I thank my opponent for such a stimulating debate.
Posted by yoyopizza 3 years ago
yoyopizza
I didn't do anything if you're suggesting that I did. You can post a rebuttal in the comments if you'd like, but hurry before voting starts.
Posted by Kumquatodor 3 years ago
Kumquatodor
I still had time! I checked! I was typing my rebuttal literally one minute ago!

I'm sorry for the forfeit, but I am skeptical that this wasn't a bug.

If I'm wrong, (which I might be) then I am sorry.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by MrJosh 3 years ago
MrJosh
yoyopizzaKumquatodorTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Arguments for the arguments. I was going to give PRO conduct for the forfeit, but he accepted CON's final round in the comments.
Vote Placed by imabench 3 years ago
imabench
yoyopizzaKumquatodorTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: cons logic was pretty faulty from the get-go and the last round forfeit only left pro's counters to cons arguments go unrefuted. Argument points therefore go to the pro