The Instigator
ScottyDouglas
Pro (for)
Winning
7 Points
The Contender
Mithol
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Thiest hold a more solid outlook than athiest

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
ScottyDouglas
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/30/2012 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,043 times Debate No: 23954
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (0)
Votes (1)

 

ScottyDouglas

Pro

Thank you for whoever accepts this debate! All gratitude to my opponent.
Rounds:
1. Agreement
2. Arguement/Questions
3. Rebuttal/Answers
4. Rebuttals
5. Rebuttal/Conclusion

Rules:
1. In this debate both opponents must give 10 questions to thier opponent to answer about the outlook of the opposition. All questions must be answered and/or explained.
2. Questions must consist of the overall outlook of the opposing side.
3. Debate must stay on topic.
4. Debate must remain in a respectful manner.

If you agree to the terms of the debate, PLZ feel free to accept. Thanks in advance.
Mithol

Con

Challenge accepted.
Debate Round No. 1
ScottyDouglas

Pro

Thanks to my opponent. May God Bless you, Sir, ma'am.

SOLID OUTLOOK on Theism and Atheism.

Three hypotheses are possible: self-existence (atheism), self-creation (pantheism) or creation by an external agency (theism).

Analyzing these three hypotheses, however, we find that, "differing so widely as they seem to do", they all "contain the same ultimate element. It is impossible to avoid making the assumption of self-existence somewhere", whether with regard to a part of the universe (atheism), the universe as a whole (pantheism), or an external creator (theism). Furthermore, the idea of self-existence is not merely inescapable but "rigorously inconceivable; and this holds true whatever be the nature of the object of which it is predicated". Therefore, atheism, pantheism and theism alike, despite "seeming to their adherents quite rational, turn out, when critically examined, to be literally unthinkable".

Bible miracles are philosophically possible - that is all I am saying.

My belief comes not from these advantages of theism as a whole but from Scripture, this is not a core belief of Christianity. So what are some of these practical things? It solves the problem of evil, it provides meaning to prayer, it aligns with our natural instincts about choice. The real reason, in my opinion, that most people are religious is that belief helps relieve general angst and the fear of death. But even when that fear is subued, some people just seem to be wired for religion or spiritual experiences.

Theism, in the broadest sense, is the belief that at least one deity exists. Theism (or natural theology), and the revelation I believe in, seem both of them pure matters of assertion. The fact - assumed without any attempt at justification by argument - that, in spite of the multitude of logical reasons for scepticism, we do know, truth and beauty. And when confronted with this there must be a God who can miraculously endow the irrational mind of man with truth and miracles. Some of the derived consequences are then given for the manner in which the Divine is in immanent and sustains the physical (and mental) worlds. Following these general principles, we look detail at the discrete degrees in creation, in a top-down approach where we start from the theistic principles, and derive details of spiritual, mental and physical levels of processes, along with their dynamic interrelations. This derivation is at the heart of theism.

Avantages of Theism:
1. Tools to explore inner self.
2. Ways to connect to others in your community.
3. Ways to connect to people in other communities (mission work, charity).
4. Weekly church is an opportunity to examine one's own morality.
5. A way of finding peace and joy.

Human beings are born with theism implanted into their brains - there can be no other explanation for EVERY culture on earth having theistic beliefs at some point in their histories. The fact is that there is a very real psychological need for spiritual fulfillment.

Everyone has a basic built-in sense of right and wrong -- another evidence of a designer who put it there (no nobody "developed" it themselves -- if so, there'd be many varying opinions of right and wrong), There is also a centre for worship in the brain, something you would expect a designer to do. As for what do you gain from theism -- well, those of us who've tried trusting in God have found that He exists and "rewards them who diligently seek Him".

What happens, though, when we examine the new atheists' own "reasonableness" and "internal coherence"?

When it comes to religious discussions, have you noticed that it is the atheists who are usually asking the questions?

"Atheism shows strength of mind, but only to a certain degree"

In view of its inability to evade assuming self-existence somewhere, "even that which is commonly regarded as the negation of all religion — even positive Atheism comes within the definition" of religion.

Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existance of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists. The claim of no knowledge, no faith or a complete rejection of theism.

"We seek rest in a struggle against some obstacles. And when we have overcome these, rest proves unbearable because of the boredom it produces...How hollow and full of garbage is the heart of man." He goes on to say "no one without faith has ever reached the point at which everyone constantly aims...only an infinite and immutable object – that is, God himself – can fill this infinite abyss."
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Failures in the practice of rational reasoning such as these are all too common among the New Atheists. They charge Christianity with being unreasoning or unreasonable, but too often they do so as they have done with slavery: use incomplete evidence or demonstrably invalid reasoning.

From my observations, it adds up to this: the new atheists' difficulty with valid, responsible reasoning is widespread and systemic. Far from being the defenders of reason, they are among the chief offenders against it. It's time we called them on that.
http://catholicexchange.com...

The primary criticism of atheism is that it rejects belief in God, for whose existence theist and deist critics believe there are well-established arguements. Atheists, however, regard the arguments for the existence of God as unconvincing or flawed.

Atheism has been criticized as a faith in itself, with some defining it as a belief in its own right, with a certainty about the falseness of religious beliefs that is comparable to the certainty about the unknown that is practiced by religions themselves.

For many years in the United States, atheists were not allowed to testify in court because it was believed that an atheist would have no reason to tell the truth.

It has also been considered that atheists might have a higher suicide rate than theists.

Suggestion that atheism has highly negative effects on the individuals after death: a point taken up by Pascal in Pascal's Wager.

Questions:
1. Is there any evidence that would ever make you a believer?
2. How would you define atheism?
3. If everyone completely passes out of existence when they die, what ultimate meaning has life?
4. Do you believe the world would be better off without Christianity?
5. Why does research, discovery, diplomacy, art, music, sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, or affectionate and caring relationships mean anything if it all ultimately comes to naught anyway?
6. Do you think that a society that is run by Christians or atheists would be safer? Why?
7. If we have no soul, why do we feel conscious of ourselves?
8. Without a personal Creator-God, how are you anything other than the coincidental, purposeless miscarriage of nature, spinning round and round on a lonely planet in the blackness of space for just a little while before you and all memory of your futile, pointless, meaningless life finally blinks out forever in the endless darkness?
9. Do you believe in free will?
10. Would you consider all Marxists to be Atheists?

http://www.thefullwiki.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.encyclopedia.com...
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org...
http://www.mb-soft.com...
Mithol

Con

Alright, first I'll rebut your points then I'll answer your questions and ask my own.

You have provided no definition of a solid outlook, for clarification purposes, I will provide my own. Outlook is defined as "A persons point of view or general attitude towards life" and I am assuming when you say solid outlook, you mean a well rounded, respectable view of life. So, on that definition I continue.

Saying the bible's miracles is philosophically possible means absolutely nothing. Everything is philosophically possible even the possibility of existence not being real, a popular Buddhist belief, but that does not make it so. I am simply stating that I find that argument to hold no weight.

I do not deny that theists can benefit from religion. You argue that fear of death becomes less so when you follow religion but that is not true. Fear of death and fear in general come from the survival instincts that have allowed humans to become the apex predator of the world. Having belief does not calm that fear but hinder it. It is good that we are afraid of things, it makes us more likely to enjoy what we have. Atheists obviously do not believe in an afterlife so in some circumstances, life is more cherished by someone who knows death is unavoidable and is aware of that and fears it.

Yes, theism is the belief in at least one deity but that deity is not the reason why people can experience things you say are the advantages of theism. We all have the tools to know who we are, connecting to a community is as simple as socializing and in fact many people come together because of common interests that have nothing to do with religion. You can get that networking and community from a wide range of things like sport, gaming, writing groups, work, neighbors as well as religion, it is in no way something that is only beneficial for theists.

You say there is no other explanation for religion other than it being naturally something we have. Actually, that isn't true at all. Look back to the ancient world, where most modern day religions come from and it's about power. The majority of great civilizations have kept their subjects in line through religion. Religion was power. The Mayans did it with sacrificing and horror stories, the Egyptians through pure worship of a god like figure and the Greeks and Romans who used religion not only as a form of oppression but also a show of strength and a way to mask (in the Romans case) a not so pleasant history. Religion has always been a tool for obedience.

I agree that some atheists are very critical of religion and have a certain ignorance towards it but that is not what this debate is about. It is purely about the ideals of atheism and theism and just because atheism is associated with a specific group of people, does not change how it should be viewed, that would be an appeal to association.

Atheism is not a faith, it is the absence of faith and yes, atheists couldn't testify in court in America, but for a long time neither could African American people and for a long time homosexuals weren't allowed in the army. You bring up suicide as well but even if what you were claiming was true, religion has in some circumstances found suicide peaceful and meaningful. In ancient times, monks would commit suicide once they had finished their journey in this plane and since you have no evidence to show that theists have lower suicide rates than atheists, I dismiss that argument as speculation.

Some advantages of Atheism:
1. A more independent outlook on life, guided by only oneself.
2. More valid and well rounded personal beliefs since there is no religious external influence e.g. Homosexuality.
3. More chance of leading, rather than being led.
4. The ability to be more open minded, without worrying about offending any deity.
5. Freedom of choice
6. Finding peace and joy within yourself, not through an external source.

Answers to your questions:

1. I am Buddhist. I doubt all things that do not make sense to me. Believing in a higher being makes no sense to me, therefore I doubt it.

2. Atheism is the belief that there is no god, no higher being and there never will be. Atheism is a belief that highly values science and what can be seen and understood, I think in some circumstances atheism can even be instilled in people because of a fear of the unknown but religion can do the same thing.

3. Life has no meaning. We create our own meaning internally within it. Our job is to procreate, keep living. That's it.

4. I have no problem with Christianity, I have a problem with ignorance, something that unfortunately has occurred in the name of Christianity. African Americans, philosophers, homosexuals, transsexuals, writers and scientists have all at some point been victim of this ignorance in the name of Christianity. I believe the world would be better off without ignorance.

5. Because you experience all those things at the time it happens, you feel joy and happiness and appreciation because its happening right then and there and that is why it is worth it.

6. I do not believe a society run by either would be safer. I do not believe society should be run by anyone.

7. Because those are electronic impulses and chemicals our brain makes to help us survive and make it so we don't all kill each other or ourselves. Science is the reason we feel this. (Personally I do however believe in the soul)

8. That's exactly what we are. I don't believe differently.

9. Yes, we are all individual people who can make choices. We are all accountable for everything we do as human beings and as the apex predators of the world. Humans HAVE to believe in free will to make the right choices.

10. No, I would not. That is a hasty generalization.

My own questions:

1. Why is it so important for theists to have a goal at the end of their lives. If that is the way you are, don't you forget to enjoy the journey?
2. Would you consider atheism to be detrimental to society?
3. Why do you believe?
4. What is your opinion on those who only believe religion because it is what they were taught?
5. Should America be run on such a Christian morality?
6. Do you believe in free will?
7. Do you agree that war is often started by religion?
8. Do you think religion promotes discrimination?
9. Is science important to human existence?
10. Why should any religion be favored over another, or shouldn't they?
Debate Round No. 2
ScottyDouglas

Pro

I would like to thank Mithol for his comments and wise words. It was very interesting. Thanks.

"A persons point of view or general attitude towards life" and I am assuming when you say solid outlook, you mean a well rounded, respectable view of life."

Agreed! That is a reasonable defintion of the resolution! I am new at this my apologies.

I like to get right down to it and answer my opponents questions and rebuttal his remarks.

In todays society we have a feel of liberation about it. We see kids and grown-ups doing whatever they please. Parents do not even discipline thier own children. They can not it is against the law it seems. We kill our babies. We have sex with whatever we feel like and in any manner we feel. I do not deny man's desire to do the things. Though a empty desire does not make it have any virtue whatsoever. People did use to leave thier doors unlocked all day, not today and we see nothing wrong with this. Todays society and thinkers that rebel against what has been a rock for so many generations is a sign of man destroying his ownself.

Answers to Questions:
1. I do not understand why you should not have a goal by the end of your life. But the goal of the afterlife is a reward not as important as you portray. The important thing for a theist is to find that personnel relationship with their creator and do His will. You should never forget the journey. You should cherish your life because it is short.
2. By the whole, I do not. The everyday atheist just trying to live their life in peace and comfort is everyone's right. Though my problem is the atheist that preach and bark their proaganda and lead people away from Christ. They speak about things spiritually the have no inkling of. If they did have a idea of what they was doing they would not do it. Because a person has ignored or refused the will of Christ on their hearts, can not give them rights to go out and preacher it is non-sense. With many that feel the same as I have, is it coindence or illusions?
3. I believe because I had the Holy Ghost come upon me. I still to this day experience it. The things I have seen from both God and the devil. My want to be as I feel is good and right and the impossibility to do it. I can not be righteous even though I know what it takes to do it.
4. I think they need to stick with it if it has lead them to Jesus. If they do it to be 'in' or to politically correct, then they need to step back and search that for themselves. You must have a willing heart and be able to believe. Nothing can change you but yourself first.
5. Yes. The actual Biblical New Testament teachings, I do not see why it should not?
6. Yes I do believe in free will. We are displaying it here.
7. I believe many wars have had religious people involved in them. I do not think that most of the wars in history is because of religion. It is because of greed, money, resources, and land. Does spiritual forces influence them? That is another matter.
8. We are not differing on religion. I am not religious. I do not believe in religious dogma. The Bible never said to create such institutions. I have faith, that is all I will claim. I believe in the Bible. So by faith and the Bible we should not discriminate on anyone. Who can you pass the 'word' too by discriminating? This has been the case but it is not Biblical.
9. I guess it would be if you only are concerned about physical means. But I am not so I suggest people take more interest in the spirit. It is reasonable to use both.
10. I think that people should practice what they preach and do what their scriptures say. They believe them. I think every religion feels thiers is the right one. I do. So only God will reveal that, or lack there of. Also I will point out the Bible did write many things down hundreds to thousands of years before they took place, that mite be a indication that they are right.

Saying the Bible miracles are possible most certainly means something, it means they are possible and not possible to verify or deny. I concede to my opponents view and personnel right to view this possibility as not being physically verified by himself.

Everyone fears death or we would not have a desire to survive. People in and out of religions find comfort from knowing they will die and accept that. Though the point was many in religions find it easier to find that comfort because of theism. I am sure there are cases you refer to as hindering that comfort but it is not in those that have Christ. We must realize that many who claim to be christians are not. They use this title because of the influence of the christian in this country. What dinomination founded this country? Did the men who founded it hinder it?

Many people can as you said use many tools to socialize and interact. Though the point in my reason was church is for theist to communicate about their own beliefs. Witnessing gives theist a reason to go out of thier way for others. It gives ways to find new people to talk too. We agree there are many ways to do this. But why is this way not suitable?
My opponents asserts that religions in a whole are about power and dominance. I would ask proof of that claim. In fact the Bible itself says peace and love, this is the opposite of power and dominance.

Some advantages of Atheism:
1. A more independent outlook on life, guided by only oneself.
So where is oneself guiding to?
2. More valid and well rounded personal beliefs since there is no religious external influence e.g. Homosexuality.
I will stick with belief in virtue. We have seen man's history of beliefs are death and destruction. These are not the same as the acient texts. People do not live by those text if they did murder and death would not happen.
3. More chance of leading, rather than being led.
So now we need to be rebels against any and everything? We should not be lead? Our own personnel feelings should rule?
4. The ability to be more open minded, without worrying about offending any deity.
I fail to see how this good? Should we have any law or order?
5. Freedom of choice
Who does not have this one? Who forces Christianity?
6. Finding peace and joy within yourself, not through an external source.
I doubt you have much peace and joy worrying about if God does or does not exist. You need to make a point why it is better to assume self sufficiant means over external.

My opponent took some good viewpoints in this round. I thank Him.

I will point out to end, that Theism is a faith. We down play the role it plays in peoples everyday life. If people who use thier brand of theism correctly then peace and comfort will come. This can not be denied. My opponent has failed to show how thousands of years of believers that were faithful are diminished by todays atheism. How modern atheism has become a rock to stand on. After thousands of years of people living and dying for this belief in God. I can not see were my opponent made any claim that theism is not important inside society. This confronting thousands of years of dilligent faithful believers.
Mithol

Con

Mithol forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
ScottyDouglas

Pro

My opponent seemed to not want to respond last round. That concerns me about how firm he is in his beliefs. I still like the debate so I would like to answer some of his questions and clarify my points so far.

My opponent stated in round 2 that:
"Saying the bible's miracles is philosophically possible means absolutely nothing. Everything is philosophically possible even the possibility of existence not being real, a popular Buddhist belief, but that does not make it so. I am simply stating that I find that argument to hold no weight."

I would like to say, I think that the possiblity of it, maybe being true, is signifiant. And if you believe in everything and nothing then that is merely being lukewarm. You would go too either side if it showed you something and in that you are acceptable to anything. And you are not acceptable to God cause your faith and trust is not in Him.

My opponent also sayed in Round 2 that,"Fear of death and fear in general come from the survival instincts that have allowed humans to become the apex predator of the world."

Logically we need to see that the earth has many predators in the world and man is not the biggest or strongest. We are the most intelligent, because of this we rule over everything. There is a well established saying and it goes,"Top of the food chain." In this statement shows that all through the animal kingdom is animals ruling over others and man ruling over them all, it makes logical since that man would be ruled over too.

My opponents point of view is looking to be unlogical to me. He continues,"The majority of great civilizations have kept their subjects in line through religion. Religion was power. The Mayans did it with sacrificing and horror stories, the Egyptians through pure worship of a god like figure and the Greeks and Romans who used religion not only as a form of oppression but also a show of strength and a way to mask (in the Romans case) a not so pleasant history."

Though I do not understand because none of These religions were Biblical Christian. The name of anything becomes tarnished if everyone uses it and acts and behaves in any fashion they choose. It is easy to see a true christian trying to work the word of God and actually cares for your soul.

He concludes with,"It is purely about the ideals of atheism and theism and just because atheism is associated with a specific group of people, does not change how it should be viewed, that would be an appeal to association. Atheism is not a faith, it is the absence of faith."

I truely do not understand the ideals of my opponents atheism. I did not know atheism had ideals in the first place, I though it was belief in nothing. My opponent should provide us with these ideals.

I do thank my oppoent and hope He responds.
Mithol

Con

Mithol forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
ScottyDouglas

Pro

My opponent has forfeited two rounds I request win by default.

Also none of my points were properly resolved.

Thanks to any that read and also my opponent.

Please Vote Pro!
Mithol

Con

Mithol forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
No comments have been posted on this debate.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Pink1234 4 years ago
Pink1234
ScottyDouglasMitholTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
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Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Con forfeited every round...