There will be a nuclear war inside two generations.
Firstly there is already a precedent for the use of atomic bombs against a nation " when the USA used them to bomb Japan. The difference back then was that only the USA had atomic bombs so there couldn't"t possibly be a counter reaction of a like for like nature. However, what those attacks on Japan demonstrated is that the kinds of people that tend to be put in charge of your nation would be prepared to mass murder lots of civilians with atomic or nuclear weapons. If such a mind set and will could exist back then it can exist again. Only the nuclear weapons now are many times more powerful, far more numerous and indeed held by various nations. Israel have an undeclared and uninspected arsenal of nuclear weapons, estimate to be around 400 in total. This was confirmed(it was the worse kept "secret" anyway) by the former Israeli scientist, Vanunu, who gave up his liberty in order to inform World media of Israel"s nuclear arsenal.
Mordechai Vanunu is a former Israeli nuclear technician who, citing his opposition to weapons of mass destruction, revealed details of Israel's nuclear weapons program to the British press in 1986.
He was subsequently lured to Italy by a Mossad agent, where he was drugged and abducted by Israeli intelligence agents. He was transported to Israel and ultimately convicted in a trial that was held behind closed doors.
Vanunu spent 18 years in prison, including more than 11 in solitary confinement. Released from prison in 2004, he became subject to a broad array of restrictions on his speech and movement. Since then he has been arrested several times for violations of those restrictions, including giving various interviews to foreign journalists and attempting to leave Israel. He says he suffered "cruel and barbaric treatment" at the hands of Israeli authorities while imprisoned, and suggests that his treatment would have been different if he were Jewish (Vanunu is a Christian convert from Judaism.)
Please pay close attention to this part of an interview that he did;
TILLAWI " "Mordechai, there are a lot of nations that have nuclear weapons. What is it about Israel having them that makes you so nervous?.."
VANUNU " "Because Israel wants to use them, to cause genocide and holocaust on other innocent citizens. It has always been a part of Israel's secret policy. And also by having them, Israel will use them as a threat to avoid making peace with the Arab world as well as imposing her policies on those peoples. As long as she has them, she will continue on in her policies of not making peace, of occupation and of neglecting the Palestinian suffering caused by the refugee camps that have existed for more than 50 years."
Full transcript here http://www.currentissues.tv...
Here we have a former Israeli nuclear scientist that was prepared to risk life and liberty in order to inform the World of Israel"s nuke stock hold and, perhaps more crucially, their intent.
When such a source speaks it would be wise to listen and pay heed.
He is not the only Israel to speak about their nukes and intent.
The Israeli military historian, Martin van Creveld, widely respected as a military historian in Israel is on record as making this statement;
In a September 2003 interview in Elsevier, a Dutch weekly, on Israel and the dangers it faces from Iran, the Palestinians and world opinion van Creveld stated:
"We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force". We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under"."
That ^^ is a confession, blackmail and a threat " all rolled into one.
In total there are nine nations that have nukes. Those are - The United States, Russia, United Kingdom, France, China, India, Pakistan, Israel and North Korea.
According to a new report from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), they hold between them 16,300 nuclear weapons.
We have psychopaths and megalomaniacs that have commandeered nations, we have a some very powerful confessions and threats on public record from Israel, a state whose nuclear power was gained by stealth and shrouded in secrecy.
For me it is not so much a case of why would they provoke a war that would go nuclear and more one of why would they NOT? Do you honestly think we are going to go generation after generation and the cabal of psychopaths and gangsters at the top are never going to do that which leads to a war going nuclear? Do you think these people hold the same values and ethics that you might have? Do you think they would be the first or last to suffer?
I hope to accomplish two goals by participating in this debate and winning it.
Sound crazy? Keep reading.
First the facts as you have already presented. There is only one government on the planet that has ever dropped a nuclear bomb on anyone. We all know which government that is, and anyone with a brain knows why that government got away with it. (for those of you without a brain, the reason that government got away with it is because it was the only legal mafia in possession of a nuclear bomb the moment it was detonated).
Other governments responded quickly to defend themselves, hence the proliferation of nuclear might amongst multiple nation states. The trend continues today as less wealthy governments find any way (scruples be damned) to get on a level playing field with their rival gangsters.
What we are witnessing is simple: the gangsters are competing for the best firepower to keep other gangsters off their turf. Once the playing field is equal, these weapons of mass destruction will continue to collect more dust as they have since more than one mafia acquired them.
Yes, I would concur that the true power of nations is essentially in the hands of what are gangsters, a 'mafia' if you will. This may not be how they are presented to us in the media, they are merely presented to us as 'successful world leaders', but then if Al Capone owned the narrative, how would Al Capone media have portrayed Al Capone? As a gangster and thug? Or as an entrepreneur and legitimate businessman? Obviously the latter.
However, the fact that we now agree that the true power lies in the hands of what are effectively gangsters, I can only feel this further lends itself to the idea that sooner or later their thirst for war, chaos, destruction and simply their natural psychopathy is going to lead to a nuclear war. Even if, as you say, other nations can now retaliate in kind, I still think there are those with the will and the nature to plunge us into a nuclear war. It may not even be a nuclear enabled nation that is hit. It may be more likely that one that is enabled would strike one that is not. For example, do we honestly consider Israel stable and tempered enough not to fire one of those war heads at Tehran in the next few decades? We can currently see a very volatile set of conditions in Syria. There are Russian fighters there, there are now apparently US troops on the ground, you have what are being called ISIL present, you have Assad's own forces, you've got Kurds there fighting, the Chinese have a presence and, of course, Israel are next door.
All it would take would be for the usually trigger happy Israel to take down a Russian aircraft and that could very easily escalate. Even if a WW3 were not the actual intent, with the present toxic mix that we see, it's something that could very easily evolve out of this mix. A WW3 most surely would not start out nuclear. But it would end nuclear.
Also some information from the past to consider;
Top Secret Documents Reveal A NATO Training Exercise Nearly Started A Nuclear Apocalypse With Russia
A recently declassified document has revealed that in 1983, the United States and Russia were almost plunged into nuclear war and here's the real kicker: It would have been completely by accident.
The New York Times has, for the first time, shed light on these documents which reveal that in '83 NATO was planning a massive nuclear-based military exercise.
Unfortunately for the world, the USSR didn't get that memo and so when it saw that most of the western world's military were moving into high-alert it assumed that the training exercise was actually a cover for a genuine attack.
It is thought that the exercise could have, at some stages, brought the two countries closer to war than even the famous Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962.
6 Tiny Mistakes That Almost Ended the World
A Blown Fuse Nearly Triggers Armageddon
A 50-Cent Computer Chip Mistakenly Announces Nuclear War
NORAD Mistakenly Informs America That the World Is Ending
A Fictional War Scenario Is Confused With Horrible Reality
Russia Confuses a Science Experiment With World War III
America Messes Up Repeatedly During the Cuban Missile Crisis
Man I wish this debate was five rounds!
And yes, the fact that the two of us see these sociopaths for what they are (gangsters) rather than ‘leaders’ will ensure our communication remains effective on this subject. We’ve obviously both already swallowed the red pill on that one.
Here’s where I think your train of thought derails though. These narcissists are utterly consumed with three things (and I think simply by observing their actions one cannot help but agree). They are:
Initiating a nuclear holocaust threatens all three. Even retaliating to such an initiation stands to be scrutinized before reacting blindly (see point 1). The sociopath who will happily send his subjects to die in conventional warfare to advance his agenda (see point 2) finds his very agenda threatened if he engages in nuclear warfare – and this he cannot have, as he is too myopic and self-centered to think about anything or anyone besides himself.
You have to ask yourself, if the gangsters in Israel want to incinerate Tehran in a ‘preemptive act of self-defense’, what exactly are they waiting on? Obviously it would be completely illogical for Israel to wait until Iran has a nuclear stockpile, which it eventually will (see point 1). If these crazy people (not just the gangsters in Israel, but governments everywhere) are so dead set on using mass destruction and mass murder to advance their agendas, why does nobody do it? Why hasn’t it happened since WW2? Why is every example of ‘we got really close this one time’ you offered in Round 1 an unintentional blunder rather than a premeditated act of aggression that was somehow thwarted by rational discourse and civility?
The answer is because nuclear warfare doesn’t advance anybody’s agenda. Even the gangsters know that nuclear warfare threatens their personal life, their personal property, and their legitimacy – all at one fell swoop no less.
It only worked one time (and whether it actually ‘worked’ or was even necessary is of course the subject of another debate entirely), and that’s only because one single gangster on the global stage had the bomb.
Now indeed the situation in the Middle East (and especially Syria as you have pointed out) is volatile right now. But more volatile than what exactly? The Cold War? The Cuban missile crisis? The Middle East at any other time within the past forty years? Not particularly!
Al Capone’s media might be making the situation appear overly detrimental at the moment so that he can sway the public at large (see point 3) to agree to conventional warfare to further his personal agenda – but do not be fooled. He is just as scared of the bomb as everybody else is.
Good times and look forward to Round 3.
Not that I am at all religious, but these people are beyond simply not religious, they are only interested in a kingdom of their own, right here on Earth. There is nothing spiritual or esoteric about them, so unlike those who believe in an afterlife they are generally only interested in their dominion in this one.
To preside over a material world you cannot reduce it entirely to glass and dust and leave nothing left that is alive. I think this is their paradox and it"s what has perhaps caused them to pause from going nuclear in the past. It"s not that they feel bad about the mass death tolls and destruction it would cause " they probably like that part. It"s the chance of it spinning beyond their control and to a stage that things occur that weren"t part of their plans. However, with all of that said, we have to always remember that they do not see the World as you or I do. There can be no accounting for what literal psychopaths and megalomaniacs may do. Sometimes the actions of such people really do end up destroying themselves. We see this with people who are pathological, paranoid, obsessive and controlling in their own lives " often times their very actions eventually bring about their own downfall.
They did not set out to destroy themselves, they never conceive that their actions could possibly finally impact upon them " until they do. They have a psyche similar to the serial killer that brings about his own eventual downfall by playing games with detectives and leaving clues when he did not need to. But he believed he was so clever, he is so confident of his own perceived cunning, that he feels he can do what he does and even leave clues for detectives. Such a man does not leave those clues because he wants to be arrested and stopped " he does it because he is so sure that he is too intelligent to be stopped.
You also have to keep in mind that there are likely underground nuclear shelters for the most privileged that would look to us like small and sophisticated subterranean villages. Those most culpable would likely be those with the access to such locations, which would be fully stocked and equipped with everything you could need to last a long period of time if needs be. These would not be cramped and crude little spaces either " I am speaking here of areas that would be relatively luxurious and certainly very safe.
Moreover, a war involving nukes does not necessarily = the "end of the world" anyway. It may only be a partial nuclear war, it may only be dedicated to one or two areas it doesn"t need to be seen as nukes raining down in all countries everywhere. Those with nukes already may be the last to be hit. Those without would be most vulnerable and probably the first to be hit. It"s not so much that the international mafia want a nuclear war as a first position and first action. They have conventional wars, they have hired mercenaries to create fake civil wars they have many means to bring down nations and Gov"s without firing a single nuke. It"s more that their constant desire for chaos, subterfuge state sponsored terrorism and psychopathy will lead to a situation that finishes up going nuclear when the conventional side drags on too long.
Israel would not engage Iran in a conventional war and on their own for the very simple reason that they would lose. Israel have never fought a proper and professionally trained army and the IDF are more used to killing women or kids in Gaza. Israel would be too cowardly to fight Iran in a conventional war and on their own. They prefer to get their lobbyists and oligarchs in the US to get the US to do such things. That way they don"t risk their own men and spend their own budgets and the blow back is on America.
All of US foreign policy is reduced to "what Israel want". Been that way for decades now and it gets worse as time goes by. Israel wanted Iraq destroyed " a story was concocted on the back end of that and hey presto " Iraq was destroyed and up to one million civilians were murdered. Saddam kept the different factions and rogue elements in Iraq from gaining traction. He was what a nation like that needs, otherwise it descends into a land of chaos where gangsters and religious fanatics reign. You can see that this is in fact what has happened since the piracy in Iraq. Not only is Iraq a far more dangerous place to be today " it has made the rest of the World more dangerous.
This doesn"t concern Israel though as they never take in any of the displaced peoples. Instead they go to Europe and the US and as you can see from events in Paris, it ends in tragedy for the host people
Israel has not managed to get the US into a war with Iran " yet. But they keep trying, and that"s what they do, they keep trying and trying until eventually they do manage to get it going. The timing is key to them, because people are still cynical after Iraq, they understand that at the moment it is harder to sell a narrative for war with Iran. They NEED to sell the narrative to the public, this is why they use so many lies and so much propaganda. They could not get a war going and sustain it without some level of wide public support. It"s not that our views matter, but the moment we become disgruntled pawns over a war, they simply cannot sustain it for very long after. It"s the public that our soldiers etc come from at the end of the day, and its public money that is used to pay for them " so they need you to buy into the reasons.
Could they get us to buy into a nuclear strike? Sure. Even today and all this time on, most Americans still think doing it to Japan was a "good thing".
56% of Americans still believe Hiroshima bombing was justified
Secret of the US nuclear bunkers
Presidential Emergency Operations Centre
Professor Peter Hennessy has obtained the previously secret plan for the Queen, the Duke of Edinburgh and the Home Secretary to use the Royal Yacht Britannia to escape Soviet missiles.
Under the so-called "python system", they would hide in sea lochs on the coast of North West Scotland while other senior ministers scattered to a variety of secret locations.
Have a good week.
forty2oz forfeited this round.