There should be a Christian nation
Debate Rounds (5)
I would firstly like to point out several flaws in my opponents opening remarks.
1) Osama bin Laden did not declare war on the any faiths. (he only stated that Americans are Jewish and Christians mainly), he declared war on the USA, and later in 1998 the west. Therefore 'signing under a non christian' is irrelevant as America was not going to war for religious reasons, so there is no reason why Christians have more of a reason to fight. Also would love to hear your definitions and benefits of christian warier's? ;) Cause that makes you sound much like the crusaders who created allot of these issues in the first place.
2) The population of Israel is not is not all religious. Actually 37% of the population do not believe that there are any gods; and only 28% of the population believe that Israel is there's by right and because of their religion. So believing that any state only consists of 'brothers and sisters of faith' is just ludicrous and ill informed.
3) If these people are true Christians they have no desire to create a 'militarily system'. I would like to remind you that in the Christian god's own words 'you shall not murder' (commandment 6); so therefore why would the 'christian nation' want a system based on violence? This shows a complete ignorance of the true beliefs behind the Christian faith.
Now if we try to move on from those obvious flaws, I will now list the many issues with the proposal which my opposition has tried to put forward.
1) The Christianity is an international faith supported by millions who believe in it. It is a personal mental choice which many decide upon. But it does not need such obvious physical presence as a whole state as, as it relies more on subtle symbolism to manifest belief in people. It is woven neatly in the life of citizens who live in areas inhabited by atheists, Jews, Muslims along with many many other beliefs. And this creates a happy peaceful balance between the people of this earth. Therefore Christianity as a faith does not desire or require to become a physical state body.
2) Forgetting that Christianity opposes war (which is a major gaping hole in your resolution), what is Christianity fighting. As i have already pointed out Christianity is not at war with any force; because it is not physical body itself; so who do you believe it needs to defend itself from? The only answer is maybe Atheism or other belief systems similar to it. And if there is a battle between these powers, it is fought on an intellectual level like similar to this. If anything creating a 'nation of Christians' only gives more grounds for Atheists to argue; as it shows that your beliefs are outdated as they require a physical force to defend them instead of being provable thorough a system of logic.
3) If you believe that there should be a Christian nation, surely there should also be states for all other religions. A Islamic state for only Muslims, A atheist state for those who don't believe in a god at all.. ect ect. And where does the buck stop? Does X who believes in fairy's have his own state, or how about Y who is in a asylum and believes that plastics spoon created the world which is actually shaped like an egg cup deserve his own state? And if not, how do you qualify when a religion deserves or does not deserve a state of it's own?
4) 'More wars have been waged, more people killed, and more evil perpetrated in the name of religion than by any other institutional force in human history. The sad truth continues in our present day.' Charles Kimball
All we have to do is look at the number of wars created over religion to see that giving religion more power is something that will only bring more suffering to the people of this world. This is something that Christianity always aims to prevent so attempting to create a christian body is ludicrous.
To conclude, creating a Christian state is just a bad idea. Full stop.
Christianity by principle doesn't want or need a state of it's own; it makes an aging religion look even more outdated; it creates inequality between other religions (big or small); and it will most likely increase wars.
2. The Israel flag last time I checked had the Star of David in the center of the flag a well known Jewish symbol so don't try to say that Israel isn't Jewish.
3. Murder is killing in cold blood war is different the enemy is shooting back at you also God built and designed armies and soldiers before thank you and the Holy Bible the Holy Book of the Christian faith says they are going to fight in a massive war in the end anyway so yeah I think military is very important to the Christians.
Now for your points
1. Though in America and Europe Christians can be in society with others most of the time but in some places in Asia and Africa Christians are killed also it is not always peaceful between religions in America and Europe I myself living in America have been beaten for carrying a Bible as a free reading book in school by other students and shamed by the adults Christians need one place where they can be with there own kind and be completely safe.
2. Not once in the Bible does it say it stands against all war once again God creates armies of his own telling us we're going to fight in the biggest war ever and has sent warriors to fight.
3. If it is an actual religion with beliefs morals and a set system we have ways to tell what's a religion and what is not many of these cases have made it to supreme court also a nation only has the right to be a nation if it can sustain itself I don't think if they give the guy in the insane asylum a nation all buy himself that it will last very long there are millions of Christians who could form their own productive community and as far as Islam having its own nation they have plenty Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Turkey need I continue these are all devote Islamic nations.
4. Though Christians don't always like war does not mean we are not willing to commit to a few for our own nation also as you said Christians don't support wars so as long as we feel safe we wouldn't bother anyone it could very well be a neutral state when needed for peace talks.
To conclude my segment a Christian nation is not an awful idea it could work and people could be happy.
Just because we don't need one at the time doesn't mean we wont ever some day someone powerful might come for us then what and as long as the Christians feel safe our people won't want our armies marching around crushing everyone with force we prefer for people to convert when they wish.
Now onto my opponents mistakes in his opening remarks.
Point 1. The fact of the matter is that Bin Laden's official written decoration of war against America and the West does not state anything to do with religion. My opponent's claims that this is false, due to some 'video' which he apparently has seen (nice of him to show it to us through a link) is irrelevant as it is the documented fatwa itself which is the decoration of war, not Bin Laden's words.
Point 2. Unfortunately my opponent missed the point I was making here; as quite obviously Israel is a Jewish state. What I was highlighting to my opposition was that his view of 'Religious Nation' is very deluded.
My opponent uses Israel as an example of his idealised religious nation where the population can 'fight as brother and sister for their god'. But over a third of Israel's population is not religious (which is more than the number of atheists in the USA), so I am pointing out to him that the religious nation which he is attempting to create does not exist anywhere around the globe (and on a side note that if my opponent is complaining about the lack of religion in the US army; then creating an army similar to that of Israel's would be even worse, as there are even more atheists in it) .
Point 3. I would just like to copy out the definition of murder from the Oxford dictionary (which has defined definitions for both US and UK law since 1901.)
'the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another'
So my opponents argument that murder is related to 'cold blood' is simply false.
From this I would like to reaffirm my point. That according to the Christian book of law; good men should not 'kill another human'; so why would a 'Christian state' want an army.
And on a side note, i would be very pleased if my opponent could any examples of 'god creating army's' as I have studied the Christian faith and have no recollection of such acts.
Now onto the arguments in hand.
I would first like to state that being beaten for ones beliefs is wrong; and I feel very sorry for my opponent that such a monstrosity has occurred to you. But if anything I think that just shows that my opponents judgement has been clouded by the events in the past; and that he is unfit to debate logically on a debate such as this.
But I would like to reaffirm my statement that Christianity is a personal choice which people of today make; but it does not need to be reaffirmed with such a violent physical presence as a military (along with the fact that a 'Christian army' is in many way's a contradiction (see point 3)) Christianity is not threatened on a physical level in today's modern society.
And in the few examples where it could be argued to be true, for example in 'Africa' as my opponent bluntly puts it, I think that the reasons behind the attacks can be blamed more on the social and economic difficulties of these underdeveloped country's than the safety of the religions themselves. I would also like to point out that many other faiths a persecuted in other rare occasions; so why should Christianity itself be an exception? But let's for the sake of argument consider that Christianity is persecuted against unfairly on some occasions; believing that the reasonable solution to issues of these is to create a 'Christian army' in it's own 'state' is completely ludicrous. My opponent is suggesting that just because a few thousand individuals get unfairly treated, that 2 billion people should leave their country and create their own nation!
I would like again to see examples of these so called 'army's' which my opponent refers to. Also please see my points made in Point 3 where I clearly show that God did not intend Christians to kill.
I also will assume that my opponent can think of no physical threats to Christianity; as he does not answer that question in the argument i made. From this it seems fair to conclude that even if a Christian army was not a contradiction; that there would be no need for it, as there is nothing for it to fight.
I would also like to point out to my opponent that a large number of Christians are pacifists who for obvious reasons would not want a military. So while creating your 'Christian nation' you would soon discover that only a small percentage of your population would want to 'fight next to their brothers and sisters'. Therefore it is fair to sate that a large number of Christians would not want your 'Christian sate'.
I ask my opponent to see the number of 'official and recognised' religions which exist on the globe; this being his method of deciding if a religion deserves a nation of his own.
Now I hardly think I need to make an argument here; as this evidence itself proves just how ridiculous my opponents suggestions really are. But just for arguments sake.
How do you plan to create this?
How would politics work?
Would there be any global economy?
How do we decide which religion get's which territory?
.... And so on and so on. The questions could go on for ever; but unfortunately i don't have enough characters to last forever.
But this argument shows just how much of a joke this resolution really is.
Again my opponent seemed to of missed the argument which I was raising to him. History has shown us again and again that religion creates war (most of the time).
Here is just a few examples of wars which started over religion. So surely Creating a world which is shaped by religion (from Argument 3, the idea suggested by my opponent that the world's lands should be split and every religion have it's own nation) will only increase the number of wars.
To conclude. I think that I have fairly overturned every point my opponent has made; and shown this resolutions to be just plain wrong. Vote Con.
1. If you watch this video it shows his distaste for the Christian faith as he does many times in his life
2. Though Israel has non believers they are a Jewish state and many of their wars are caused because people want to attack the Jewish faith in which Jewish warriors can stand together and defend their faith the Christians cannot.
3. Is it unlawful though to kill someone who is trying to kill you and if not than that means if a Christian who kills in war is not murdering the other person. As far as the Christian state wanting a military it would once again be so the faith would remain safe. Also the book of Revelations explains God creating an army.
Attack 1. I do thank my opponent for his humanity and have gained a great amount of respect for him in this debate but I must state that the fact of my past has given me a good reason for this debate because I am not the only one Christians should feel safe from attack and persecution even if it is only 1 Christian the faith should be able to protect them
I agree Christianity is a personal choice but as these sites show Christianity has shrunk in the last ten years and is being threatened in the middle east why wait till we need to defend ourselves we should be allowed to prepare now even if Osama bin Laden had never existed its just known that if there ever was to be an Islamic super power in the middle east their first targets would be Israel and Jewish faith America and the west and Christianity also a Christian nation does not fully imply we would build a massive military it would just be one part of a Christian society another bonus of it would be prayer in school and teaching of creationism in stead of being forced to listen to the theory in which man evolved from ape and we wouldn't have to work on Sundays which our Holy book tells us not to do.
Never did I say Christians should be an exception I just think if say a Hindu wants to be in a Hindu country they have that option same with Buddhists and Jewish and Muslims but not Christians Christianity built the Americas and know is dying off in the two biggest countries the fastest.
Attack 2. In the book of Revelations it tells the Christians we are going to war and will fight in a massive battle called Armageddon.
As I already pointed out my opponent their are no major threats now but if we wait until there are it would be to late to try and fight back.
Yes many Christians are pacifists but many are not many such as myself do not mind a military some of us even study the old Crusades and Templar's one of my favorite things is studying history and seeing a battle where the general pulls a double flank bottle cap or a pincer movement it shows intelligence but at the same time I'm not asking for a Christian military super power I'm dreaming of a nation that probably wouldn't have a massive military it would just have enough to protect itself.
Attack 3. I am a little unsure on what my opponents asking but I think it goes along the lines of where and what the country would be and if that is it I can explain first a nice area would be Somalia for those who don't know Somalia is on the horn of Africa right near the middle east which is the Christian Holy Land and has been a barbarian state if you will for years I call it this because it has no active government this is also known as an Anarchy state where the Christians could set up and take power even with a small military they would have better equipment if the nation was being made the same way as Israel and they would take power. As far as the government that would be up to the Christians it may be a Monarchy or a Republic or a Dictatorship its all up to the people at first. For economy Somalia is right next to the Arabian and Red sea's these bodies of water are large in shipping and trade the Pirates have raided these areas for years but if the Christians stopped the pirates and controlled the bottle necks of these areas they could charge people for permission to sail through the area and could also open them up largely on trade. As for other nations I see it as they all ready have nations as I have pointed out.
Attack 4. 1000 years ago religion was the most important thing to every human being on earth not anymore though the Christians learned with the Crusades how awful Holy wars are and now only wish to end them just by giving the Christians a nation does not mean there will be more wars if you give a nation to a religion that now wants just peace which would be the entire reason for building it then how would it cause any more wars?
I believe I have answered my opponents questions completely Vote Pro!
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