The Instigator
9spaceking
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
RevNge
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

This House Would Allow Secret Topics on DDO!

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
RevNge
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/26/2014 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 681 times Debate No: 63972
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
Votes (2)

 

9spaceking

Pro

Round one acceptance
Secret topics: Topics hidden until the beginning of the debate. The debaters choose the side, then the topic is randomly selected. These topics are chosen from this link: http://www.edeb8.com....
The only exception considered is "
That governments should only test drugs for safety, not effectiveness, before approving
them for the public" (Because that topic is ridiculously biased)
DDO: Debate.org
No trolling nor semantics.
RevNge

Con

I accept! Should 9space lose this debate, however, according to the DDO goal list, he would be even lower than a noob, and much accept all consequences if I win. If he wins, he may proceed to the next components of the goals. Good luck!
Debate Round No. 1
9spaceking

Pro

His goals are wrong in my opinion. Bluesteel is definitely not worse than Roy and will be a gazillion times harder than Roy to beat. Furthermore, I think of him far better than a noob. Whatever. Now, let us see why DDO should allow secret topics. (Computer randomly decides which secret topic is availible)

1. MORE FUN, MORE CHALLENGE!!
You see, with about 150 secret topics, it is very unpredictable what topic you are going to get. Therefore it is more challenging and more fun, and the time limit truly closes in with these secret topics, forcing people to jump on their feet quickly and manage to uphold their part of the debate. With more challenge, secret topics are definitely going to be more fun than usual boring topics in which one already knows what the topic is going to be and can prepare beforehand.

2. Because Edeb8 has it.
Edeb8.com uses Secret topic, and those debates are just as high quality as those that are not "Secret topic". There is no reason why DDO shouldn't have secret topics either, if Edeb8 also has secret topics.

3. They are fair.
As Admin from Edeb8 can justify, all of these secret topics are done before, and both sides have been debated over in many different tournaments as well as official debates, whether live debate or online debating. As both sides can win in these debates, they are obviously fair, and both sides are non-biased, as well as being controvercial, so any secret topic will definitely have lots of solid argumentations to them. Who knows, someone might come up with a unique argument for that topic from some other research.

Since my opponent downgraded himself so much I will respect him, and, for this round, go easy on him. The full impact of my force will be coming next round. But for now, there you have it. Secret topics are awesome and fair.
Onto you, RevNge.
RevNge

Con

Thanks to 9space for his argument! I assure you that I'm much, much worse than a 1000 Elo noob, so you'll still have to accept the consequences. ;P
Also, apologies for the long delay. I'm also afraid that I have only been able to refute my opponent's arguments, and failed to add contentions due to the lack of time. I'll make sure to post my second argument at a shorter notice, along with a more considerate and in-depth quality.

R1: More Fun, More Challenge!!
Fun - something that provides mirth or amusement[1]
Challenge - difficulty in a job or undertaking that is stimulating to one engaged in it[2]

According to these definitions, Pro states that secret topics will be amusing and difficult to engage in. However, his argument is flawed in saying that secret topics are fun and challenging merely because they are unpredictable. I concede that as long as both sides are unfamiliar with the issue, it will be challenging, as if you do not know much about the topic, then you'll obviously be inclined to do some research in advance. However, for debaters that are well aware of many subjects (as many of such members are on DDO), there will not be much difficulty for people that are already familiar with the issue. In other words, for top-tier competitors, or even people who are well acquainted with all kinds of issues but do not excel in debating, there will be hardly any change in difficulty, as they do not have to research.

That is only a minor rebuttal on my part. Many debates that people accept are usually topics that they are not initially familiar with. In debating, one instigator wishes to debate an issue, and the contender accepts. However, judging from the large number of sources that are usually posted at the end of each well-defined argument, the debater has derived his arguments from the foreign source, and as a result, actually been forced to do research in order to acquire facts that they are not familiar with.

Take a look at this debate.[3] It is the Tier 1 Expert's Finale, but the topic is obviously not secret. However, extensive research and work has evidently been done by both sides, using numerous sources to support their arguments.In other words, secret topics are not truly "secret" as there really is no surprise or additional difficulty than a debate with a visible topic. Pro's arguments are thus refuted.

R2: Because Edeb8 has it.
This argument is very weak to support Pro's argument for secret topics. DDO has other things that Edeb8 doesn't have--live debating, debate teams, etc. Chances are that we're not going to have them any time soon, so from this, it can be concluded that DDO isn't going to add things that Edeb8 holds possession of. In addition, DDO and Edeb8 are separate websites, and are not interdependent on each other, nor are they affected by choices that each site makes, unless it is specifically directed at them.

R3: They are Fair.
This argument contradicts Pro's first contention, because he specifically said that "both sides have been debated over in many different tournaments as well as official debates, whether live debate or online debating." If these "secret topics" are popular issues like he has stated, then they are hardly secret and many debaters will have at least a mediocre knowledge in that subject. Furthermore, many high-tier debaters have participated in IRL tournaments and debates, and surely they must have ran into many of them in some of their debates. This cancels out a significant portion of a secret topic's main purpose: it's unpredictability.

Conclusion
Overall, the most prominent fact that Pro has neglected to take into consideration is that other debates without secret topics also share the characteristics of Pro's contentions, if not even surpassing them. Let's simplify Pro's resolution:

P)There are already thousands of debates that do not have secret topics.
Q)Pro states that there should be secret topic debates on DDO.
R)Therefore, it can be concluded that Pro must prove how secret topic debates are an improvement from regular debates or if it has different features that regular debates do not possess, and if it's worth the trouble of implementing it.

So far, Pro has not proved that secret topics are better than regular debates. I have shown that there is no quality in which secret topic debates significantly surpass regular debates. Pro's arguments are at least somewhat true, but regular debaters are just as fair, have about the same level of fun and challenge, and Edeb8 has it. I rest my case. Back to you, Pro!

Sources
[1]http://dictionary.reference.com...
[2]http://dictionary.reference.com...
[3]http://www.debate.org...
Debate Round No. 2
9spaceking

Pro

"...for top-tier competitors, or even people who are well acquainted with all kinds of issues but do not excel in debating, there will be hardly any change in difficulty, as they do not have to research."
Incorrect. They may have to take the opposing side they normally take. >:D

"...actually been forced to do research in order to acquire facts that they are not familiar with."
Exactly, that's the big challenge.

"...secret topics are not truly "secret" as there really is no surprise or additional difficulty than a debate with a visible topic."
Actually, there is. As I mentioned before, there are over 150 topics for the computer to randomly chose from, therfore you really can't prepare until the debate begins and the topic is shown.

2. Because Edeb8 has it
"DDO has other things that Edeb8 doesn't have--live debating, debate teams, etc."
Edeb8 has live debating and debate teams as well. What are you talking about?

3. They are fair.
Indeed, some may be repetitive but there's no way anyone did all 150-something debates.

My arguments remain un-refuted. Secret topics are still fun, unpredictable, challenging at most times, and because such are better than normal debates. All I need is pure logic to support my motions.
RevNge

Con

R1: Incorrect. They may have to take the opposing side they normally take.
That's called taking devil's advocate. This argument is refuted.

R2: Exactly, that's the big challenge.
I was talking about challenging debates with topics that are visible to the topic, as the Tier 1 Experts' Finale. This argument is refuted as well.

R3: As I mentioned before, there are over 150 topics for the computer to randomly chose from, therfore you really can't prepare until the debate begins and the topic is shown.
In regular debates, the contender also is unable to prepare beforehand during the debate. Because of this, secret topic debates lose half of their entire purpose.

R4: Edeb8 has live debating and debate teams as well. What are you talking about?
My apologies; I meant that Edeb8 had live debating and debate teams, and DDO doesn't, yet we don't make an effort to have them simply because Edeb8 has them. I switched the two. Feel free to take the S&G point off of me, but this argument is refuted as well due to misinformation.

R5: Indeed, some may be repetitive but there's no way anyone did all 150-something debates.
Perhaps not. However, secret topics have only one thing that regular debates do not have: the element of surprise. If this element is gone, then there is no point to secret debates. In addition, debaters that dislike debating from their beliefs and are opposed to playing devil's advocate would strongly oppose secret topics due to this issue.

R6: My arguments remain un-refuted.
False. Your arguments are now refuted again from my previous uses of logic and reasoning.

Before ending this round, there is one contention to significantly strengthen my arguments:

C1: It Is Unlikely That Juggle Will Add Secret Topics.
Take a look at the DDO Enhancement Suggestions thread.[1] This thread is full of hundreds of positive suggestions, with only a few taken into account. If you were to be in favor of adding secret topics, you would obviously post the suggestion of secret topics in the thread so that Juggle may add it to DDO. However, all of the recent suggestions within the span of several months were not taken in to account. Not a single one. Therefore, chances are that Juggle will take a long time to add or even consider the principle of secret topics, at the very least. Due to the lack of uses of secret topic debates combined with the unlikeliness of Juggle going through the process of updating the site, the principle of secret topics is not realistic enough to become a reality.

Back to you, Pro! No new arguments in the final round, if I am correct.
Debate Round No. 3
9spaceking

Pro

1. Indeed, devil's advocate is tough.
2. So? At least secret topics can be just as, if not more challenging, than the expert's finale.
3. Incorrect. Some people can prepare before they accept. On the other hand in secret topics you must prepare exactly when the topic appears, which is after they accept.
4. Edeb8's new stuff that DDO doesn't have just proves how inferior DDO is to Edeb8.
5. If opponents don't want to play devil's, they don't have to. I'm not saying that secret topics should be enforced, just that they should be made in DDO.

C1: Unlikeliness of juggle adding a secret topic.
Even if Juggle doesn't want or cannot add a secret topic, that still does not mean that Secret topics shouldn't be added. Even if something isn't possible, it's still a good ideal dream to look for.

IN CONCLUSION
I think I beat this so called by himself "worse than noobs".
Even if I lose, that does not mean I am even worse than a noob. I lost to dairygirl4u2c a long time ago, does that mean I am worse than her? Naw, just that I debated the wrong style in that debate.
VOTE ME.
RevNge

Con

1. This is a concession.
2. Some people don't want challenging debates, such as this one. In addition, the only balanced topics, such as DDO tournament debates, are just as challenging as a debate from Edeb8's secret topic list. Argument rebutted.
3. Con needs to provide rebuttals and research for Pro's arguments, therefore Con can't really prepare. In addition, someone might accept the debate before you if you take a long time to prepare. However, Con's primary goal is to negate Pro's arguments, and you can't prepare for that. This argument is, at the very least, semi-refuted.
4. That is a topic for another issue. DDO is totally independent from Edeb8, and vice versa. Just because Edeb8 has something doesn't mean that DDO should get it as well. Argument negated.
5. Even if they have the choice, outside of legitimate and tournament debates (which is a vast minority), secret topic debates would be hardly used because many of the debates instigated are in accordance to the instigator's beliefs. In other words, the coding and the work of adding secret topics for a couple dozen debates out of the thousands overall is not worth it.
6. This defeats the whole purpose. Even if one person wants secret topics, if it's impossible to be added, it can't be added, and Pro loses this debate because secret topics won't be allowed on DDO because it doesn't exist.

Conclusion:
Pro has made hasty arguments all three rounds, and I have refuted all of them with a contention of my own: It is extremely improbable that Juggle would bother to add secret topics, nor will secret topics compensate for the work needed to implement it. Therefore, secret topics are fruitless on DDO, and should not be added. Furthermore, I have added all of my opponent's arguments. Vote Con.

Side Argument (unrelated to the topic):
The word "noob" used to describe me is like describing 9space as the "Debate God." That's how low I am in terms of skill. If Pro loses this debate, he will be derided for such lack of skill in debating that he lost against someone like me forever, and will never regain his reputation again. Thanks for the debate, 9space, and for your sake, I hope that you will win, although I have negated all of your arguments.
Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
lol nope
Posted by RevNge 2 years ago
RevNge
I now declare thee the noob of the noobs of noobs!
Posted by RevNge 2 years ago
RevNge
LOL, this should be interesting.
Posted by RevNge 2 years ago
RevNge
Sorry for the delay. Argument's up. :P
Posted by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
haha, well, you agreed to it. You didn't object.
And besides, one should play devil's advocate once in a while, no?
Posted by RevNge 2 years ago
RevNge
Dammit. I agree with you on this topic. XD
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Imperfiect 2 years ago
Imperfiect
9spacekingRevNgeTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: 9spaceking literally said Dev. Ad. becomes harder as well as conceding to 80% of Con. BoP not really upheld and that's that.
Vote Placed by Adam_Godzilla 2 years ago
Adam_Godzilla
9spacekingRevNgeTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Hmm this is so hard! The resolution was about secret topics being allowed, not about whether it should be implemented. No wonder theres no votes. Con makes sense and pro rebutted less. So. . . Con wins? Yup, he wins. Though I love Pro's idea.