The Instigator
qwzx
Pro (for)
The Contender
KalleAnka123
Con (against)

Third-wave feminism is about misandry and has nothing to do with gender equality

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Debate Round Forfeited
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Time Remaining
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/15/2017 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 1,338 times Debate No: 100972
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (17)
Votes (0)

 

qwzx

Pro

This round is for acceptance
Round 2 is opening arguments
Round 3 is rebuttal
Round 4 is rebuttal to opponent's rebuttal
Round 5 is closing

Good Luck :)
KalleAnka123

Con

I'm down, bring it on.
Debate Round No. 1
qwzx

Pro

We have all heard from the left about how, feminism is all about gender equality and fairness. This definition that the left clings to is CORRECT....if we were still living in the 1950s. The third wave feminist movement has moved on from the basic principle that have guided the first and second waves. It has rather become a mean, spiteful, and man hating philosophy based off on not building up women but tearing down men. Not only do we see the replacement of peaceful protests with violet demonstrations such as the attack on women during Life-day. We currently see the result of such a transition in polls and figures done by many institutes.
Women are abandoning feminism at an alarming rate not because of their supposed sudden transformation into racist and sexist bigots. These polls asked women if they supported gender equality and if they supported the third wave feminist movement. 85% of people when asked in the polls said that they support gender equality HOWEVER, only 18% of people said that they supported the third wave feminist movement. If, feminism in truly about equality, WHY wouldn't these people give the same answer to both poll questions. These polls are not done by some unreliable alt-right sources such as Breitbart. These polls are done by Vox, Huffington Post, CNN, etc. Modern day feminism is hated so much because they say one thing but, do another.
Todays feminists are hypocrites in every sense o the word. My opponent would likely attempt to frame these debate as a force of good vs evil, equality vs oppression, etc. However, this is simply not the case as we see multiple deliberately misleading lies and actions done by third-wave feminism in an attempt to attack men and other women dissenters. We see their championship of the debunked gender pay-gap statistic and their completely unproven "1 in 4" rape culture data. Their magical concept of the modern day patriarchy conspiracy theories which deprives young women of the chance to improve on their failures and succeed in life. Feminism tells everyone that women are some oppressed class in America and demand laws to help women and punish all those who disagree with their agenda.
Feminists lobbys the government for more affirmative action policies at college campuses and high-income workplaces. In reality, women have 2 to 1 advantage over men when applying for STEM jobs and are graduating college with degrees with much more higher rates that the male counterparts. We see them demanding that women be entered into more STEM fields when, in reality women tend to avoid this type of expertise. The more developed a country is, the less percentage of women are willing to find a STEM job. Women tend to dominate fields of the arts and humanities not because there is some evil cult of straight white men secretly hypnotizing the women to be forced into homemaker positions but because of choice. This lack of women in the STEM field, combined with women's tendency to take more vacations, work less hours LEADS to the supposed "gender wage gap".
My opponent may perhaps mention gender stereotypes and how they affect women's choices however, my opponent must explain why the evil patriarchy would discourage women from physics BUT not veterinary sciences. The supposed "wage gap" couldn't even be called a wage gap, the statistic is calculated when you take the average annual income and do basic division. If you look by the hour for the same job, BOTH genders are equal in pay. My opponent might bring up some obscure statistic and certain stories where some companies violate this. However, simple economics can debunk this whole patriarchy and gender pay-gap argument. IF, corporations can get away with paying women less for equal amounts of work and labor, then why wouldn't companies just fire all their male employees and exclusively hire women.
ALL companies want to maximize income and profit, that is why we saw sweatshops hire exclusively women in the late 1800s. Perhaps you may note that sexism would prevent companies from hiring women however even that is not the case. The 1800s were a time of gender equality but that did not stop companies from hiring exclusively women in these sweatshops.
This modern-day movement cares little of fairness or equality of opportunity but focuses completely on equality of outcome. Now, my opponent might protest citing arguments about how these feminists are just "militant" feminists but, unfortunately that is not the case. The feminist leadership and figures around the world openly support these lies and advocate attacks on males. Emma Watson or Gloria Steinem are the new leaders and faces of this movement. These may be just "militant" feminists but these same "militant" feminists have hijacked feminism by taking control of the media and education systems. A movement is best defined by it's leaders and while not all of feminists are "militant", they are certainty led and encouraged by them. To attack men and delegitimize their status in society to bring about a "equality of outcome" does not bring about social progress but reverse sexism.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
http://www.pbs.org...
http://www.news.cornell.edu...
https://www.usnews.com...
http://www.dailytexanonline.com...
http://sundial.csun.edu...
https://www.usnews.com...
http://www.usatoday.com...
KalleAnka123

Con

Feminism and gender equality are one and the same, which makes the poll my opponent brings up in the first paragraph just as pointless as the dihydrogen monoxide poll hoaxes that have been pulled throughout the years.

My opponent then moves on to the misogynist classic, that the wage gap is a myth. There are many variations of this "fact", and my opponent brings up the three most popular ones.

Women generally work less than men/take more vacations than men:
Women sometimes get this condition called pregnancy, it furthers the human race and stuff. It often requires them to take some vacation time because it makes working very hard. And since men chronically refuse being stay at home dads, who do you think gets stuck with rearing the child at home? A woman can't get pregnant on her own so I must assume that unless rape was involved, a man shares the responsibility for the pregnancy. Calling this a valid cause to the wage gap is pure bs and is about as wrong as the wage gap itself.
Just as a side not, your own links proves this, the second US news one. It basically confirms my point that women aren't working because they are being relegated to housewifehood. How can you morally find that a justifiable reason for the wage gap? It is sexist through and through.

Women generally work lower paying jobs:
So, my opponent attacks this one from both sides, he claims women don't get into STEM jobs but also that they are favoured for them.
My opponent begins with talking of women not picking the correct educations for STEM jobs and of women graduating from universities/colleges at much higher rates than men but not getting into STEM jobs. He then answers his own question when it comes to why women pick the wrong educations for STEM jobs. Gender roles and stereo types.
He dismisses this notion quite readily by ridiculing it and blaming it all on "the evil patriarchy", which no feminist has ever claimed. Both men and women propagate stereo types. And then he asks the very ridiculous question "why the evil patriarchy would discourage women from physics BUT not veterinary sciences." Let's see, what does veterinary sciences include? Caring for fluffy little animals, nursing them to life and stuff. Hmmm, what stereo type about women involves caring and nursing for small helpless creatures?
He also claims that women graduate at higher rates than men, even though he has already claimed that women pick the wrong educations, which pretty much voids this argument. And he backs this up with quite the hilarious link about women getting more bachelor degrees than men. Mate, I would like you to try and get a STEM job with a bachelor, honestly. STEM jobs are master or higher, just posting a link doesn't make it relevant.
As to women getting an advantage when applying for STEM jobs, I agree. What my opponent chooses to ignore, even though he has himself already brought it up, is that the applicants are usually majority male. Women are different from men and can bring a different viewpoint on many matters, which is why companies do everything they can to get their hands on one. It is not that women are favoured, they are a rare commodity in the STEM labour market.
All in all, my opponent doesn't seem to understand that culture affects choice, women choose the arts and humanities, veterinary sciences and biology overall because our culture says it fits them the best. They are the more feminine subjects, unlike the very manly physics and chemistry and maths.

Why would companies not hire solely women if they get paid less?
SEXISM! Do I need to say more? Look up any list of worlds 100 richest people and tell me business isn't sexist.
Your quaint story about 1800s women getting jobs in sweatshops is great and all, but what women are looking for are board positions and CEO jobs, not sweatshops. They already have those.

Now even if we account for these reasons, women still get a lower hourly wage than men at the same jobs. The gap is often inflated for reasons such as the ones above, but it does nevertheless exist. If my opponent doubts this, I googled the very unbiased phrase "women wages" and have linked the top 5 results. I did not omit any results that didn't fit me, these are literally the first 5 results.

About the tearing down of men, feminism = gender equality, and since gender includes both men and women it aids both. In Sweden (I'm a Swede) feminists are for example working towards getting men the same amount of paid parental leave as women. I have a hard time seeing the "tearing down of men" there.
Honestly, this far my opponent has only brought up wages and education (and one mention of rape culture, whatever that is), and I don't see how the solutions to any of these problems include tearing down men. All you have to do is raise the salaries of women with like 5-10% and encourage women to get into master of science educations. No tearing down needed.

And lastly, I would like to highlight how my opponent does what many people do against many other groups of people. He highlights a bad few, say they represent the entire group and then decides to besmirch the entire group when it in fact only is a very small minority doing the bad stuff. There is a difference between a feminist and "feminist"
Feminism is about gender equality and if you aren't for it then you are not a feminist, hence the quotation marks. Just like Stalin wasn't a communist, Bin-Laden wasn't a Muslim and that crazy homophobic church in America isn't Christian. Just because you claim that you are something doesn't make you that thing. The feminist movement has a defined set of goals, "feminists" do not follow these goals, therefore they are not feminists. The movement defines the followers, not the other way around.

Ran out of characters so I posted the links in the comments.
Debate Round No. 2
qwzx

Pro

I have condensed my opponent"s premises below:
1. Feminism=gender equality
2. More vacations are because of pregnancy
3. Fathers should be responsible for pregnancy too
4. Gender roles and stereotypes push women away from STEM
5. Bachelors are useless in STEM fields
6. Applicants for STEM are usually male
7. Companies don"t hire women because sexism
8. Women want CEO and board positions and we should give them more of these titles
9. Gender wage Gap is because of sexism
10. Stalin is not communist, Bin laden is not a Muslim, Homophobic church is not Christianity
11. WOMEN earn less than men=sexism

Counter points
1. Gender equality means an equality of opportunity. These affirmative action policies only secure equality of outcome. Feminism demanding corporations to give women more money than men to close up a wage gap, has nothing to do with equality of opportunity, beating down men for special benefits for women in fact hurts men"s equality of opportunity. "

2. The statistic about working shorter hours and taking vacations does not include pregnancy in the equation. The study conducted vacations and pregnancy leave as two separate things.

3. Fathers are responsible, while females are pregnant and unable to work, the father continues to provide a stable income for the family. It is irresponsible to leave one"s job despite the fact that you are still able-bodied.

4. Countries like the former Soviet Union had no shortage of gender stereotypes and the government enacted several sexist policies. They however, had a larger role in STEM for women. When living in an oppressive and sexist society, women would actually participate in STEM more than in the current free world. Gender roles are not variables in todays phenomenon of women avoiding STEM fields. RAther, women simply tend to go to arts and humanities when given a free choice. Women don"t enter STEM just because, their psychology is different. Women"s brain circuitry is wired towards art and humanities therefore, women tend to gravitate away from STEM. Feminism forcing companies to hire more women has nothing to do with giving women choices but rather promoting an agenda. Most women when applying for STEM have a 2:1 advantage already, how much else is needed to take away more opportunities for young men entering STEM.

5. Women also earn more doctorates and masters than men. Your point about Bachelors being useless is irrelevant.

6. Most of STEM applicants are men but, women also have a 2:1 advantage and again women don"t choose to enter STEM because of their choice.

7. You have not proven that the supposed reason why companies don"t hire a lot of women is the result of some secret patriarchy. ""

8. Bill Gates, Amancio Ortega, Warren Buffet did not just get "hired" into CEO/board positions. They did not just start off as a CEO of a major company. They worked their way up this status from the bottom. You forget that these billionaires did not just protest against the government and just force their way into major and successful corporations. Yes, men make up the majority of billionaires BUT, majority of men are in low income jobs. Meanwhile, most women make up middle-income jobs so, if anyone has any income upward mobility advantage, it is not men but, women. Income mobility for EVERYONE is still quite high and if women truly want to get into high positions, they must start at the bottom like everyone.

9. Gender wage gap has nothing to do with sexism and everything to do with women"s personal choices.

10.Stalin is a communist, Osama Bin-Laden is a Muslim, Homophobic churches are still Christians. While one can condemn their actions, that does not change their ideology. Just because they force/ impose their beliefs on others, doesn"t change the fact that they are still the same ideology. ISIS might be radical Muslims but that doesn"t change the fact that they are Muslims. If I was 5 years old and drink alcohol, does that mean that I am no longer 5 years old? If you decide to wear a dress, does that make you no longer a man? Some Nazis didn"t want to kill Jews, does that mean Hitler is not a Nazi? America"s president and government have been under the Democrats for 8 years, now it is under the Republicans. Does that mean America is no longer America? If you are racist, being openly/secretly "prejudiced does not change the fact that you are still a racist. Ideology is still ideology regardless of practice.

11. Income has no correlation with virtue. Being "poorer" does not mean that you are a better person and that doesn"t mean that the richer person must have rigged the system. The world is not perfect and does not completely follow rules of statistics and probability. Flipping a coin does not guarantee a 50% Head, 50% Tails rate despite, being proven by math to do so. Just because there are two genders with relatively equal portions of the population does not guarantee an equal amount of pay among the two. "

Feminism is not just some simple values or an ideological concept. It is a movement which is led by people and even if, the leaders turn away from their initial values, that does not mean that the movement is no longer the same movement. Feminism is merely a movement that adopted values from Egalitarianism. They have strayed from these concepts of equal opportunity and have focused on misandry. Feminism has changed and now promotes misandry. The movement has moved on from its ideology and therefore, I find it fair to criticize all of it aspects. I am not a feminist because they have moved on from it values. I am an egalitarian so, I still support gender equality but to beat down on men is simply not the answer we need to improve society.
KalleAnka123

Con

1. Sure equal opportunity is part of feminism. But so is equal treatment. If a woman performs the exact same amount of work as man it should follow that she gets the same pay. I cannot see any way you could logically justify the opposite. As to affirmative action, I find those just as un-feministic as the wage gap.

2 & 3. I was a bit unclear in this specific part of my argument. A woman is physically unable to work for maybe 2-3 months due to pregnancies and the immediate post-pregnancy, maybe a bit longer if the baby refuses breast milk from a bottle. After that she is perfectly capable of working again. And yes, during those 2-3 months it would be irresponsible for a husband/boyfriend/father to quit their job. It is what comes afterwards that bothers feminists. As a child is a result of two people the taking care of that child should be split equally. But sadly it is not. Just like the link you posted in the first round women spend twice as much time caring for children than men. And it is not only childcare, housewives are in general is so much more common than househusbands. It shouldn't be culturally acceptable for people of one gender to be the sole income earner just because they are of that gender.

Also, I am not 100% certain of how thing work in the US, but I have heard that women only get like 2-3 weeks of maternity leave and therefore have to use their vacation time to be able to cope. Which I assume would then go into your statistics.

4. Communism has many faults, but gender equality is not one of them. When it comes to gender equality I'd say the Soviets kicked US's asss all through the cold war. When it comes to education and work gender didn't really matter for the Soviets because it was the citizens patriotic duty to do their part for the motherland. So when the commies rolled in three things they made sure everyone had was a job, healthcare and education. My mother was born in communist Czechoslovakia so I have a first hand source on this. Also, the link you posted agrees with me and it says nothing about the supposed sexist and oppressive nature of the Soviet Union that you claim.

As to the women having brains wired in a different way, this is the most sexist thing I think I've heard all year and isn't true in anyway. Women choose arts and humanities because society says so. If you go all your life hearing that women aren't good at math and science and stuff you're obviously not gonna pick it when you eventually get the choice. And as I quite clearly stated, feminism isn't forcing companies to hire women, companies want women but can't get them because their is a serious lack of them on the labour market. Things that are rare usually becomes sought after. Want to fix the problem? Push your daughter to become an engineer. Make sure that in the future, applicants for jobs are 50/50 men and women.

5. That source you posted about women getting more doctorates is laughable. I will not take a source which literally says "Silly me, you can't be sexist against men" as credible when it comes to an argument about feminism. I can't give you any other proof of women getting less masters and doctorate than my own personal experience. I study at Sweden's largest university (Lund University if you want to google it) to become an engineer. I can tell you that on the engineering campus only about 30% of the students here are women. My friends who study physics and chemistry tell me it's just as bad for them. Medicine and biology do the best, with almost 50%. Please tell me how it is possible that women gain more masters and doctorates when they are quite clearly a minority?

6. I've covered this twice now and I don't want to repeat myself again.

7. Why would I want to prove that? It sounds like a load of cr*p. It has nothing to do with this discussion.

8. Yes, they all earned their wealth. And no one is saying anything about protesting or forcing their way into successful corporations. But if feminism is about equal opportunity as you yourself said in the first point, why then is the list made up of a majority of men. If men and women truly had equal opportunities then that list would be 50/50. If you disagree to that you must believe that one gender is superior to the other, which would make you sexist.

As to the majority of men being low income workers, you did not give me any source about it and I couldn't find a reliable one that either confirms or denies that point.

9. How is it a woman's choice if her boss decides to give her 5% less hourly wages than her male counterpart? It's the boss' choice.

10. I don't want to waste characters to refute these because we are getting a bit off topic. But, my point was, which you apparently agree with judging by you last sentence, that "Ideology is ideology, regardless of practice" (very nicely put btw). Just because a person claims to be feminist does not make all their actions feminist. Neither does the feminist ideals of gender equality change because the word is being misused by "feminists".

11. You throw together a lot of metaphors and it eventually ends with a statistically incorrect statement. If half the population (men) and half the population (women) were equal, their wages would be to. That's how statistics work.

Once again my opponent closes with pretty much the same finisher as last time. Just because you have met some crazy sexist women who claims to be feminist doesn't alter feminism. You are confusing individuals with a movement that has a very clear definition and an even clearer set of goals.
And judging by some of the arguments you have made you are very clearly not an egalitarian (for example the women having brains wired differently argument). This however does not change the definition of egalitarianism, because you are only one person who missuses the word. But following by your logic, egalitarianism now should include some misogyni, because you as a follower of the movement have strayed from its core ideal
Debate Round No. 3
qwzx

Pro

I will reinstate the point that you have willfully ignored throughout the entire debate. THIRD-WAVE feminism is different from the viewpoints of traditional feminism and the movement has completely strayed from it's fundamentals about achieving fairness in society. Feminism is a movement and simply many of it's adherents support affirmative-action like policies. You can't just sweep them all under the rug and claim that these are not feminists. After pregnancy, the father will continue to work to supply the household with income which we can both agree is a responsible choice. Where we differ is what happens after, you talk about how women don't work as some kind of major sexist problem. But frankly, I don't see any problem that THIRD-WAVE feminism can fix. The men are not forcing women with threats of violence to stop them from returning to the workplace. And frankly how dare you DEMAND that both gender MUST provide incomes in order to not be "sexist". What gives you the moral obligation to tell the universe and the economy on how it should be run? (US has no maternity leave so, that is definitely not taken in consideration of the "vacation" statistic.) I am in a total state of disbelief after reading your statement: "...They made sure everyone had was a job, healthcare and education". Assuming you ignore the Purges(1.2 million), Soviet caused famine in Volga(5 million), Great Leap Forward (600 million) and their struggling economies that only survived due to Communist armies that quelled any thought of rebellion through military force, you might consider communism a success story. There is only one reason why Soviet women were in STEM and that was because they were forced to by the Soviet government at gunpoint. No feminism caused this involvement in the USSR as feminists were shot and killed by the USSR. As for your point against women and men simply having different interests and psychology, pointing fingers and screaming "SEXIST" does not debunk my point at all. I have already produced years of scientific research to back up a well-known fact about the differences in male and female interests. All you did was scream SEXISM and completely ignored scientific data so you could continue your delusion about how there is institutional sexism and that it secretly detracts women that have an equal skill and interest in STEM. You proclaim this delusion throughout your whole debate without even procuring a single statistic that even remotely backs up your claims. Screaming sexism at my data then going on to ignore my argument and continue to rephrase your argument for the 27th time is not a counterpoint. Your "point" about how women are detracted from STEM is because of how society tells women that they are inferior at mathematics is ridiculous. Not once in my life, has anyone even remotely hinted to me that I am terrible at acting however despite this lack of a negative force, I don't want to pursue an acting career. I don't want to pursue an acting career, not because society tells me that I don't have the ability the reason but, is that I simply have no interest. Just because women apply to STEM jobs at a slightly lower rate does not mean there is institutional sexism of any kind. Men do not have 50% of jobs in the field of nursing, that does not translate into sexism. Your idea of a gender-equal society is horrifying: "Make sure that in the future, applicants for jobs are 50/50 men and women.". I have proven on the preponderance on the evidence of which you have done little to nothing to refute, that women and men simply have different interests due to their brains. What you are demanding for is that society should force little girls to pick STEM jobs regardless of interests to fulfill your ignorant quota. You claim that you are against affirmative actions, but you turn right around and advocate for these similar policies. With your points about "personal experience" about women getting less masters and PhDs, frankly you are wrong. Years of statistics and studies show otherwise and your experiences are not reliable in the slightest. As for your point about how if there are equal opportunity for both genders then that would result in equal outcome is a laughable argument. Outcome is about decisions in life and while opportunity plays a role in where you start, it does not define where you end. In a previous round, I have presented a statistics that shows that income mobility in very high despite where you start. Using your logic: Monopoly, Chess, Checkers, Olympic games, etc. would all end in tie games. The result does not boil down to a specific gender/player rigging the system but, an individual's choices which leads to victory or defeat. Men make up majority of CEOs because, men are more likely to take risks in life. That is why majority of women are in the middle, and a majority of men are at the bottom. More risks can lead to greater gains and greater losses. That is why there is a majority of CEOS being male despite a majority of the male population at the bottom. At the end, it's the women's decisions that lead to the "wage gap", they avoid risks, take more vacations, avoid STEM and simply work less hours. With your supposed "refutation" about how the world does not completely follow probabilities, you just go right on and ignore it by claiming it was false without any evidence or arguments.

Once again my opponent merely repeats the same strategy as last time. Just because you say my point is false, doesn't mean that it's false, I DEMAND that you provide evidence in your counter points as I do. And judging by some of the arguments you have made you clearly do not understand how to debate intelligently using evidence and reason. Your whole argument has degraded to the point where your "refutations" aren't even counterpoints but mere assaults on my character through unsupported allegations of misogyny and sexism. Name calling and ignoring opponent arguments don't win debates.
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by qwzx 1 year ago
qwzx
sure you could post it while I find them again
Posted by KalleAnka123 1 year ago
KalleAnka123
Mind if I post my argument now or should I wait for your links?
Posted by qwzx 1 year ago
qwzx
I have no idea why that happened. The Harvard link wasn't even supposed to be there. I will find all the links now and resubmit them. Smh....sorry
Posted by KalleAnka123 1 year ago
KalleAnka123
Is there a problem with the links? All of them take me to the front page of various websites, except for the one from Harvard which seems to be a guide for how to write a rebuttal (I assume it is meant as an insult).
Posted by KalleAnka123 1 year ago
KalleAnka123
No links this time. And sorry for the delay, I've had a couple of exams and haven't had time to write anything.
Posted by qwzx 1 year ago
qwzx
I ran out of room to debunk your point about femisim not tearing down men. I will mention that next round
Posted by qwzx 1 year ago
qwzx
Due to our lengthy arguments, lets just post our sources here! :)
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