The Instigator
Akhenaten
Pro (for)
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0 Points
The Contender
grandma-complex
Con (against)
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0 Points

There is no such thing as herd immunity

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/16/2017 Category: Science
Updated: 8 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 455 times Debate No: 102616
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
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Akhenaten

Pro

The concept of herd immunity is a fraud. It is totally illogical and has never been proven to exist. The idea of herd immunity comes from the pharmaceutical industry which needs to sell lots of drugs to the the public. They do this by instiling fear and distrust in the community with concepts like 'herd immunity'.
grandma-complex

Con

Hello again Akhenaten! My apologies for not responding sooner, for some reason DDO didn't see fit to notify me of your challenge until today. Without further ado, my argument begins with a few definitions:

Herd immunity: the principle that if a large enough portion of the population is immune to a disease, the rest of the population is protected from the spread of that disease

R0: Basic reproduction number. Or, the amount of people an already infected person will therefore infect

Immunity threshold: The critical portion of a population required for the protection of herd immunity. Typically, the higher the R0, the higher the immune threshold has to be in order to provide protection.

Herd immunity is a principle held by modern medicine. Essentially, it is the idea that if a critical portion of a population is immunized against a disease, this protects the rest of the "herd." It is not foolproof, but it does serve to break the chain of infection.

I'll bring in my example from the previous debate so the facts stay fresh. Measle's immunity threshold is at least 95%. The R0 of measles is incredibly high, residing around 12-18 people. High R0=High immunity threshold in order to prevent outbreaks. The recent antivax has resulted in outbreaks in America, as the immunity threshold has dropped.

I'd like to ask Pro: what makes herd immunity illogical?

[1] http://www.pbs.org...
Debate Round No. 1
Akhenaten

Pro

Con -"what makes herd immunity illogical?"

Pro - Herd immunity is illogical because people who are immunised are still carriers of all diseases. It has been proven that any given individual has all known diseases within their bodies at any given time. This is because there is really only one 'disease condition' which is called 'vitamin deficiency'. When a person fails to eat the right foods a medical condition will result eventually. The type of medical condition depends on the type of vitamin deficiency.



https://wwwnc.cdc.gov...


Copy from previous debate -unfinished reponses -

The Deadly Impossibility Of Herd Immunity Through Vaccination, by Dr. Russell Blaylock



Is Herd Immunity Real?

In the original description of herd immunity, the protection to the population at large occurred only if people contracted the infections naturally. The reason for this is that naturally-acquired immunity lasts for a lifetime. The vaccine proponents quickly latched onto this concept and applied it to vaccine-induced immunity. But, there was one major problem – vaccine-induced immunity lasted for only a relatively short period, from 2 to 10 years at most, and then this applies only to humoral immunity. This is why they began, silently, to suggest boosters for most vaccines, even the common childhood infections such as chickenpox, measles, mumps, and rubella.

Then they discovered an even greater problem, the boosters were lasting for only 2 years or less. This is why we are now seeing mandates that youth entering colleges have multiple vaccines, even those which they insisted gave lifelong immunity, such as the MMR. The same is being suggested for full-grown adults. Ironically, no one in the media or medical field is asking what is going on. They just accept that it must be done.

That vaccine-induced herd immunity is mostly myth can be proven quite simply. When I was in medical school, we were taught that all of the childhood vaccines lasted a lifetime. This thinking existed for over 70 years. It was not until relatively recently that it was discovered that most of these vaccines lost their effectiveness 2 to 10 years after being given. What this means is that at least half the population, that is the baby boomers, have had no vaccine-induced immunity against any of these diseases for which they had been vaccinated very early in life. In essence, at least 50% or more of the population was unprotected for decades.

If we listen to present-day wisdom, we are all at risk of resurgent massive epidemics should the vaccination rate fall below 95%. Yet, we have all lived for at least 30 to 40 years with 50% or less of the population having vaccine protection. That is, herd immunity has not existed in this country for many decades and no resurgent epidemics have occurred. Vaccine-induced herd immunity is a lie used to frighten doctors, public-health officials, other medical personnel, and the public into accepting vaccinations.

When we examine the scientific literature, we find that for many of the vaccines protective immunity was 30 to 40%, meaning that 70% to 60% of the public has been without vaccine protection. Again, this would mean that with a 30% to 40% vaccine-effectiveness rate combined with the fact that most people lost their immune protection within 2 to 10 year of being vaccinated, most of us were without the magical 95% number needed for herd immunity. This is why vaccine defenders insist the vaccines have 95% effectiveness rates.

Without the mantra of herd immunity, these public-health officials would not be able to justify forced mass vaccinations. I usually give the physicians who question my statement that herd immunity is a myth a simple example. When I was a medical student almost 40 years ago, it was taught that the tetanus vaccine would last a lifetime. Then 30 years after it had been mandated, we discovered that its protection lasted no more than 10 years. Then, I ask my doubting physician if he or she has ever seen a case of tetanus? Most have not. I then tell them to look at the yearly data on tetanus infections – one sees no rise in tetanus cases. The same can be said for measles, mumps, and other childhood infections. It was, and still is, all a myth.




https://www.westonaprice.org...

grandma-complex

Con

1- Pro states that people have all known diseases within their bodies at any given time. Is this also true of people who take multivitamins every day and eat a balanced diet? And why is it that people who take multivitamins and eat a balanced diet get sick?

Furthermore, vitamin deficiency does not cause all disease. Vitamins are enzymes that speed along processess in the body, and while deficiencies can cause problems, they do not cause all disease.

2- Pro linked to a cdc source stating that children vaccinated against pertussis can be carriers for disease. I acknowledge this as a reputable source, but since Pro has previously stated in previous debates (and a sentence ago), disease is caused only by vitamin deficiency. So why would vaccinated children be a problem in the first place?

3- The next source from Dr. Blaylock has a (more than) a few problems.

"Applies only to humoral immunity" This is how the adaptive immune system works. He makes it sound as if it is exclusionary.

"Only 2-10 years" That is more than good enough for most people. Anyone would take getting stuck with a needle over getting pertussis as I did as a toddler.

"College" I only had to get one shot: bacteria meningitis.

"When I was in medical school..." Dr. Baylock was licensed to begin practicing neurosurgery in 1977 after both a residency and medical school. This was almost 50 years ago.. medical science, of course, has changed. Thinking has changed.

And so on and so forth. Snopes and the Skeptic's Dictionary have both shown that Dr. Baylock's ideas have been disproven. [1] [2]

4- One last point. If vaccines don't work and herd immunity is a myth, why is it that the resurgence of the anti-vax movement and recept mumps and measles outbreaks occurred at the same time?

[1] http://www.snopes.com...
[2] http://skepdic.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Akhenaten

Pro

1. "why is it that people who take multivitamins and eat a balanced diet get sick?"


Pro - Most people don't fully understand what a proper or balanced diet is. This includes medical professionals and dieticians. They still use the the old redundant food triangle with grain/dairy food taking up a huge 50 % of average diet. See chart below. 50% of these foods will make you sick. That's the grain, dairy, sugar and margarine. Follow this chart and disease will soon occur. Trust the government? Sure can! lol


https://en.wikipedia.org...

2. "Vitamin deficiency does not cause all disease."

Pro - You didn't name one that dosen't? Just give me your list of diseases that are not caused by dietary factors and I will demonstrate what vitamin deficiency is causing the problem.


"So why would vaccinated children be a problem in the first place?"

Pro - You are the one who has stated that "vaccination makes a difference". I am only proving that it doesn't make any difference. Note - As far as I am concerned there are no carriers of disease. Note - There is no such thing as a contagious disease (This will be my next debate on this issue)

3. "vaccines last for 2-10 years"

Pro - Whenever you hear somebody say that the effect of something will wear off in 2-10 years you can be sure they are taliking bullcrap. This time differential is just too much of a difference to be real or useful. If you buy a TV and the salesman tells you it will last between 2 - 10 years would you buy that TV? Noooooo wayyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!! This guy is obviously a con-artist. You run for the hills and save your money. lol
So why do people believe medical professionals when they say these things? Is it because they are wearing a white coats and everybody knows that people in white coats don't tell lies, right? lol


Con - "This was almost 50 years ago.. medical science, of course, has changed. Thinking has changed."

Pro - Well, you believe everything Luis Pastreur said and that was around 1850's. So that that makes you a hypocrite. That's right science has changed, so why do you still believe in 200 year old theories? What about new research into hormones, leaky gut syndrome and nutrition?

4. "One last point. If vaccines don't work and herd immunity is a myth, why is it that the resurgence of the anti-vax movement and recept mumps and measles outbreaks occurred at the same time?"

Pro - If you are referring to the recent outbreak of measles in Disneyland, then, this is further proof that I am right. This is because Disneyland is a junk food lover's heaven. If eating amusement park food doesn't make you sick, then nothing else will either! lol
grandma-complex

Con

1- Pro's source is from 1943-1956. I'm not sure if he's trying to demonstrate that this line of thinking is outdated (which it is, it's about 60 years old), or that this thinking is current. It's not.

Right now the current guidelines are called MyPlate [1]. which consist of 30% grains, 20% protein, 40% vegetables and 10% fruits with a little circle on the side to represent a cup of dairy. This looks relatively balanced to me. What do you think, Pro? What's a balanced diet?

2- Alright. Let's start with genetic diseases: Angelman, cri du chat, Klinefelter's, hemophilia, sickle-cell? Autoimmune diseases: diabetes type one, lupus, MS? Viral infections: flu, ebola, HPV, HIV, colds? Bacterial infections:staph, clostridium difficle (eugh), plague, tetanus? Protozoan infections: malaria, African sleeping sickness, giardia? Helminth infections: tapeworms, roundworms, flukes? Environmentally acquired diseases: sun stroke, hypothermia, exposure?

Additionally, if we are indeed bringing things over from our previous debate, Pro doesn't believe that medical sources are credible at all. All doctors, naturopath or medical, are quacks and therefore not to be trusted. This makes the data false by his use in the first place.

However, in response to the CDC source is this: Again, it is not that vaccines don't work. Vaccines work by significantly reducing the time that a person is infected, or by preventing the disease entirely. This reduces the time one sheds viral particles as well. Unfortuantely viruses and bacteria are clever in the way they are transmitted, and vaccines are not the ultimate shield.

3- I'll be honest. Statistics was my favorite subject in high school, so I'm glad it was brought up now.

Brief statistics lesson:

Confidence interval: Range of values that will probably contain the value of an unknown population parameter (in this case, how long a vaccine booster lasts)
Confidence level: The probability that the value will be in the given range

So, when a medical provider is trying to generalize literally eveyone, the confidence level has to be pretty high. Like, 99.999% high, so the given confidence interval has to be pretty wide as well. Since all humans are completely different from one another, different genetics, different experience, different environment, that means their immune system would respond drastically differently. 2-10 years seems believable to me, though I'd hate to be the poor soul whose vaccine is completely effective for two years. I suspect the lower half of the bracket is used when building up an immunity, such as when getting the three rounds of Hepatits B. Though the absolute shortest interval I can find is only 4 years [2].

4- Everything Pasteur said? I'm not on record agreeing with everything he said, as I haven't read everything he has said. But I am on record saying I agree with science that has been proven over and over again to be correct. I could run the same swan-neck experiment that disproved spontaneous generation right now if I wanted to. Please notify me when this is no longer correct.

In reference to hormone, leaky gut syndrome and nutrition.. research done by scientists and doctors Pro doesn't believe in?

5- Actually no, I'm referring to the several cases of mumps that showed up on my own campus several months ago. A college campus where most kids are frankly too poor to eat junk.

I wish only eating junk food made you sick. I was in Disney World a few years ago and ate all kinds of ridiculous junk; my immune system didn't even bat an eyelash. But I can remember vividly the week that my sister was two years old and had a terrifying bout of rotovirus. Not eating junk food would not remedy the fact that she couldn't keep water down and was bottlefed water around the clock and couldn't stop crying because she had never had any junk food in the excess that Pro describes. I am so grateful that medicine has advanced to the point of there now being a vaccine.

[1] choosemyplate.gov
[2] http://www.immune.org.nz...
Debate Round No. 3
Akhenaten

Pro

1. Grains are bird food and are unsuitable for humans. Birds have a body temperature of 40 degrees celcius while humans have a body temperature of 37 degrees celcius. If humans eat too much bird seed their body temperature will increase to 40 degrees celcius because bird seed is a high energy food designed for birds so that they can fly. When somebody's body temperature gets to 40 degrees celcius they will feel sick and nauseous. A doctor will say that this person has flu like symptoms.
Dairy is food for baby cows and is unsuiatable for humans. If humans eat dairy foods they will get sick and have heart, lung and kidney blockages due to calcium overloading.

2. Angelman - genetic deformities are not diseases.
Nervous system defects - caused by heavy metals and halogen chemicals which are put into vaccines, plastics, pesticides, fungicides, fire retardants, medications and water supply.
Parasites - Not classed as disease. (malaria, roundworms, tapeworms, sleeping sickness and gardia) Can be avoided through proper diet and iodine. Don't drink dirty water. Careless behaviour and overcrowding.
HIV - Viruses don't exist so any viruses listed are just hoaxes. HIV is just a gay lifestyle disease caused by bad diet.
Bacterial infection - Leaky gut syndrome caused by eating too much grain food.
Stroke, heart attack, glaucoma, angina, arthritis, headache, and poor hearing all caused by grain and dairy products.

Vaccines don't do anything. It is only when a person stops eating the wrong foods that the sickness will leave of its own accord. Bacteria and viruses are not clever. Its humans that are stupid. I don't get sick because i stick to a strict diet and avoid dairy,grain and sugar.

3. Statistics - Benjamin Disraeli: 'There are three types of lies -- lies, damn lies, and statistics. lol
I am not surprised that you are an expert on statistics. lol

4. So, you admit knowing nothing about Luis Pasteur. Ignorance can be a blessing sometimes. lol
Note - I hope you realize that your whole argument depends on how well you know Luis Pasteur. lol

"Luis Pasteur did plenty of long neck experiments". That doesn't mean that he found out the secrets of what causes disease. According to modern nutrition, leaky gut syndrome and hormone reaserch - Luis Pasteur didn't find anything of significance. He was just a fraud and hustler who was able to trick people into thinking that he had discovered some profound secret of nature. Alas, nature is much smarter than Luis Pasteur and most modern day doctors.

Rotovirus - Alas, it appears that your household must have many unsantitary practices because fecal material infection is just a matter of careless food preparation and not washing hands.
Note - You can eat a some bad food occasionally. The human body can be very forgiving and will let you get away with a bit of naughtiness. It all depends on how much and how often that you eat bad foods. The more junk food you eat, the more often you will get sick, is a general rule.
grandma-complex

Con

1- Again Pro brought up the point that grain is bird food and causes the body to somehow begin to show symptoms of hyperthyroidism, chief among them being a 104 F fever. That would be an awesome cure for hypothyroidism! But it still lacks a source, as fascinating as that is. Also, wouldn't most people exhibit symptoms of the flu most of the time because most people have a lot of grain in their diet?

Dairy is not just for baby cows. It's also for most other mammalian babies. But Pro does reference a real disease - hypercalcemia - which is usually caused by an underactive thyroid, not a diet that has some dairy in it. Again: if what Pro alleges is true, why don't most people have "heart, lung, and kidney blockages" most of the time?

Also, hypercalcemia doesn't present itself in the way Pro states. Hypercalcemia usually comes with heart problems such as a short QT interval (though cardiovascular calcifications can occur), cognitive dysfunctions, polydipsia (unquenchable thirst) and polyuria (peeing too much). [1]

2- Disease: a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific signs or symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury. [2]

Genetic diseases: Still qualify as diseases

Nervous system disease: Usually genetics. Parkinson's, MS, Alzheimer's: all genetics. But they can be caused by infection, tumors, overuse or withdrawal from drugs, organ failure and (you'll like this) Thyroid disfuction, some B vitamin deficiencies, and electrolyte imbalances. [3]

Parasites: See above definition; still qualifies.

HIV: Viruses do indeed exist. Would you like to see some pictures again? [4] [5] And before you use your electron microscope argument: just because you have not seen it, does not mean it does not exist. Additionally, AIDS is not a purely "gay lifestyle" thing. In the USA, while 76% of cases of AIDS in men were from homosexual activity, 18% was from heterosexual activity and injection drug use. In women, 84% of cases were from heterosexual activity. [6] in Africa, only 6% of cases were from men who have sex with men. [7]

Bacterial infection: I have yet to get a source on leaky gut syndrome, but riddle me this: if I have a large cut on my arm that I don't let heal, left open to the air, and I'm on a no-carb diet: what causes to subsequent staph infection?

The rest of those diseases: Source please.

Vaccines: Pro keeps repeating the same thing over and over again.. this does not make it true. However, I am happy Pro has found something that allows him to remain healthy.

3- The quote used is in reference to statistics being used with no hard data to back it up. Considering Pro sourced a stastistic and now is calling it false, it can no longer be used. However, my source (Round 3, source 2) does have hard data behind it. Statistics are facts, but they are manipulable and can be used against those who do not understand them [8].

4- Does one really need to know everything about a scientist? I know nothing about the private life of Galileo, is it relevant?

"Luis Pasteur did plenty of long neck experiments" Pro - is that supposed to be a quote from me? I never said that. But Pasteur didn't find out the "secrets of what causes disease." He found out that disease isn't caused by spontaneous generation, that's it.

Again, Pro. You've previously stated all doctors are fraudsters (Round 5, argument 1) [9], so what makes the newest data true?

5- Pro is just proving my point. If fecal contamination causes disease, what in the feces causes disease?


[1] http://www.clevelandclinicmeded.com...
[2] https://www.google.com...
[3] http://www.webmd.com...
[4] http://www.foodandwine.hu...
[5] http://upload.wikimedia.org...
[6] Brock Biology of Microorganisms (14th Edition), Chapter 28, Section 28.9
[7] https://www.avert.org...
[8] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[9] http://www.debate.org...
Debate Round No. 4
Akhenaten

Pro

1. My opponent doesn't seem to understand that eating an unbalanced or improper diet can lead to thyroid dysfunction and temperature increases. The thyroid gland can be disrupted through eating too much grain food which causes a vitamin and iodine drain. Eating foods that lack vitamins like grain, sugar and dairy drain the body of vitamins which results in organ dysfunction.


In order to prove my point about this issue, I will concentrate on just one disease rather than dozens of separate diseases which may take some time and bore anybody that may be reading this debate. There is plenty of evidence to prove that HIV testing is a fraud, so I will use this example to show that medical science is mostly a gigantic fraud and is all about money making and profit.

2. HIV - There is no such thing as HIV. The medical system doesn't allow dissident views on HIV. Whenever a doctor diagnoses a patient as being HIV positive the medical system gets a $25,000 grant from the government as an incentive to find more HIV positive people. This system is open to abuse and results in people being diagnosed as HIV positive when they are not. This is because the medical system is corrupt and is all about making money from various forms of deception and false diagnosis. The medical stystem is a dictatorship similar to North Korea where alternate views are not tolerated and are dealt with harshly by the medical authorities.

Let's look at the case of Dr Peter Duesberg. This Dr had been receiving funding for HIV research for many decades. After challenging the HIV is the cause of AIDS hypothesis his grant funding was cut off. Thus, we can plainly see that the system can never see any alternative to the currently accepted dogma.


https://en.wikipedia.org...





https://www.youtube.com...




http://www.news24.com...

HiV testing in Japan found that 25% of Japanese people were HIV positive. This is a totally ludicrous result considering that only a tiny percentage of Japanese would be gay.

http://www.harmonikireland.com...

3. HIV tests are antibody tests, they do not test for the presence of viruses. Contrary to what people are told about antibodies, antibodies are not always specific. For example let's say you want to produce a monoclonal antibody for disease research. First you would take a blood sample and separate the serum. You then take an antigen test target and place it in the serum sample so antibodies attach to this antigen target. Though these antibodies are not all specific. They are a mixture of high affinity (specific) and low affinity (non-specific) antibodies. Of course all of these antibodies cannot be used to make monoclonals. So the antigen test target is placed in a weak solution of sodium sulfate solution to strip off the less specific antibodies. The target is then placed in a slightly stronger solution to remove the slightly more specific antibodies. This process is repeated until only high affinity antibodies, with an extremely high level of specificity are left. These are then used to make monoclonals. The reason this is so important is because this same principle is used in HIV antibody testing. Though in this case the antibodies are not differentiated. So low affinity antibodies reacting on HIV test targets yield false positives. This is the primary reason HIV antibody tests are known to have over 65 known causes for false positives! Examples in these cases would be false positives due to pregnancy, flu vaccines, typhoid vaccines, polio vaccines, malaria vaccines, gamma globulin, BLV antibodies from cow's milk or beef, and viral hepatitis. Autoimmune disorders, especially lupus, are also known to yield false positives. The risk of false positives increases with autoimmune conditions because the immune system shifts from producing predominately high affinity antibodies to predominately low affinity antibodies. The higher level of low affinity antibodies increases the risk of false positives on antibody tests. To further compound the problem the primary test for HIV is the ELISA, which is supposed to be confirmed by the Western blot. Though Western blot is less accurate than ELISA. The only reason it is done this way is because ELISA is less expensive than Western blot. But to use a less accurate test as a confirmation is just totally ludicrous!

Another problem with antibody tests is they do not prove the presence of a virus for another reason. Let’s say for an example that I had the flu from a influenza virus 2 weeks ago. So I am no over the flu. If I get tested for influenza antibodies am I going to test positive or negative? I am going to test positive of course, because my immune system has successfully fought off the virus, yielding anti-influenza antibodies in the process. So I would be influenza antibody positive, but virus negative. The same applies to HIV testing. If you are exposed to the HIV virus but your immune system is strong enough to fight it off you will have the antibodies temporarily, yielding a false positive HIV test, but you are still virus negative. It was proven a long time ago that the HIV virus cannot infect healthy immune systems.

Then there is the question of what really causes AIDS. HIV was stated as the cause by Robert Gallo after he got busted for scientific fraud. He tried to reclaim his credibility by claiming before a world wide AIDS symposium that he had found the cause of AIDS, which he claimed was HIV. The problems with this claim? Well, first of all he made it up! And secondly he was wrong! He had absolutely no solid research to back his claim. But the world was scared and had no answers. So when Gallo lied again the media did not stop to question the fact that there was no evidence of the claim. So they ran with the claim and it has been a part of AIDS history since. As far as Gallo being wrong, you need to understand what AIDS is to understand why he was wrong. AIDS is not a disease, it is a syndrome, acquired immune deficiency syndrome. A syndrome is not a disease, it is a group of symptoms. So if you develop certain symptoms you are given an AIDS diagnosis. Well under the original definition of AIDS, which was only opportunistic infections, HIV could not cause AIDS! So the government was really in a pickle. Here one of their top scientists had lied and was busted for scientific fraud making the US international fools. Now one of the governments top researchers, Robert Gallo, had lied again, which was highly embarrassing to the government if they could not cover the lie before it was widely publicized. So they came up with a solution, they changed the definition of AIDS to fit the HIV virus, so they could honestly claim that HIV could cause AIDS. Since HIV could not cause any disease in man, that ruled out using any opportunistic infections. So they went with the only thing the HIV virus could do, which was to drop the CD4 count. So the definition of AIDS was changed to include a drop in CD4 cells below 200. Thus a second international embarrassment by Gallo’s lies was averted!

Now for the rest of the story. Gallo had to lie because he had more than his credibility at stake. Gallo also held the patent rights to the HIV tests. So as long as people could be fooled in to believing that HIV caused AIDS he would continue to make a fortune off of royalties to his HIV tests!

So under the new definition HIV can cause AIDS, but not under the original definition. The only things that are known to cause AIDS under the original definition are the virus Human Herpes Virus Type 6 variant A (HHV6-A) and the drug AZT (zidovudine), which destroys the bone marrow leading to a drop of stem cells. This in turn leads to a drop of all immune cells, including CD4 cells. The drop in CD4 cells leads to an AIDS diagnosis as does the opportunistic infections created by AZT collapsing the immune system.


http://www.curezone.org...
grandma-complex

Con

Well. This has gone absolutely, wildly off topic. Pro has failed to mention anything about herd immunity.

But, since it's fun to research these things, I'll rebut.

1- I fail to understand how eating an unbalanced or improper diet can lead to thyroid dysfunction and temperature increases because I have yet to be provided with a source.

Also, unfortunately, Pro, grains have B vitamins [1]. Dairy has vitamins A, B, C, and D [2]. There are even small amounts of vitamin B in sugar! [3]

2- No such thing as HIV? Yes [4] there [5] most [6] certainly [7] is.

Now, the (actually $2500) grant Pro is referring to is under the Ryan White Act. This money is something of a last resort given to those who are underinsured or uninsured to pay for primary medical and emotional support services [8]. This isn't some sort of incentive grant to hospitals who find cases of HIV, it's to help actual HIV patients pay for treatment.

"This is because the medical system is corrupt and is all about making money from various forms of deception and false diagnosis. The medical stystem is a dictatorship similar to North Korea where alternate views are not tolerated and are dealt with harshly by the medical authorities."

Again Pro throws wild accusations out there without a source. Though, I doubt the medical industry is headed by a man with spasmodical ideas about how he should be worshipped and how any dissidents should be nuked.

Now let's examine Dr. Duesberg. He is a medical doctor, among the doctors who, according to Pro, are fraudsters. This already debunks the point Pro is attempting to make, but let's take it a step further. After actually looking at the wikipedia source Pro provides, it's clear that Duesberg fell from grace by dismissing questions and alternative theories and having unverifiable facts. [9] Additionally, as the face of AIDS denialism, he was indirectly responsible for the deaths of 330,000 people. [9]

The next source Pro gives is of a news report of a faulty AIDS test that had been blacklisted by WHO. The 25% statistic (which, being a statistic and according to Pro, fraud) is also nowhere to be found.

Pro also fails to acknowledge gay people are not the only population affected by AIDS.

3- Instead of making his own argument, Pro copies and pastes the entirity of an article into his argument. This article fails to acknowledge that other types of HIV testing are available [ie antigen tests and nucleic acid tests) that don't involve antibodies at all.

Goodness. The article claims that AIDS can't be caused by HIV because it is a syndrome. This is ludicrously false. Acquired Immunodefiency Syndrome is caused by a deficiency in the immune system. Which is caused by a virus that attacks the immune system. Which is HIV. HIV is not an opportunistic infection, it is (typically) an STD or bloodborne pathogen.

4- Anyway, the conversation has drifted away entirely from herd immunity and instead has become a conversation about the existence of AIDS. Pro has yet to source many of his allegation, and when he has sourced them, they are from sources he claims are fraudsters.

To summarize:

Vaccines work by shortening the duration of infection. This assists in breaking the chain of infection, but does not prevent infection all together.

Vitamin deficiency does not cause all disease.

Dr. Baylock and Duesberg have long been discredited.

Pro seems to be wary of both statistics and doctors - both of which he has cited.

Grain does not cause hyperthyroidism.

HIV exists and causes AIDS.

Medicine is not a North Korean dictatorship.

Vote CON.

[1] https://www.choosemyplate.gov...
[2] hhttps://www.healthyeating.org...
[3] http://healthyeating.sfgate.com...
[4] https://i.ytimg.com...
[5] http://img.medscapestatic.com...
[6] http://img.medicalxpress.com...
[7] https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net...
[8] https://hab.hrsa.gov...
[9] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[10] https://www.cdc.gov...
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Akhenaten 7 months ago
Akhenaten
It doesn't matter that I am off topic because germ theory and herd immunity are one and the same thing. The whole medical system is just a house of cards. One little flick and they all fall down together. lol
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