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Thett/ bossy Tournament R1 (ASOIAF) R + L = J is most likely the correct theory.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/15/2015 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 10 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 758 times Debate No: 83964
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (20)
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This is Round One for Thett and bossy (shabshoral)'s tournament.

ASOIAF= A Song Of Ice And Fire
R + L = J Theory = The popular theory that Jon Snow's Parent's are Rhaegar Targaryen, and Lyanna Stark.
GOT= Game Of Thrones

This debate is a fan theory debate about a fictional world known to msot as the "Game Of Thrones". The book series is known as ASOIAF. Both debaters should be encouraged to follow logic from the book series, as opposed to the show. Even though most important details in the story and the book are closely related, there are also vast differences in the story lines in several spots throughout the show. While these differences may not effect the debate, It is easier and more clerical for both debater's to stick to the original source for any information.

While I as pro have the burden to prove my theory correct to the best of my ability, I think it should be encouraged that Con counters this theory with another more logical theory, or shows substantial holes in Pro's theory. This is because this is a nothing more than a theory, and certain evidences lead up to person's gaining these theories, but these evidences aren't inherent proofs, thus why they are called a theory to begin with.

Neither Thett3, nor bossy, set up clear definitive rules in their thread, so I am posing this debate as a 4 round debate, with the first round for acceptance. Character limit is 10,000, though hopefully all of that won't need to be used in each round for the sake of our readers. Voting period will last two weeks, which should give us ample time to advertise the debate and open it up to voting. 72 Hour argue time, should give both debaters plenty of time to respond.

My opponent is encouraged to let me know of any issues with the things stated in round one prior to accepting this debate. I will begin the debate in Round One after my opponent accepts.

Good luck skeps, I look forward to a very fun debate!


Super happy fun times =D
Debate Round No. 1


I will be arguing in favor of the R+L=J theory being the most logical and accurate theory in regards to Jon Snow’s Parentage.

The Game of Thrones set’s scene in Winterfell, the northern territory of Westoros. Eddard Stark is the Warden of this territory, and is a major character in the first book. “Ned” (As he is commonly called among friends) has 5 natural born children between him and his wife Catlynn Stark, and a sixth bastard son called Jon Snow. Throughout the series, right from the beginning, the author makes no real connection to who the boy’s mother is. It is generally assumed that Ned had “cheated” (for lack of a better word) on his wife Catlynn during the war where he was off with King Robert usurping the Iron Throne from the Targaryen’s. Now in the ASOIAF series, it is not commonly frowned upon for a man to sleep with another women during his marriage. However in Ned’s case, it is cause for a lot of strife in his relationship, as it is un-befitting for Ned’s usual honor-bound attitude. More background will be provided in further points.

Argument 1: What was Eddard’s promise?

Eddard recalls his sister dying "in a bed of blood," where he made her an unknown promise just before she died. (1)

So this debate is a theory that Eddard Stark didn’t really “cheat” on his wife Catlynn. This theory is that Eddard Stark covered for something potentially far more serious, out of love for his sister Lyanna. It is mentioned a couple time in the book’s that Lyanna asked Ned to “promise her” something. What this promise was exactly is never stated in the books, and Ned is usually quick to change the subject.

Lyanna Stark’s death was the primary reason Robert’s Rebellion to Usurp the Iron Throne, and she is said to have been killed by Rhaegar Targaryen. Rhaegar was the beautiful son of the mad king Arys Targaryen, and was said to have a deep love Lyanna (even going as far as to name her the queen of love and beauty over his own wife Elia Martell). They even ran off together (in the books it was stated by bias opinions of certain characters that she was ‘kidnapped’, but I digress), which is when Ned has apparently found his sister dying. The cause of her death is never clarified, but is said that she died on a flower of her own blood. This theory assumes that she died in child birth, having conceived Jon Snow with Rhaegar. Meaning that Daenery’s is not truly the last living Targaryen. Ned knows that simply having Targaryen blood is enough to mean your death. In fact, Tywin Lannister had ordered Gregor Clegane to kill Elia (Rhaegar’s Dornish wife) and their new-born babes upon seizing the Iron throne. This leads to a very interesting plot point in the theory. When Ned leaves to kings landing to serve as Robert’s Hand, he doesn’t do a whole lot. In fact one of the only major thing’s he tries advocating against is an attempt prevent Robert sending an assassin to kill Daenerys Targaryen, when he receives word of her location in Eastoros. Ned having a simple “moral objection” to this killing would be one thing. He claims he had a similar moral objection when Elia and the Targaryen babes were murdered originally. But when this originally happened, Ned never went as far as to defy his friend, and king. However as soon as he becomes hand, the one singular issue of killing Daenarys is going to cause him to betray his honor and pledge to his king? He went as far to make an emotional outburst in front of the council, and defy Robert. This type of outburst would have resulted in Ned losing his head in most circumstances. However, Robert’s long lasting friendship with Ned prevailed Robert’s decision in the end to side with Ned. Let’s talk for a moment, about Eddard’s motivation for his outburst however. We are talking about a guy that is so honor-bound, that he is willing to be-head someone in front of his children in order to prove that honor is more important than moral’s makes me question if he indeed did have external motivation.

If Rhaegar and Lyanna were really the parents of Jon Snow, then it would be hypocritical for Eddard to allow the killing of another Targaryen heir. If this theory is correct, then Ned’s over-reaction to Robert’s decision makes sense on more of a person level than simply a moral dis-agreement. Ned’s honor to his family name and beloved sister prevails his honor to his king. In fact when you think about the entirety of this chapter, it makes so much more sense in context to the R+L=J theory. George R.R. Martin doesn’t seemingly put many filler chapters in that do not serve a purpose. And this plot point of Ed losing, and regaining his position as Hand of the king makes much more sense than a simple character building chapter, if it is in fact a clue to something more impacting. Keep in mind, despite Ned’s objection to the killing of Daenerys, Varys reports that the “I’m afraid that bird has already flown”. In other words, the entirety of Ned’s objection served no real purpose in the book as it didn’t prevent Daenery’s assassination attempt. I don’t think Martin would include such a big event in his story if it didn’t have meaningful impact. And that meaningful impact is Ned’s personal connection to a Targaryen heir.

Sub A: Eddark’s Honor VS family

Now the above point might draw the argument that “If Ned is so honorable, why would harbor a Targaryen fugitive, which would clearly be a major crime in the eyes of King Robert? While Ned is honorable, he clearly struggles with honor vs family in the book. This internal dispute is noted from the very beginning scenes when Ned struggles to move his family into king’s Landing, away from everything they knew and loved in Winterfell. It continues when he delves into his private investigation into Bran’s “fall” and sub-sequent assassination attempt, and rolls over into his protection of Arya when she attacked Joffrey. We see it all the way to the end, when Ned must choose between violating his honor by lying and admitting to making traitorous accusations against Queen Cercei or sticking with his pride and dying honorably. In the end, Varys convinces Eddard to that for his children’s sake, the lie is worth it. This point’s purpose isn’t to de-emphasize that his honor is solid (it clearly isn’t told that way in the series), just that his priorities lie with his family and friends (Jon Arryn, etc). This to me proves two things. The first being that he isn’t lacking in honor enough to really cheat on his wife, and two that he is capable of lying in order to protect his sister’s final wishes out of love.

Argument 2: “The Butler did it” clues, subtle confirmation from the author

George may have accidentally confirmed many fan theories. In a Edinburgh International Book conference, a fan asked Martin if he would change plot points in the book based on Fan’s guessing thing in the books. Martin says this:

I’ve been planting all these clues that the butler did it, then you’re halfway through a series and suddenly thousands of people have figured out that the butler did it, and then you say the chambermaid did it? No, you can’t do that. (2)

And in another YouTube interview, was asked the same question and gave a pretty similar answer. Martin says changing plot facts because readers may have guessed an outcome would leave his story a mess. Now, while the above quote only proves that some fans may have guessed some things in his books, it definitely doesn’t confirm which theory he is talking about. When Martin says ‘Thousands of people have figured out’, he could just be speaking hypothetically. There are many of theories out there, some that contradict the R + L theory, or some that suggest different parents (This wet-nurse Wylla, or Ashara Dayne, etc), But to say thousands of people may have guessed a theory, to me indicates that the R+L=J theory is the one he was talking about. It is by far the biggest theory in terms ASOIAF series go. It is easily the most researched, and most talked about theory regarding Jon Snow’s parentage. Out of all the fan theories on the ASOIAF series, it is most talked about, popular theory. Could he have been talking about something else? Sure. Is it likely he was? Probably not. Even the name of the saga “A Song of Ice and Fire” is near damning evidence. The story builds on Daenerys’s Journey to take over a corrupted Westoros, and emphasizes a bastard boy whose life is in service to the wall. Daenerys, Fire. Jon, Ice. The Targaryen girl bathed in fire and the mother of dragons. Her Targaryen relative Jon Snow shrouded by Ice, snow, and cold his entire life. Fire and Ice, it almost makes sense like a puzzle fitting together nicely that these two characters are going to be major contributors to the overarching theme Martin is trying to accomplish.

To conclude, there are vasts amount of evidences in support of this theory. I am assuming my opponent knows most of these because he accepted the debate with relative knowledge of its theme. I didn’t want to spam this debate with repeated info from other forums. But I want emphasize that the evidence alone isn’t what makes this theory the most likely to be accurate. It’s because if it isn’t accurate, certain parts of the story don’t make a whole lot of sense. Good luck Ser Skeps, this should be a fun debate!






R + L = D

I will be arguing that the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar, whom Ned Stark swore to protect from Robert Baratheon, was in fact Danaerys Targaryen, and that John Snow was the son of his brother Brandon Stark and the famed Dornish beauty Ashara Dayne.

At the heart of this, anyone who believes that Danaerys is the sister of Viserys does so on the sole word of Viserys. Anyone else who could verify the story is long dead, and there is considerable evidence that Viserys lied about Danaerys's childhood. Let's see what Daenerys remembers of her early life:

1. A big house with:
a. A red door
b. Carved wooden beams
c. A lemontree outside

2. Smells of:
a. Hot sickness
b. Perfume

Now, Viserys told Dany that they lived in Braavos during her childhood, which does NOT jive with what memories Dany has of growing up. The first problem is the lemon tree, which absolutely cannot grow in cold, damp Braavos, as is explicitly mentioned in the books:

“Seven hells, this place is damp,” she heard her guard complain. “I’m chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?”

“Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis,” the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. “I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King’s Landing, fool. Can’t you read a bloody map?”

The wooden beams are a problem, as wood is extremely hard to come by in Braavos, being reserved for use in shipbuilding due to its high cos. Braavos is described by Arya as being 'all stone':

"There's no more wood." Dareon had paid the innkeep double for a room with a hearth, but none of them had realized that wood would be so costly here. Trees did not grow on Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty. Nor would the Braavosi cut the pines that covered the outlying islands around their great lagoon and acted as windbreaks to shield them from storms. Instead, firewood was brought in by barge, up the rivers and across the lagoon."

The smell of perfume is also problematic, as Braavos is always described as smelling very strongly of brine and fish, yet Dany never mentions this.

The house with the red door represents an ideal home to Dany, being a simple, welcoming place where she runs through fields of grass barefoot. This does not sound like Braavos at all, which is consistently described as a cold, grey, rainy, dreary, uninviting city of slick cobblestones, canals, mudflats and salt spray. If Dany had lived in Braavos, one would think that at least some of those aspects would be in her memory. Instead, we have a picture that just doesn't fit in to Braavos in any way, shape or form.

So, why would Viserys lie? Because, if Daenerys is his younger sister, she has much more control over her, he being the clear heir to the throne. If she is his aunt, and the daughter of the man who was next in line (his older brother) there is a much bigger problem when it comes to his own claim to the throne.

Danaerys is also told by Quaithe to 'Remember the Undying. Remember who you are.' A clear sign that she is mistaken about her own identity, as evinced by Viserys's lies. And, what vision was Danaerys treated to in the House of the Undying? One in which Rhaegar and Elia discuss his need to birth a third child, while he seems to stare straight at her.

"Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”

“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way."

Prophecy-obsessed Maester Aemon also believes that Daenerys is the 'third head of the dragon', as his deathbed laments reveal:

"Once he woke up weeping. "The dragon must have three heads," he wailed, "but I am too old and frail to be one of them. I should be with her, showing her the way, but my body has betrayed me.""

What also leads credence to this theory is Ned Stark's guilt in the months leading up to his death. The main conflict, at this time, is his disagreement with Robert over sending assassins after Danaerys. Ned in absolutely vehement about not following through with this, even abandoning Robert, whom he thought was in mortal danger, when the king refused to reconsider. During this time, he is haunted constantly by dreams of broken promises to Lyanna. It makes perfect sense that the promise which he felt that he was breaking was one to protect Danaerys from Robert, and it also explains his all-consuming need to stop the assassination plan.

"When he slept, he dreamed: dark, disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises."

All in all, I think that the facts of the case point to Dany being the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I will address my opponent's argument and put forward an alternative case forward for John's lineage in my next round.
Debate Round No. 2


So this is great, me and my opponent seem to agree on the R + L aspect of the debate. That part is the biggest issue that could probably come up in this type of a debate, so the rest of this should be fairly simple. So the only issue to debate now is whether it makes more sense that it = D, or = J.

There is no valid objection to Dany's parentage

The entire premise for coming up with the R+ L theory, was to put a line of objection to Jon's parents being Ned and this mysterious "Wylla". There has always been contention among the ASOIAF fan base around Ned's motivation for cheating, the hesitancy in speaking about the act even to his "close" friend in Robert Baratheon, etc. Many people seemed to assume Ned lied about his cheating, or in the very least was hiding something due to his overall dodgy behavior on the subject. On top of that, their was always the motivational reasons linking Ned with his "honor". Point being, Jon's parents (or at least his mother) was left as an open and ambiguous mystery for the readers to figure out. Such is not the case with Dany. It is common knowledge in the seven kingdoms that her parents were Rhaella and Arys II. My opponent seems to jump into the case that was originally meant to support Jon Snow's parenthood infallibility, but uses it to paint a picture on a very clear parenthood of Dany. My opponent claims that Dany's whole parenthood is based on the sole word of Viserys, which is entirely untrue and un-supported, Further to dismiss Jon's parentage being between Brandon and Ashara is completely not back with any supported theory evidence. Until my opponent explains this point in further detail, I am forced to dismiss this.

Environment of Braavos

My opponent makes a very classic mistake in assuming things about the environment of a territory. For example, just because wood doesn't grow in many places in Braavos, doesn't mean it does not exist entirely in Braavos. IE, it is not impossible for a young girl and boy with royal blood to have had the resources to live in a place with a lemon tree, or wood in general. While resources in Braavos are limited in land development, it does not mean these things don't exist at all. My opponent seems to dis-regard the idea that trade exists at all. In fact as one of the richest places in the seven kingdoms, most of Braavos large fleet engages in the economical activities of resource gathering, transportation etc. To say that wood doesn't exist in Braavos is like saying that all dornish households are made pf pure sand sand sandstone. The statement is inaccurate and far too big of an underview of the entire territory. This aside, wood does exist in Braavos near the exterior of the island.

"Firewood is brought in by barge, while pines on the islands surrounding the city are left to act as windbreaks to protect the harbors, and are illegal to cut down. There is only one channel large and deep enough to accommodate ocean-going ships."(1)

My opponent then qoutes a guard complaining about the weather in Braavos. While the whether in Braavos does seem to lean towards the colder side, sun makes it way there just like anywhere else.

"The location of the city affects its weather. The weather mainly consists of fog, rain and freezing rain. On the occasion, it is clear and sunny."(1)

It is not impossible for Dany to have seen a lemon tree in Braavos.

Finally, my opponent describes the smell. While many areas of the city may smell of brine and fish, it is an over-statement to apply that smell everywhere. Does Arya smell that in the temple of the many faced God constantly? A person's own house can smell differently based on the owners own lifestyle. Perfume can outweigh the smell of fish, even then.

Timeline issues

Another issue with Dany being the daughter is the timeline. Rhaella had conceived Dany during Robert's Rebellion. She was sent to Dragonstone for safety during the sack of King's Landing. The whole reason Rhaella died was during childbirth on Dragonstone during a big storm (the reason they call her Daenerys Stormborn Targaryen). (2) It is known that Dany was sent to Braavos from Dragonstone. If Dany was the daughter of Lyanna and Rhaeger, where, when and how did she get to Dragonstone? How does Skeps explain Rhaella's death? How did Lyanna make it to Dragonstone, then back to the Tower of Joy in the period of like a month after the sack of King's Landing, the battle of the Trident, and the winning of Robert;s rebellion? There are so many holes in this story, and plot points left un-explained if R + L = D, that even entertaining the notion of it is silly. At least until my opponent can answer some of these other questions.


Me and skeps both seem to agree that Ned had a motive to prevent the council and King Robert from sending an assassin to kill Dany. What we don't agree on is the reason. To me, as stated in round 2, it demonstrated the hypocrisy in the notion of Harboring a Targaryen bloodline in Jon, where to my opponent it is because Dany is his own sisters child. Let's weigh these motives though, Jon Snow is someone Ned has raised into man-hood and has deeply become fond of. Reasons aside from protecting the honor of his sister Lyanna, Ned also has a personal attachment to Jon.

As far as the third head of the dragon goes, I was always under the impression that they were Aegon, Dany, with the third head unaccounted for (I think it's Jon Snow based on R2 arguments).

To Conclude, my opponent hasn't painted reasonable doubt to Dany's parent's being Rhaella and Aerys. No one in Estoros or anywhere in the seven kingdoms seems to recognize or ackowledge that this should be in question. This is possibly the biggest point my opponent will need to explain in the coming round. the second largest thing is my opponent's mis-representation of Braavos as a whole being evidence that Dany wasn't raised there. Where was she raised, and how? What does where she was raised if not in Braavos do to prove her lineage? I await my opponent's response.




Seeing as we agree on the point of there being a child, my job is to counter my opponent's argument that it is Jon. His entire argument about Ned's reaction to the assasination plot applies to Daenerys moreso than it does to Jon; if Daenerys is actually the daughter of his sister, instead of being loosely related towards her, then the episode is more traumatic. As I have pointed out, the fact that Ned's haunting feelings of betrayal coincide with this confrontation of Robert are also explained much more clearly if Daenerys is the child. Jon is safe at the Wall, and the dreams intensify as Ned is in King's landing trying to convince Robert to abandon his plans.

Consider this:

'Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert's talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.'

As Ned struggles with Robert's brutality, he mentally links the murder of Rhaegar's son, Lyanna's pleading, and Robert's plan to kill Daenerys.

Also, there are signs that Jon is, in fact, not the son of Ned or Rhaegar. These come at two relatively early points.

During one, Ned thinks to himself that 'for the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen.' It is highly unlikely that, had Ned been raising Rhaegar's child, he would forget about him for years at a time. But if he had helped spirit that child across the narrow sea? That is much more likely.

Then, there was the conversation with Catelyn.

'They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. 'Never ask me about Jon,' he said, cold as ice. 'He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady.' She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne’s name was never heard in Winterfell again.'

This is incredibly revealing, because Catelyn never asks about Jon. She asks about rumors of an affair with Ashara Dayne, and Ned confirms by his response that there was a connection between Ashara Dayne and Jon. And this segues into my exploration of Jon's ancestry: A + B = J

What do we know about these players? Well, we know that Ashara Dayne 'looked to Stark' and was dishonored during the Tourney at Harrenhal, as related by Barristan Selmy:

'Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara’s smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter ...

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.'

Ashara Dayne looked to Stark. This meant either Ned or Brandon, and considering Ned's honor, and Brandon's reputation as a womanizer, it is most likely the latter. Especially considering the fact that Howland Reed shared Ned's tent during the Tourney. So, what we know is that a Stark, most likely Brandon, deflowered Lady Ashara Dayne. That she became pregnant and that the child was stillborn. And that she killed herself after Ned Stark returned her family sword.

We hear from Edric Dayne, who was nicknamed Ned after Eddard Stark, that his wetnurse Wylla was the mother of Jon Snow. Edric relates that he admired Ned and wanted to speak to him at the Hand's Tourney, but didn't know what to say. Now, if the stories are true (Ned deflowered and disgraced Ashara and killed her brother) it makes no sense for House Starfall to admire Ned, and to bring up the heir to their house with any sort of sense of respect for him. Unless Ned did something very important for House Starfall, something which would also explain Lady Dayne's suicide. And, if my theory is correct, he did.

If Lady Ashara had a son by the deceased Brandon Stark who lived, removing him from Starfall and taking him on as his own bastard would save Starfall a LOT of trouble (titles pass through the female line in Dorne) while also simplifying matters in Winterfall. This is doubly true if Ashara and Brandon were secretly married, either on the Isle of Faces during the Harrenhal Tourney or later on. A male heir born from that union would be both heir to Winterfell and Starfall, robbing Edric of his birthright and causing a crisis between Riverrun and Winterfell. The alliance between the Riverlands, the Vale, and the North were secured by Hoster Tully's marriage of his daughters to those families. The entire alliance would be severely compromised if Hoster Tully found out that he had married his daughter to a man whose older brother had a living, legitimate son, as their children would not be the Lords of Winterfell but an auxiliary line.

So, what happened was this: Ned and company kill the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, take Dany from a dying Lyanna while promising to protect her, and head to Starfall on the pretense of returning Dawn to Ashara Dayne. Once there, he does an exchange: Daenerys for Jon. The Daynes, with their strong connections to what remains of the Targaryen political apparatus, smuggle Danaerys out of the country and to Viserys, who lies to her about her past in order to shore up his own claims to the throne and then parades her about as his sister. Dany maintains puzzling memories of growing up around lemon trees and wooden beams (Dorne). Edric's claim to Starfall is secured, and he is fed the lie that Jon Snow was his milkbrother in order to erase suspicion. Ashara, devasted by the loss of her brother, her lover at the hands of Aerys, and now her son (the last thing she has to remember Brandon by) kills herself. Without this context, the death of Ashara simply does not make sense. Neither does the high regard which the house holds Ned in, who reputedly dishonored the famously beautiful Ashara and then drove her to suicide by killing the house's most prodigal son.
Debate Round No. 3


It is now the final round in the debate, and my opponent STILL has not offered a reason why anyone would doubt Dany's parents are actually Rhaella and Aerys II Targaryen. It is not enough to simply make a claim that Dany's parents are someone else if you have yet to cast doubt on the understanding of her current parents. If my opponent cannot dis-prove that Aerys and Rhaella are her father, then the rest of the case is meaningless! Why would the mad king have ever had cause to lie about impregnating Rhaella? If Rhaella didn't die during a storm giving birth to Dany, how indeed did she die? My opponent absolutely NEEDS to answer this in the final round, otherwise his theory is flawed at step A.

Timeline issues

This was never refuted. To re-iterate this point, let get specific. The sack of King's Landing occurs in the beginning of 281 AL. (1) Right after Rhaeger is killed, Aerys sends his pregnant wife Rhaella with Viserys to Dragonstone (which is why neither were in the city when the sack occurred).

  • On Dragonstone, Queen Rhaella dies giving birth to her daughter, Daenerys, a several months after her father died in the fall of King's Landing. During her birth a great storm wrecks what is left of the Targaryen fleet anchored at Dragonstone, for which she is named "Daenerys Stormborn". The rebels lack their own fleet so it takes some time to assemble one to assault the island. Eventually, when they realize the rebels will arrive soon, Targaryen loyalists smuggle the Targaryen heirs Viserys and Daenerys to safety in the Free Cities, where they remain in exile. (1)
Under my opponents own arguments, he claims that Viserys was never even on Dragonstone. Where did he send Viserys if not with his mother to Dragonstone like he claimed? Who was Rhaella's child?

In Ned's dream in "A Game of Thrones" when talking to the kingsguard protecting the Tower of Joy, this is said in the brief conversation prior to the skirmish:

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

In the conversation with Aerys II own Kingsguard it is even confirmed that Viserys went to Dragonstone with his mother. But that's not even the kicker with this point.

"The Raid on the Tower of Joy took place at the Tower of Joy in Dorne at the the end of Robert's Rebellion. "

The raid took place after Robert's Rebellion AFTER viserys was already gone. How did Ned or Edric, or anyone for that matter get ahold of Viserys? Where did it happen, and why did Rhaella not take issue with this?

The timeline has so many holes its easy to lose count of them all.


Timeline aside, the motivation points are still what get me the most. What Aerys and Rhaella's motives for lying to the world about Rhaella's conception, her travel to Dragonstone? Why did Viserys need to feed lies to Dany to secure his claim on the throne? He was already the male firstborn heir. THE CLAIM TO THE THRONES IS ALREADY HIS! The Targaryen's are not dornish, they like the rest of the seven kingdoms honor the male King's claim over the Queen's in official ruling. Viserys would have been king no matter what, especially as the elder. This is why he is PRINCE viserys. Claiming Jon Snow's parents are Ashara Dayne and Ned or Brandon at least makes far sense than R + L = D.

I am not going to pick apart the Ashara Dayne theory because my opponent agrees that R + L = Something. If he cannot provide an alibi for Rhaella and Viserys location during the sack of King's Landing then every bit of the R + L logic applies to Jon, way more so than the Ashara Dayne theory goes.

My opponent uses Ned's quote that he had not thought of Rhaegar for many years as evidence that Jon is not Rhaegar's son. As if it requires being heavily reminded about the bastard's father in order to raise Jon? This makes no sense.

My opponent has dropped the case on Braavos having changing whether patterns, and having access to wood and lemon-trees. These point's go uncontested, meaning that there is no reason to doubt that they (The Targaryen children) would be in Braavos.

To conclude this debate, my opponent has some serious explaining to do on providing information that is very necessary in order to even entertain the theory of Dany being Lyanna's child. There is so much that simply does not make sense if they are her parents, besides the fact that the timeline is literally impossible. I thank skeps once again for what was a very interesting debate, and wish him the best of luck in the voting period.



The argument about timelines is a strawman; never did I argue that Dany was at Dragonstone, or that Viserys was not. My argument was that Dany was smuggled out of Dorne to Viserys in Essos, after having had enough time to develop childhood memories of lemontrees and the house with the red door. This was made explicit in my last round. 'The Daynes, with their strong connections to what remains of the Targaryen political apparatus, smuggle Danaerys out of the country and to Viserys, who lies to her about her past in order to shore up his own claims to the throne and then parades her about as his sister.' Nowhere do I make the claim that Dany was smuggled to Dragonstone or that Viserys never went to Dragonstone, so this counterargument doesn't even address mine. I also never claimed that Rhaella lied about being pregnant or about Dany; Rhaella was long dead by the time Viserys began travelling the Free Cities with his purported 'sister'. As I pointed out in my first argument, the sole source of information on Dany's past has been Viserys; everyone else present is long since dead.

My opponent's refutations of the Braavos problems simply do not make a dent. I have quoted guards stationed in Braavos, and well traveled in Essos, discussing the fact that it is impossible for lemon trees to grow in Braavos. Not just complaining about the weather, actively mocking the very idea that a lemon tree can survive there as a foolish misconception. In the real world, lemon trees categorically cannot survive in a place which regularly experiences freezing rain; it would destroy the tree. The lemon tree remains a major stumbling block which my opponent has not explained away in the slightest, as does the fact that wood is explicitly described as being prohibitively expensive, to the point that the people of Braavos will burn dung in their fireplaces in order to preserve it. A house with giant wooden beams is incredibly unlikely. If my opponent had quoted text from the novels pointing out a place in Braavos where Danny's childhood memories could have fit in to the picture, he would have undermined this argument. If he had pointed out some strange, sunny, sheltered nook where lemon trees sprouted and somehow survived the freezing rain, where a serendipitous prevailing wind kept away the smells of the harbor while leaving the air hot, heavy, and perfumed, and where people built houses with immense carved beams despite costs for wood which were so prohibitively high that people thought twice about burning it for warmth, then I would concede defeat. But merely offering conjecture that such a place exists when all evidence points to the complete opposite conclusion is not a compelling argument.

When it comes to Viserys' claim, an argument only recently introduced, my opponent is wrong. If Dany were Rhaegar's daughter, she would have a claim to the throne as his only surving child, as Rhaegar was the crown prince. Females can inherit under the Targaryen line; that was the entire point of the Dance of the Dragons, in which Rhaenyra Targaryen was the expected heir to her fathers throne as per his will, but was supplanted by her half-brother Aegon II due to a Hightower-supported coup. At the end of the resulting civil war, her son Aegon III inherited the throne. Aegon III's eldest daughter, Daena, was also considered as a possible candidate for the Iron Throne, but was passed over because her long isolation in the Maidenvault under her brother Baelor's orders had left her without political allies.

I hold that there are significant enough problems with Viserys' relation of past events, combined with her visions in the House of the Undying and Quaithe's repeated warnings, to believe that Daenerys is not who she thinks she is. I also believe that there is enough substantial evidence to point to Jon being the son of Ashara Dayne and Brandon Stark, which makes Daenerys being the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna the logical conclusion to come to. Simply put, all of the pieces fit: Quaithe's warnings, the visions in the House of the Undying, the holes in Viserys's story when it lines up to Dany's memory, Ned Stark's crushing guilt over broken promises to Lyanna while Robert plotted to assasinate Daenerys, Lady Dayne's suicide, Ned's visit to Starfall, and Edric 'Ned' Dayne's attitude towards Ned Stark. I would not be surprised at all if, when we finally visit the lands of House Dayne in the books, there is a passing mention of a red door.
Debate Round No. 4
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Skepsikyma 9 months ago
Thanks for the debate, and thanks to everyone who voted.
Posted by RyuuKyuzo 9 months ago
Hmm. After reading this I am leaning Pro. I missed the voting period, but it looks like it wouldn't have mattered anyway.
Posted by TUF 9 months ago
I want a rematch lol. My mind is absolutely blown
Posted by TUF 9 months ago

Rhaella and Aerys*
Posted by TUF 9 months ago
I can't believe I am losing this lol. I've watched a ton of theory videos and most of them say the R + L = E is a stretch and far less likely the j. I guess the killer was that I didn't refute the A+B. But up until the last round my opponent hadn't discredited dany's commonly understood parenthood of rhaegar and lyanna so the point seemed like a waste of time
Posted by TUF 9 months ago
I can't believe I am losing this lol. I've watched a ton of theory videos and most of them say the R + L = E is a stretch and far less likely the j. I guess the killer was that I didn't refute the A+B. But up until the last round my opponent hadn't discredited dany's commonly understood parenthood of rhaegar and lyanna so the point seemed like a waste of time
Posted by whiteflame 9 months ago
Yeah, that's short for me...
Posted by spacetime 9 months ago
"Unfortunately, I don't have the time to give the lengthy explanation I was originally planning on working through, so I apologize for that"

*posts 3 part RFD*
Posted by whiteflame 9 months ago
RFD (Pt. 1):

Unfortunately, I don't have the time to give the lengthy explanation I was originally planning on working through, so I apologize for that. I'll still do what I can with the time I have, so I hope it's enough to satisfy both debaters.

So, we have two competing views as to who the parents were of Jon Snow and Danaerys. Pro's view is:

R+L=J, and

Con's view is:


It's pretty simple to analyze the first of these because both sides agree on the parentage. The only question is, which story makes the most sense with the fewest plot holes?

Pro's reasons for supporting the R+L=D story mainly have to do with Daenerys's memories and the motives of Viserys. The memory issue isn't exceptionally strong, since most of the points just claim that her memories would require an unlikely type of home and smells alien to Braavos. Neither of these points are particularly strong because the first only speaks to the expense of the building (which I agree would be high, but that's not a particularly strong reason why it couldn't be there) and the second, as Con mentions, doesn't cover smells generated indoors, which these could well be. The Viserys argument certainly presents a motive for Viserys to lie, though that only lends some credence to his reasons for doing it, and as Con states, doesn't explain the general view that Ae+Rh=D, which seems to be far more broadly believed and therefore not wholly under his control. Pro's response here introduces significant doubt into the case Con is making here, mainly because Con doesn't explain why the basic history is wrong.
Posted by whiteflame 9 months ago
(Pt. 2)

What does make me think twice is the lemon tree. While riches might account for the wooden home, they don't account for the survival of this particular type of tree, which Con explains would not have survived the freezing rain of Braavos. Admittedly, the scenario where such a tree is sheltered is possible, but it's starting to stretch the limits of the imagination, as Con points out in his final round. The potential for this situation to happen goes way down when we consider the presence of the lemon tree, and while I can certainly imagine a scenario in which a lemon tree is growing in Braavos, Pro doesn't spend much time explaining why the lemon tree is likely beyond a quote that says that Braavos is occasionally clear and sunny.

So there's room for doubt on both sides of this issue, but I haven't really gotten into the question of whether or not the other matches make sense. Con spends almost all of his R3 talking about the second pairing, using much of his space to explain that Ashara Dayne had a history with the Starks and that Eddard responded sharply to the use of her name, and associated it with Jon of his own accord. The rest of the story holds together rather well given Con's explanation of it, but this is really the crux of his point " that this conversation couldn't have happened if there was nothing going on here.

By comparison, I don't see much logical defense of Ae+Rh=D. I do see quotes that state general views of what happened, and as I've shown above, that's a hole in Con's argument, but the other timeline issues aren't particularly strong, since most of them assume that Con's case requires Viserys not have gone to Dragonstone (which he never assumed). The motive is there, as Con explains, based on the fact that Daenerys would have a stronger claim to the throne. So the motivation is there for Viserys to act.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by whiteflame 9 months ago
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Vote Placed by Mikal 9 months ago
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Vote Placed by Raisor 9 months ago
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