The Instigator
shakuntala
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
KhalifV
Con (against)
Winning
16 Points

These love poems are more full of love than Shakespeares sonnet 18

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
KhalifV
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/31/2014 Category: Arts
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 848 times Debate No: 59091
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
Votes (3)

 

shakuntala

Pro

These love poems are more full of love than Shakespeares sonnet 18

http://www.scribd.com...
so lets start with a definition of love
http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
1. A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness.
2. A feeling of intense desire and attraction toward a person with whom one is disposed to make a pair; the emotion of sex and romance.
3.
a. Sexual passion.

(Sonnet 18)
William Shakespeare, 1564 - 1616

Shall I compare thee to a summer"s day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate.
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And summer"s lease hath all too short a date.
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
And often is his gold complexion dimmed;
And every fair from fair sometime declines,
By chance, or nature"s changing course, untrimmed;
But thy eternal summer shall not fade,
Nor lose possession of that fair thou ow"st,
Nor shall death brag thou wand"rest in his shade,
When in eternal lines to Time thou grow"st.
So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see,
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.

so words like desire feelings of affection sexual desire romance are keys to analyising both poems
so
point 1
sonnet 18
has no desire feelings of affection sexual desire- all we get is objective description no subjectivity no emotion
now
DEANS POEM examples
"Last night when all did sleep the breeze did bring the musky scent of the cunts hyacinth breath from which delight did I reap" oh cried kohl'in al-deen
"where is the cunt my cup the delight of the world
where is the cunt that be the throne of paradise
where be the cunt that of my cheek perfumes from its cunts curls where be the cunt that gives this seeker peace fromst the pain that in I swirls Alas no answering call to dry the tears of my lament no one knoweth the cunts intent "

these lines are full of love-passion sexual desire etc-where sonnet 18 is not
again
"The cunt is flushed with red the cunts folds hast burst into spreading blooms on their sight drunked art I hail those who on the cunts musky cunt dew doth imbibe its sweet perfumed breath oh behold the marvel the seeker seeks behold the juice that satiates the seekers parched thirst from which for hours on hours he doth not sleep Oh cries kohl'in al-deen come all to the halting-station of thy afflictions and thy woes for mirth on earth the goal which seeker seeks to give rebirth
KhalifV

Con

NO. NO. NO.
Also it is pro's BoP/
Love: " It can refer to an emotion of a strong attraction and personal attachment.[1] It can also be a virtue representing humankindness, compassion, and affection—"the unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another".[2] It may also describe compassionate and affectionate actions towards other humans, one's self or animals."

Dean's poetry is vulgar.
The poem just incessantly repeats "cunt".
There is no sophistication. Dean's poetry is void of any real feeling, it's limited to vile, offensive, low class porn.

""where is the cunt my cup the delight of the world
where is the cunt that be the throne of paradise"

Really?
" Cunt /G2;kA2;nt/ is a word for the female genitalia, particularly the vulva, and is widely considered to be extremely vulgar."

Cunt is not the word one want's to use when expressing love. Common usage of the world is insulting.
The speaker in dean's poem seems to be a nymphomaniac. There is no personal attraction. The speaker merely has an unhealthy obsession with "cunt".

On the otherhand, the Shakespeare is lovely. what can we extrapolate from the dear Bard Of Avon?
The sonnet expresses an eternal love.
The speaker has an admiration for the beauty of a girl.
He says that this beauty will never fade.
He says that she lives forever in the sonnet. This is beautiful, she and all her beauty is immortalized by him.
The sonnet displays a profound love and admiration, while Dean's poetry is merely vulgar.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.shakespeare-online.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 1
shakuntala

Pro

con says

"Really?
" Cunt /G2;kA2;nt/ is a word for the female genitalia, particularly the vulva, and is widely considered to be extremely vulga"
I pity the girl you make love if she only knew that you think her cunt is vulgar
also it is her cunt you want to put your dick in -how horrible for you you are putting your dick is going into in a horrible thing

deans poetry is to teach you that the cunt is a beautiful thing
how beautiful is this- you cant see the beauty because you think the cunt is vulgar how sad

"""where is the cunt my cup the delight of the world
where is the cunt that be the throne of paradise""

con says
The speaker in dean's poem seems to be a nymphomaniac. There is no personal attraction. The speaker merely has an unhealthy obsession with "cunt". "
the same obsession you have when you want to put your dick in the cunt if dean is vulgar then so must you be

con says
"On the otherhand, the Shakespeare is lovely. what can we extrapolate from the dear Bard Of Avon?
The sonnet expresses an eternal love.
The speaker has an admiration for the beauty of a girl.
He says that this beauty will never fade.
He says that she lives forever in the sonnet. This is beautiful, she and all her beauty is immortalized by him.
The sonnet displays a profound love and admiration, while Dean's poetry is merely vulgar"

Shakespeare is boring he has admiration with out passion
take deans lines-full of longing admiration and passion nothing vulgar about this -you must realize that if you see the vulgar then your mind is vulgar

to the pure all things are pure-to the vulgar mind all things are vulgar

"From out of paradise bloweth a perfumed breeze that for this beggar of cunt does bringeth ease scent of the cunt doth o"er flow I that drunketh be I on the breath of that cunt that sendeth the scent to I Oh kohl'in al-deen sighs giveth cunny dew to this wayfarer this slave of cunt hail the seeker of cunt for cunt is lifes meaning lifes questing end alike for all the cunt its lips does spread for all in its folds are warmed and fed a tavern in which the thirstys thirst is quickly fled"
KhalifV

Con

Pro says: "I pity the girl you make love if she only knew that you think her cunt is vulgar
also it is her cunt you want to put your dick in -how horrible for you you are putting your dick is going into in a horrible thing
deans poetry is to teach you that the cunt is a beautiful thing
how beautiful is this- you cant see the beauty because you think the cunt is vulgar how sad"

The usage of cunt is usually vulgar. This is not to say a vagina is not profound or beautiful.

"Shakespeare is boring he has admiration with out passion"
I don't think it's boring, I find it exciting and lovely.
Passion is not the same as love. We are debating love not passion. And I would argue Shakespeare does have passion, he's just not painfully vulgar.

Argument from Solipsism:
P1) My mind is the only mind
P2) In my mind Shakespeare's work is more filled with love
P3) In all minds Shakespreare's work is more filled with love.
C1) Shakespeare's work is more filled with love.

Resolution negated :)
P1- I am thinking therefor, I have a mind.
Pro is P-Zombie.
" A philosophical zombie or p-zombie in the philosophy of mind and perception is a hypothetical being that is indistinguishable from a normal human being except in that it lacksconscious experience, qualia, or sentience.[1] For example, a philosophical zombie could be poked with a sharp object, and not feel any pain sensation, but yet, behave exactly as if it does feel pain (it may say "ouch" and recoil from the stimulus, or tell us that it is in intense pain)."
It is the case that pro is merely an extension of my consciousness.

Conclusion- Since in my mind Shakespeare is more filled with love, and my mind is the only mind, then Shakespeare is more filled with love.
I win ^.^

http://www.iep.utm.edu...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 2
shakuntala

Pro

con says
"Conclusion- Since in my mind Shakespeare is more filled with love, and my mind is the only mind, then Shakespeare is more filled with love.
I win ^.^"

your are wrong

this is not about your subjective feelings
this is about how well sonnet 18 objectively fits the definition of love
and I have shown with quotes why deans poem fits it better than Shakespeare
all you have given is assertions you have given no proof as to why sonnet 18 fits the definition of love better than deans poem except saying "in my mind Shakespeare is more filled with love,"

you need to show how "objectively" how sonnet 18 fits the definition of love

if I wrote
"my sh*t stunk to high heaven" and said it was a love poem you would just say it did not fit the definition of love ie passion desire sexual passion etc
so same applies here
unless you give us objective proof of your assertions then I must win the debate
KhalifV

Con

Lol pro has not addressed my argument.

" Logical positivism, also called logical empiricism, a philosophical movement that arose in Vienna in the 1920s and was characterized by the view that scientific knowledge is the only kind of factual knowledge and all traditional metaphysical doctrines are to be rejected as meaningless. "

P1) My mind is the only verifiable mind
P2) In my mind Shakespeare is more filled with loved
P3) In all minds Shakespeare is more filled with love
C1) Shakespeare is more filled with love

P1-
P1) If I am thinking, I have a mind
P2) I am thinking
C1) I have a mind
A derivation is if you don't have a mind, you are not thinking.
Thinking: ": the action of using your mind to produce ideas, decisions, memories, etc."
"A mind /G2;ma=8;nd/ is the set of cognitive faculties that enables consciousness, perception, thinking, judgement, and memory—a characteristic ofhumans, but which also may apply to other life forms"
So the notion that if you are thinking, you have a mind, seems to be pretty well substantiated.

Proposition X is the proposition that you are thinking.
Propistion X' (X prime) is the proposition that you are merely an extension of my subconscious.
Both are indistinguishable in regards to verification.
Both X and X' are indistinguishable in regards to verification, both propositions are equal.
The consequence is that you actually can't verify either.
Since they are both indistinguishable, they are meaningless
Since both propositions are meaningless, they should be dismissed.

Since I am the only verifiable mind and in my mind Shakespeare is more filled with love, then Shakespreare is more filled with love.

Pro says: "this is not about your subjective feelings"
No. This is inherently subjective. I can give reasons to why I think Shakespeare is more filled with love than your poems, but I can't objectively verify that they are.
I have given reasons as to why I think Shakespeare is better, hence my first round.
http://www.britannica.com...
http://www.merriam-webster.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 3
shakuntala

Pro

In conclusion

con says
"Pro says: "this is not about your subjective feelings"
No. This is inherently subjective. I can give reasons to why I think Shakespeare is more filled with love than your poems, but I can't objectively verify that they are."

con says
"I can give reasons to why I think Shakespeare is more filled with love than your poems"

but as we can see he has NOT given reasons-all he has given is assertions

as I have given reasons backed up by quotes and con has not then I must win the debate

it is no use con now giving reason a this is the end of the debate and could not respond even if con did try and prove his point with reasons and quotes

so I must win
I thank con for his debate
KhalifV

Con

:(
This is agitating.
Pro has the BoP.
I don't have to prove anything, I just have to negate.
I have given reasons for why I think Shakespreare is superior.

My assertion is that Shakespeare is more filled with love.
Reasons: Dean is vulgar
Dean is unsophisticated(Both derived from a quick glance at the poetry)
Awkward read(Also attainable through a quick read.
Shakespeare:The sonnet expresses an eternal love.
The speaker has an admiration for the beauty of a girl.
He says that this beauty will never fade.
He says that she lives forever in the sonnet. This is beautiful, she and all her beauty is immortalized by him.

Quotes from sonnet to substantiate my view.
"By chance, or nature"s changing course, untrimmed;
But thy eternal summer shall not fade,"

"So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see,
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee."


Once again pro can't objectively prove something that is subjective.

Pro did not respond to my arguments from Solipsism/ Logical Positivism.

Vote Con if you think that Shakespreare is a wonderful, delightful and iconic poet whose legacy is degraded by even being compared to the vulgar, unsophisticated,poorly written, awkward poetry of dean.

:)




Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by shakuntala 2 years ago
shakuntala
so tell us why
"cunt is a vulgar word "
Posted by YaHey 2 years ago
YaHey
Your response also seems to deny that guys can, you know, have any other motivation than getting laid. I guess gay guys dont exist, either, since all guys want the cunt.
Posted by YaHey 2 years ago
YaHey
See, you confuse the obession with a vagina, which is something I don't actually have, by the way, and the word 'cunt'. A vagina is work of nature, cunt is a vulgar word that goes beyond the biology of a vagina. Just like a penis is a work of nature, but dick is a vulgar word that goes beyond the biology of a penis. Jesus Christ, I didn't think that needed to be explained
Posted by shakuntala 2 years ago
shakuntala
it is said
"Skakuntala, writing poems for chronic masturbaters,
Has an obsession with 'cunt'"

if you are a male then be honest with yourself Skakuntala,obsession with 'cunt is also yours and I bet you masturbate thinking of it -so get real get honest
Posted by YaHey 2 years ago
YaHey
Shakuntala, the great Shakespeare hater,
Skakuntala, writing poems for chronic masturbaters,
Has an obsession with 'cunt'
Not subtlety, just blunt,
60 'debates', how many until we say "see ya later"?
Posted by Oromagi 2 years ago
Oromagi
Shakuntala difference 'tween modern and -post
Shakuntala difference 'tween verses and boast

Shakuntala difference 'tween blurbs, plugs and prose
Skakuntala 's much about how a line flows.

Shakuntala's different, debaters agree
Shakuntala's why all her poems are 'bout pee

Shakuntala difference 'tween telling and show
Shakutnala's a nuisance how I wish she would go.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by FuzzyCatPotato 2 years ago
FuzzyCatPotato
shakuntalaKhalifVTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro failed to uphold BOP. Con showed "cunt" unlovely.
Vote Placed by YaHey 2 years ago
YaHey
shakuntalaKhalifVTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro constantly tried to shrug off the burden of proof, and her language, especially in the last round, was hostile. Judging by Pro's S&G, they haven't advanced beyond remdial English. Pro didn't meet their burden of proof, and Con showed that CLD's poem is vulgar and hollow where Shakespeare's tells a beautiful story of eternal love and passion. Pro's only sources were to free poetry, and thus Con gets the point.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
shakuntalaKhalifVTied
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Reasons for voting decision: con made good logical arguments and pointed out that the parody was much too vulgar