The Instigator
benko12345678
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
kasmic
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

This house believes that Stalin was not a socialist

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
kasmic
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/1/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,481 times Debate No: 62499
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (24)
Votes (2)

 

benko12345678

Pro

As a totalitarian socialist I condone all socialist/communist regimes, however, in this debate I make the claim that Josef Stalin was not a socialist.

In this debate I establish that:
This is a debate on whether or not Josef Stalin was a socialist. Your personal opinion on what is and is not moral is irrelevant.

Definition of socialism:

'A theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.'

1. Josip Stalin was a corrupt bureaucrat that plunged the Socialist ideals of Marx and Lenin (and other Marxists) into a totalitarian regime where the state controlled absolutely everything. Communism by default is highly against a one-communist-state even existing. Stalin was not a Communist or a Socialist by any means. He was a fascist that used Communist imagery and ideology to control everyone and everything.

2. Stalin's social outlooks were much closer to fascism than true communism. Stalin condemned homosexuality (irrelevant if you personally find it immoral), even though Lenin was a strong supporter of homosexual rights.

3. Stalin supported collective farming, which was akin to subsidized farming, an aspect only found in a completely capitalist nation. The soviet union was based on various forms of State capitalism. Goods were produced, not for use only, but for sale at a profit. Industry was carried on largely on lines familiar to State-capitalist organisations outside the USSR. The soviet Government borrowed from investors (mostly Soviet citizens) hundreds of millions of pounds for investment in industry, and payed them a high rate of interest on their investments; this payment to the investors being the first charge on industry.

4. One of the most significant events of the cold war was the Tito-Stalin split. Tito advocated the abolition of collective farming and the 'Tito standard' which stated that the needs of an individual socialist nation would be of higher significance than the needs of a one-socialist-nation, which Stalin opposed (A one-world-socialist state is a mark of imperialism. Definition of Imperialism from the Oxford thesaurus: 'advocacy of imperial or sovereign interests over the interests of the dependent states.')

5. On 22 May 1943, Stalin announced the formal shutting-down of the Communist International, the association of revolutionary socialist parties across the world set up after the October Revolution.

6. The most important distinction between fascist Stalinism and Marxist Communism was the preserved class hierarchy. Most branches of Fascism include an extreme fixed Hierarchy, whether the elite class was the Leader, the Military, the Capitalists, or just the State. The "Communist" Party of the Soviet Union was an elite class of its own, while the rest of the people were left in dire conditions... something that the Revolution sought to put an end to.

7. At the most basic level, a Marxist communist society:
Is classless
Is stateless
Has no form of a currency
Has the means of production owned in common by all people.

Stalinism meets none of these requirements.

8. Stalinism does remove classes - see "kulaks" and "bourgeoisie" - but then creates new ones to fill the gaps while maintaining the pretense of a revolution. In essence, it's as hierarchical as capitalism, if not more so.

9. Stalinism does not abolish the state, it greatly expands it and its power, creating totalitarian police states ostensibly to "advance the revolution without the threat of saboteurs" etc. but actually to consolidate the power of the ruling elite.

10. Stalinism maintains currency and ration stamps as an element of coercion - the USSR, particularly in the early 30s during collectivization, used food, and currency - ration stamps, which ensured access to food - as a weapon against dissent on a near-unparalleled scale. Currency is a key feature and a key weapon of Stalinist states.

11. Stalinism does not have the means of production owned in common by all people, the state instead takes control of the means of production because it cannot trust the workers, whom it allegedly sets out to emancipate, with the responsibility of their workplaces - after all, they might speak out against the Dear Leader, now, mightn't they?

Links:
[1]http://en.wikipedia.org...
[2]http://en.wikipedia.org...
[3]http://en.wikipedia.org...
[4]http://soviethistory.macalester.edu...
[5]http://www.socialistrevolution.org...
[6]http://www.workerspower.net...
kasmic

Con

Thank you Benko12345678 for this debate topic! Can I call you Benko? I look Forward to a stimulating debate!

Due to the resolution of this debate I admonish judges to be wary of the "No True Scotsmen" fallacy. This "is an informal fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion. When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim ("no Scotsman would do such a thing"), rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule ("no true Scotsman would do such a thing")."(1)

This is an example of the fallacy

"Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Person B: "I am Scottish, and I put sugar on my porridge."
Person A: "Well, no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."(1)

Please do not misunderstand me, I am not accusing my opponent of this fallacy, I just would like the judges to be aware as the debate is over what makes one a "true" socialist.

I will reply to each of Pro"s points in the order he presented them.

1: my opponent says that Stalin was a "corrupt bureaucrat that plunged the Socialist ideals of Marx and Lenin (and other Marxists) into a totalitarian regime where the state controlled absolutely everything."

This is thus far consistent with the definition of socialism as the "state," or in other words "Community as a whole," "controls the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc." (taken from my opponents definition of socialism)

The State: "a politically unified people occupying a definite territory; nation. "(2)

My opponent says "Communism by default is highly against a one-communist-state even existing." I invite Pro to substantiate this claim with a source; until he does it should be regarded as hearsay.

My opponent says "Stalin was not a Communist or a Socialist by any means." I submit the definition of a communist.

Communist: "a person who believes in communism or is a member of a political party that supports communism"(3)

Stalin was a member of a "Communist party."(4) The party was called "The Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU)" which was founded by Lenin.(5) This proves that Stalin fits the definition of communist.

My opponent says "He was a fascist that used Communist imagery and ideology to control everyone and everything."

Here my opponent admits that Stalin "used Communist imagery and ideology." Sounds like something a Communist would do.

2: Pro says "Stalin's social outlooks were much closer to fascism than true communism. Stalin condemned homosexuality (irrelevant if you personally find it immoral), even though Lenin was a strong supporter of homosexual rights."

Fredrick Engels, is known as the "father of Marxist theory, together with Karl Marx."(6)He also co-authored the communist manifesto. "Friedrich Engels condemned homosexuality in association with pedophilia."(7) This clearly separates ones view on homosexuality from socialism/communism as Lenin and Engels are both accepted as iconic figures who were socialist/communists, and had opposing views. This argument is negated.

3. Pro says "Stalin supported collective farming, which was akin to subsidized farming, an aspect only found in a completely capitalist nation."

Humorously, when you look up "collective farming" it has direct ties to Communism.(8) Kim Jong Il who is also a communist, has implemented "collective farming" in North Korea.(9)(10) The same is true of Fidel Castro in Cuba. (11) This shows my opponents arguments to be inconsistent with communism. You cannot logically say Stalin is not a communist for this, but Kim Jong Il, and Fidel Castro are in spite of this.

4. So far as I can tell, my opponent"s argument here is that no communist nation can be imperialistic. Again I invite Pro to provide sources to back this claim and until such time should be regarded as hearsay.

5.Pro say"s "On 22 May 1943, Stalin announced the formal shutting-down of the Communist International, the association of revolutionary socialist parties across the world set up after the October Revolution." I invite pro to elaborate as to why this would make Stalin not a socialist/communist as right now this is a statement without an application to the argument.

6.Pro said "Finally, and the most important distinction between fascist Stalinism and Marxist Communism was the preserved class hierarchy. Most branches of Fascism include an extreme fixed Hierarchy, whether the elite class was the Leader, the Military, the Capitalists, or just the State. The "Communist" Party of the Soviet Union was an elite class of its own, while the rest of the people were left in dire conditions... something that the Revolution sought to put an end to."

My response:

"Vladimir Lenin popularized political vanguardism as conceptualized by Karl Kautsky, detailing his thoughts in one of his earlier works, What is to be done?. Lenin argued that Marxism"s complexity and the hostility of the establishment (the autocratic, semi-feudal state of Imperial Russia,) required a close-knit group of individuals pulled from the working class vanguard to safeguard the revolutionary ideology within the particular circumstances presented by the Tsarist r"gime at the time."(12)

It seems that it could be argued that Stalin implemented the idea of a "Vangaurd." This is at its roots a socialistic/communistic principle.

7-11: Pro claims that "At the most basic level, a Marxist communist society: Is classless, Is stateless, Has no form of a currency, Has the means of production owned in common by all people.

Again if you compare to Cuba and North Korea to Stalin"s Russia, they are very similar in regard to class distinction, currency, and state controlled means of production.

Criticism:

Socialism: ": a way of organizing a society in which major industries are owned and controlled by the government rather than by individual people and companies"(13)

Pro did not provide a source for his definition of socialism. The definition above is taken from Merriam-Webster. I present this as my opponent"s definition uses the words "community" while the dictionary uses "government" in reference to who controls the means of production.

If my opponent could clarify the difference between the two and why his definition for one reason or another should be preferred over the dictionaries, it would add some clarity and authority to the debate. It seems most of pro"s argument would rest on this distinction. Also as we do want to avoid the "no true Scotsmen" fallacy it would be appropriate for Pro to give an example of somewhere or someone who is a "true" communist/socialist.

Summary of rebuttals:

Stalin fits the definition of communist found in the dictionary. Stalin cannot be excluded as a socialist/communist for collective farming as Kim Jong Il and Fidel Castro have also implemented this practice. Stalin seems to have implemented Lenin"s idea of Vanguardism to its natural application. Many of Pro"s statements are hearsay, as he did not provide sources to back these claims.

After examination of my opponent"s argument that Stalin is not a "true" socialist/communist, it becomes clear that he is as much a socialist/communist as Kim Jong Il or Fidel Castro are "true" socialist/communists. The resolution is negated.

(1) http://en.wikipedia.org...
(2) http://dictionary.reference.com...
(3) http://www.merriam-webster.com...
(4) http://www.britannica.com...
(5) http://en.wikipedia.org...
(6) http://en.wikipedia.org...
(7) http://en.wikipedia.org...
(8) http://en.wikipedia.org...
(9) http://en.wikipedia.org...
(10) http://www.theguardian.com...
(11) http://en.wikipedia.org...
(12) http://en.wikipedia.org...
(13) http://www.merriam-webster.com...
Debate Round No. 1
benko12345678

Pro

Before we begin I would like to thank Kasmic for agreeing to accept this debate (I have been looking forward to a serious debate on this topic)
The no-true scotsman fallacy cannot be applied to my argument (and you admit as much), as I am using an official definition. I apologize if I have not provided the link for the definition. In this rebuttal, the link for the definition is in the references (number 8)

1. 'Communist: "a person who believes in communism or is a member of a political party that supports communism"
Stalin was a member of a "Communist party." The party was called "The Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU)" which was founded by Lenin. This proves that Stalin fits the definition of communist.'

I believe you are referring to the Bolshevik party[1]. The communist party was an executive branch, formed after the russian civil war in 1921.
Stalin may have been a communist by definition, however, his policies were not in line with marxist socialist theory.
Socialist and communist are not synonymous. [2]
I admit, the debate topic was wrongfully worded. I should have called it 'Stalin's economic and social policies were not in line with marxist-socialist theory'

2. Here my opponent admits that Stalin "used Communist imagery and ideology." Sounds like something a Communist would do.

Again, Stalin was, by official definition, a communist. As I stated above, the name of the debate was constructed in a fallacious manner. I apologize.

3. Fredrick Engels, is known as the "father of Marxist theory, together with Karl Marx."He also co-authored the communist manifesto. "Friedrich Engels condemned homosexuality in association with pedophilia." This clearly separates ones view on homosexuality from socialism/communism as Lenin and Engels are both accepted as iconic figures who were socialist/communists, and had opposing views. This argument is negated.

Fredrick Engels lived in a time when homosexuality was widely believed to be a disease. Stalin lived in a time when such prejudices could already have been abandoned. Karl Marx is widely believed to be the father of socialism. Frederick Engels did not write Das Kapital or Critique of the Gotha program after all. Karl Marx was a strong supporter of homosexual rights. Karl Ulrichs and Karl Marx were both for homosexual emancipation. [3]

4. Humorously, when you look up "collective farming" it has direct ties to Communism. Kim Jong Il who is also a communist, has implemented "collective farming" in North Korea. The same is true of Fidel Castro in Cuba. This shows my opponents arguments to be inconsistent with communism. You cannot logically say Stalin is not a communist for this, but Kim Jong Il, and Fidel Castro are in spite of this.

I was not referring to collective farming in general, I was referring to the Stalinist model of collective farming. It is true, Kim Jong Il was not a communist. Like it or not, the DPRK practices Juche (an ideology completely separate from marxism).[4]

5. So far as I can tell, my opponent"s argument here is that no communist nation can be imperialistic. Again I invite Pro to provide sources to back this claim and until such time should be regarded as hearsay.

I never stated that no communist nation can be imperialistic. Karl Marx was strongly opposed to imperialism and called it 'part of the prehistory of capitalist mode of production'[5]

6. Pro say"s "On 22 May 1943, Stalin announced the formal shutting-down of the Communist International, the association of revolutionary socialist parties across the world set up after the October Revolution." I invite pro to elaborate as to why this would make Stalin not a socialist/communist as right now this is a statement without an application to the argument.

The Comintern was created for spreading communist ideals and general goodwill on earth. It was the global branch of communism. However, I would be willing to abandon this argument if con finds it to be fallacious.

7. "Vladimir Lenin popularized political Vanguardism as conceptualized by Karl Kautsky, detailing his thoughts in one of his earlier works, What is to be done?. Lenin argued that Marxism"s complexity and the hostility of the establishment (the autocratic, semi-feudal state of Imperial Russia,) required a close-knit group of individuals pulled from the working class vanguard to safeguard the revolutionary ideology within the particular circumstances presented by the Tzarist regime at the time."It seems that it could be argued that Stalin implemented the idea of a "Vanguard." This is at its roots a socialistic/communistic principle.

Con's source seems to defeat his argument. 'In theory, the revolutionary vanguard is not intended to be an organization separate from the working class, that attempts to place itself at the center of the movement and steer it in a direction consistent with its own ideology. It is instead intended to be an organic part of the working class that comes to socialist consciousness as a result of the dialectic of class struggle.'
The revolutionary vanguard was not meant to be the elite.[6]

8. Again if you compare to Cuba and North Korea to Stalin"s Russia, they are very similar in regard to class distinction, currency, and state controlled means of production.

Your reference, sir? Also, as stated above, North Korea is not based on marxism. Juche is completely seperate from Marxism.
Cuba is a completely different regime, created in completely different circumstances. This would be a debate for another day. Marxist theory proposes WORKER controlled means of production, which was later 'translated' as the state by Lenin.[7]

Criticism of criticism:

Socialism: ": a way of organizing a society in which major industries are owned and controlled by the government rather than by individual people and companies"
Pro did not provide a source for his definition of socialism. The definition above is taken from Merriam-Webster. I present this as my opponent"s definition uses the words "community" while the dictionary uses "government" in reference to who controls the means of production.
If my opponent could clarify the difference between the two and why his definition for one reason or another should be preferred over the dictionaries, it would add some clarity and authority to the debate. It seems most of pro"s argument would rest on this distinction. Also as we do want to avoid the "no true Scotsmen" fallacy it would be appropriate for Pro to give an example of somewhere or someone who is a "true" communist/socialist.
Summary of rebuttals:
Stalin fits the definition of communist found in the dictionary. Stalin cannot be excluded as a socialist/communist for collective farming as Kim Jong Il and Fidel Castro have also implemented this practice. Stalin seems to have implemented Lenin"s idea of Vanguardism to its natural application. Many of Pro"s statements are hearsay, as he did not provide sources to back these claims.
After examination of my opponent"s argument that Stalin is not a "true" socialist/communist, it becomes clear that he is as much a socialist/communist as Kim Jong Il or Fidel Castro are "true" socialist/communists. The resolution is negated.

My dear con, the definition was taken from an entirely different source .[8]
Marxist theory states that the workers should control the means of production. Sure, you could make the claim that no nation was truly socialist if that is the standard. That could be a debate for another day. It is true that almost no nation in history has followed marxist theory to the letter, however, Stalinism doesn't even keep to the core tenets. I'm not arguing that Stalin wasn't a communist, I'm arguing that he wasn't a socialist. The second reference should explain the difference.

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org...
[2]http://asianhistory.about.com...
[3]http://en.wikipedia.org...
[4]http://en.wikipedia.org...
[5]http://en.wikipedia.org...
[6]http://en.wikipedia.org...
[7]http://en.wikipedia.org...
[8]http://dictionary.reference.com...
kasmic

Con

A:The resolution

My opponents resolution reads "This house believes that Stalin was not a socialist."

Pro says "Socialist and communist are not synonymous."

I contend that they are synonymous. Thesauruses are in agreement as dictionary.com(1), Merriam-Webster(2), and the Oxford dictionary(3) all agree that Communist and Socialist are synonyms. Even Pro's link on the difference between Communism and Socialism states "the terms are sometimes used interchangeably."(My opponents 2nd link.)

Pro states "Stalin may have been a communist by definition, however, his policies were not in line with marxist socialist theory."

He also stated "Again, Stalin was, by official definition, a communist."

My opponent admits that Stalin by definition is a communist, and as it is clearly evident that communist and socialist are synonyms per multiple dictionaries/Thesauruses. It is indisputably clear that Stalin was a socialist. The resolution is obliterated.

B: Lets continue anyway".

Pro says "I admit, the debate topic was wrongfully worded. I should have called it 'Stalin's economic and social policies were not in line with marxist-socialist theory'

I will indulge my opponent and continue our debate even with the Resolution being negated.

Pro says "Frederick Engels did not write Das Kapital or Critique of the Gotha program after all." As well as "Fredrick Engels lived in a time when homosexuality was widely believed to be a disease."

"The Communist Manifesto is an 1848 publication written by economic and political theorists and social scientists Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels."(4)

I maintain that Friedrich Engels did in fact write "The Communist Manifesto" with Karl Marx and lived in the same time as Marx. I also will restate that he "condemned homosexuality in association with pedophilia." It matters not which era he lived, this still shows that a indisputable Socialist was against homosexuality. Thereby separating the issue of ones opinion regarding homosexuals and being a socialist.

My opponent says "I was not referring to collective farming in general, I was referring to the Stalinist model of collective farming."

Lets see what was said in round 1 by pro
"Stalin supported collective farming, which was akin to subsidized farming, an aspect only found in a completely capitalist nation."

It seems fairly clear that my opponent was referring to collective farming in general.

Pro says "Con's source seems to defeat his argument. 'In theory, the revolutionary vanguard is not intended to be an organization separate from the working class,"

Lots of things in "theory" are not intended to be a certain way, and when realized become so. For example, in "theory" Christianity is supposed to be peaceful, yet many atrocities have been committed by those who profess to be Christian. This is virtually true of any religion/ideology. In "theory" things are often different than in "practice." I maintain my argument that Stalin was implementing a vanguard.

Pro says "Marxist theory states that the workers should control the means of production. Sure, you could make the claim that no nation was truly socialist if that is the standard."

I agree, and to apply that to this debate. By the standard set, no country, or person would be a "true" socialist. However, Stalin fits the definition as well as anyone else and is therefore as much a socialist as is possible.

Conclusion:

Stalin established and maintained country that implemented a theory that "'A theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole."

(1) http://www.thesaurus.com...
(2) http://www.merriam-webster.com...
(3) http://www.oxforddictionaries.com...
(4) http://en.wikipedia.org...
(5) http://asianhistory.about.com...
Debate Round No. 2
benko12345678

Pro

1.'Pro says Socialist and communist are not synonymous.
I contend that they are synonymous. Thesauruses are in agreement as dictionary.com, Merriam-Webster, and the Oxford dictionary all agree that Communist and Socialist are synonyms. Even Pro's link on the difference between Communism and Socialism states the terms are sometimes used interchangeably.'

Well, terms used interchangeably are also hard and concentrated[1], does that mean they're synonymous?

2.'Pro states "Stalin may have been a communist by definition, however, his policies were not in line with marxist socialist theory."
He also stated "Again, Stalin was, by official definition, a communist."
My opponent admits that Stalin by definition is a communist, and as it is clearly evident that communist and socialist are synonyms per multiple dictionaries/Thesauruses. It is indisputably clear that Stalin was a socialist. The resolution is obliterated.'

As I said, they're not synonymous and as stated before, the title was ill-conceived (please re-label it: Stalin's policies were not in line with socialist policies)

3.'Pro says "I admit, the debate topic was wrongfully worded. I should have called it 'Stalin's economic and social policies were not in line with marxist-socialist theory'
I will indulge my opponent and continue our debate even with the Resolution being negated.'

Thank you.

4.Pro says "Frederick Engels did not write Das Kapital or Critique of the Gotha program after all." As well as "Fredrick Engels lived in a time when homosexuality was widely believed to be a disease."
"The Communist Manifesto is an 1848 publication written by economic and political theorists and social scientists Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels."
I maintain that Friedrich Engels did in fact write "The Communist Manifesto" with Karl Marx and lived in the same time as Marx. I also will restate that he "condemned homosexuality in association with pedophilia." It matters not which era he lived, this still shows that a indisputable Socialist was against homosexuality. Thereby separating the issue of ones opinion regarding homosexuals and being a socialist.

Very well, this argument shall be negated. However, Karl Marx, the founder of socialism, wrote in a letter to Karl Ulrichs that his socialist theory supports the emancipation of homosexuals.[2]

5.'My opponent says "I was not referring to collective farming in general, I was referring to the Stalinist model of collective farming."
Lets see what was said in round 1 by pro
"Stalin supported collective farming, which was akin to subsidized farming, an aspect only found in a completely capitalist nation."
It seems fairly clear that my opponent was referring to collective farming in general.'

Again, an ill-conceived statement. I should have been more careful. I understand if you wish to negate this argument and you are justified in doing so. What I meant was that Stalin's model of collective farming was more akin to business subsidization, again, I apologize.

6.'Pro says "Con's source seems to defeat his argument. 'In theory, the revolutionary vanguard is not intended to be an organization separate from the working class,"
Lots of things in "theory" are not intended to be a certain way, and when realized become so. For example, in "theory" Christianity is supposed to be peaceful, yet many atrocities have been committed by those who profess to be Christian. This is virtually true of any religion/ideology. In "theory" things are often different than in "practice." I maintain my argument that Stalin was implementing a vanguard.'

Lenin never fully realized his vision for the Soviet Union (having died two years after the end of the civil war). The vanguard is a marxist concept, it is not meant as an elite. Stalin implemented it as such, this proves that under Stalin the hierarchy of autocratic tzarist Russia remained.[3]

7.'Pro says "Marxist theory states that the workers should control the means of production. Sure, you could make the claim that no nation was truly socialist if that is the standard."
I agree, and to apply that to this debate. By the standard set, no country, or person would be a "true" socialist. However, Stalin fits the definition as well as anyone else and is therefore as much a socialist as is possible.'

The resolution of this debate is on whether or not Stalin was a socialist. Socialist theory states that the working class should own the means of production. Stalin did not implement this, therefore, he is not a socialist. I believe that Jugoslavija got closest to the Marxist theory of worker-owned-means of production. Tito's self-management theory and the theory of associated labor(profit sharing policies and worker-owned industries initiated by him, Milovan Đilas, and Edvard Kardelj).[4]Most socialist nations were soviet satellites and had the same policies as the soviet union, that's why the workers didn't own the means of production in those nations. In Jugoslavija, they did.

8.'Conclusion:
Stalin established and maintained a country that implemented a theory that "'A theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole."

In the community, yes, not the state. The community being the workers. Definition of community: 'a social group of any size whose members reside in a specific locality, SHARE government, and often have a common cultural and historical heritage'[5]

References:
[1]http://www.thesaurus.com...
[2]http://en.wikipedia.org...
[3]http://en.wikipedia.org...
[4]http://en.wikipedia.org...
[5]http://dictionary.reference.com...
kasmic

Con

I will address my opponents argument's in the order in which he presented them.

1: I maintain that Communist and socialist synonyms.

"Thesauruses are in agreement as dictionary.com, Merriam-Webster, and the Oxford dictionary all agree that Communist and Socialist are synonyms. Even Pro's link on the difference between Communism and Socialism states the terms are sometimes used interchangeably."

2: My opponent concluded this argument by saying "the title was ill-conceived (please re-label it: Stalin's policies were not in line with socialist policies"

3: already addressed.

4: In response to my rebuttal on this argument Pro says "Very well, this argument shall be negated."

5: In reference to my rebuttal on this argument Pro says "Again, an ill-conceived statement. I should have been more careful. I understand if you wish to negate this argument and you are justified in doing so."

6. Pro says "Lenin never fully realized his vision for the Soviet Union (having died two years after the end of the civil war). The vanguard is a marxist concept, it is not meant as an elite. Stalin implemented it as such, this proves that under Stalin the hierarchy of autocratic tzarist Russia remained."

Here again pro concedes that Stalin did implement a vanguard, which is a Marxist concept, albeit different than the "theory."

7. Pro says "Socialist theory states that the working class should own the means of production. Stalin did not implement this, therefore, he is not a socialist."

My opponents definition from dictionary.com of socialism specifies the "community as a whole" being the owners. Merriam-Webster"s specifies the "government" as the owners. The definitions are almost exact in every other way. This suggests that within socialism there are legitimate forms wherein the "state" is the owner and legitimate forms where the "working class" are the owners of the means of production. As such, Stalin"s policies placed the ownership of the means of production in the hands of the "government." This fits as a legitimate mode of socialism.

8. Pro states "In the community, yes, not the state. The community being the workers. Definition of community: 'a social group of any size whose members reside in a specific locality, SHARE government, and often have a common cultural and historical heritage'"

It seems that our debate here is over what is covered in argument 7. I maintain that by definition there are legitimate forms of socialism where the "state" is the owner of the means of production. As Stalin"s policies promoted this, his policies are best identified as socialist.

Conclusion:

Stalin might not positively reflect the tenets of socialism/communism, and many who believe in this ideology would obviously like to disown Stalin. However, this does not change the fact that by definition his beliefs and implementation of policies are rooted in this ideology.

A perverted form of "x" is still a form of "x"
A perverted form of communism is still a form of communism.
A perverted form of socialism is still a form of socialism.

Pro"s arguments are similar to saying that the Ku Klux Klan is not Christian and that Islamic terrorists are not Islamic. However, the Ku Klux Klan is a Christian group, Islamic Terrorists are Islamic, and the policies Stalin implemented were socialist.

Thanks for reading,

Thank you Benko12345678 for this debate!
Debate Round No. 3
24 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by benko12345678 3 years ago
benko12345678
The people do...I'm all for democratic centralism
Posted by Skynet 3 years ago
Skynet
Who gets to decide who is a good shepherd? Why do they have that right?

benko12345678Because sheep need a shepherd :P
simple as that

Posted by Aithlin 1 week ago
AithlinWhy totalitarianism and anti-anarchism?
Posted by Ajabi 3 years ago
Ajabi
I have been asked by both parties to vote on this. The thing I said to both parties was I have no idea what this debate is based on, I suck at politics and so I may do an injustice to the competitors.
Posted by benko12345678 3 years ago
benko12345678
Ok, I'll do it tomorrow, right now it's 21:46 so I'm too tired to think of anything.
Posted by kasmic 3 years ago
kasmic
Benko, How about you set up another debate for us, and we can debate there.
Posted by benko12345678 3 years ago
benko12345678
Officially, yes, but the point of the debate isn't bureaucracy, it's to present a point.
Your claim that xy=x is incorrect and I would like a continuation of this debate (which is possible, it has occurred before)
However, I did enjoy this debate and I look further to debating with you again soon :P
Posted by kasmic 3 years ago
kasmic
That is the limitation of the debate structure. The debate if officially over.
Posted by benko12345678 3 years ago
benko12345678
I disagree. I didn't have a chance to refute the final round...
Posted by kasmic 3 years ago
kasmic
I feel we covered this sufficiently within the debate.
Posted by benko12345678 3 years ago
benko12345678
Just because perverted socialism is closer to socialism than any other ideology doesn't mean it fits into that category.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 3 years ago
dsjpk5
benko12345678kasmicTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro conceded some of cons points. Con showed that communism was synonymous with socialism.
Vote Placed by SamStevens 3 years ago
SamStevens
benko12345678kasmicTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: A perverted form of "x" is still a form of "x" A perverted form of communism is still a form of communism. A perverted form of socialism is still a form of socialism." I don't know of the voting policies, but I'm just going with what I originally said.