The Instigator
david77
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
DanT
Con (against)
Winning
1 Points

There is no thing as the Illuminati, or Freemasons

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
DanT
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/29/2011 Category: Society
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,075 times Debate No: 19561
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (0)
Votes (1)

 

david77

Pro

I am pro I shall assert that there is no secret society that others may refer to as the Illuminati or the Freemasons.

I would like to place burden of proof on the opponent So thus in round one not only my opponent would accept the round my opponent would also present his/her argument.

Just in case the opponent can't find out before he/she accepts the argument the time to argues 24 hours.
DanT

Con

A secret society is a society that conceals its activities from nonmembers.
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

The Freemasons are a secret society because of their oaths and obligations.

In all the degrees of Freemasonry there is an obligation principally concerning Secrecy. Once a Mason reaches the third degree in Craft Masonry, they gain an additional obligation of maintaining and upholding the F.P.O.F. 'in act as well as in word'.
http://www.themasonictrowel.com...

The Secrecy of Freemasonry concerns the form, the details of the ceremonial, the mariner of teaching and certain modes of recognition.This allows Masons to distinguish a genuine Mason from a impostor.
http://www.themasonictrowel.com...



Freemasonry is still around today, and the modern masons originated in the 1700's as a Gentleman's club, but can trace their roots to Middle Evil Europe, where the church granted a Mason guild special rights, which made them more free, so that they could travel easier, and build the great stone buildings of Europe. The Mason guild became the original Freemasons, and many of their traditions date back to this guild.




The Illuminati, unlike the Freemasons, no longer exist. They were an Enlightenment Era Secret Society. The Order of the Illuminati was founded by Johann Adam Weishaupt in Bavaria.




On March 2, 1785, the Bavarian Government outlawed Secret Societies with the Secular Edict, thus putting an end to the illuminati.

Secret Societies are not inherently sinister, but because they are secret, conspiracy theorists are able to spin what ever they want about them.

The fact of the matter is, Secret societies exist, but they are not what conspiracy theorist claim them to be.
Debate Round No. 1
david77

Pro

I would like to briefly point out that paintings of something do not support the existence of something. It is not an evidence of Freemasons.

Next I would like to point out that explaining what Freemasons do is different than providing evidence of their existence. So that means the entire section that I'm copy pasting is irrelevant to the existence of the so called Freemasons.

In all the degrees of Freemasonry there is an obligation principally concerning Secrecy. Once a Mason reaches the third degree in Craft Masonry, they gain an additional obligation of maintaining and upholding the F.P.O.F. 'in act as well as in word'.

The Secrecy of Freemasonry concerns the form, the details of the ceremonial, the mariner of teaching and certain modes of recognition.This allows Masons to distinguish a genuine Mason from a impostor.

which made them more free, so that they could travel easier, and build the great stone buildings of Europe. The Mason guild became the original Freemasons, and many of their traditions date back to this guild.

All of the above parts that I copy pasted is simply explaining what Freemasons are, or do. That has no real connection proving that they exist.

Secret Societies are not inherently sinister, but because they are secret, conspiracy theorists are able to spin what ever they want about them.

The fact of the matter is, Secret societies exist, but they are not what conspiracy theorist claim them to be.

This is not a debate about if Freemasons and Illuminati are evil or not. This is a debate about if they exist or not.

On March 2, 1785, the Bavarian Government outlawed Secret Societies with the Secular Edict, thus putting an end to the illuminati.

Ok so there were an secret society named Illuminati, but they don't exist anymore. Hence you somewhat indirectly supported my argument.

Freemasonry is still around today, and the modern masons originated in the 1700's as a Gentleman's club, but can trace their roots to Middle Evil Europe, where the church granted a Mason guild special rights,

This part however may show some support of Freemasons. I would like to see evidence supporting the above. Not just sources. Sources are people saying Freemasons are real, you may say that there are Freemasons people who say Freemasons are real but how do I know if they're not imposters or not? Also evidence provides much stronger arguments than people saying things are real or not.

The above copied piece was not mentioned in this source
http://www.themasonictrowel.com...
DanT

Con






The origin of Freemasonry is disputed. The most widely agreed upon theory by historians is that they originated from Mason Guilds. Some other theories is that they came from Templar knights who escaped persecution. The Masonic legend is that they originated from the building of the temple of Solomon, with the legend of Hiram Abiff.
http://friarsminor.org...

In Medieval Europe the Church created Guilds for various trades, including Masonry. The Mason Guild members were known as "Free Masons". The guild of Free Masons was special in that it was a migratory guild. Free Masons traveled in organized bodies through Europe, wherever their services were required in building. The guild was granted special freedoms of travel, thus giving them the name "Free Masons".
http://friarsminor.org...


Free Masonry went through various evolutions over time, evolving from a Guild to a Gentleman's club. Their Secrecy nearly lead to their own destruction after America was founded, especially when renegade members caused the Morgan Affair. The Morgan Affair lead to the creation of America's 3rd Political Party, known as the anti-Masonic party. Freemasonry was later reformed after the Civil War, leading to more members.
http://friarsminor.org...


The Free Masons Guild had close relations with the Order of the Knights Templar, due to their skills in Masonry, and they built many of the Templar architecture, thus the Templar Knights had some influence on the evolution of Freemasonry, but were not the origins of the Freemasons.
http://friarsminor.org...




Today Freemasons are a Charitable organization, and a Gentleman's club for people of all walks of life. They still keep many secrets, but they are also more open, than they were previously. The Shriners with the fez hats are members of Freemasonry. The shriners also run the shriner circus, which I used to love going to as a kid. You can see shriners at most parades.



Debate Round No. 2
david77

Pro

I should've mentioned before I started my debate that I'm deaf and therefore cannot understand videos unless they have english subtitles.

I did however watch the videos by clicking on the closed caption buttons and translating the audio. I think the captions are somewhat accurate for the first video. But the second video showed a lot of captions that didn't make sense, such as the caption said "... help with wife's tough decisions." When I think the video means life. There's other words in the captions in the 2nd video that appears to be mistakes but I won't point the all out. I stopped watching at 2:35.

I must say however I am presented with too strong of an argument to counter so thus I forfeit the debate.
DanT

Con

I'm sorry I did not know.

The video titled "Freemasonry today" is a promotional video created by Freemasons, and talks about their history and benefits. The video titled "scottish Rite Freemasonry: There Comes A Time" is a doctor explaining how freemasonry helped him become a doctor finacially, and how it has helped him become a better doctor.






Debate Round No. 3
david77

Pro

I forfeit this round.
Debate Round No. 4
david77

Pro

david77 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
No comments have been posted on this debate.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Chthonian 5 years ago
Chthonian
david77DanTTied
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit