The Instigator
shakuntala
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
YaHey
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

This is a better desire poem than Sonnet 141

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
YaHey
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/7/2014 Category: Arts
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 697 times Debate No: 60104
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (8)
Votes (2)

 

shakuntala

Pro

Some claim that Sonnet 141 of Shakespeare is a great desire poem I argue that this is a better desire poem than Sonnet 141 of Shakespeare

http://www.scribd.com...

Some claim that Sonnet 141 of Shakespeare is a great desire poem
http://www.poetrysoup.com...
Sonnet 141
by: William Shakespeare
In faith, I do not love thee with mine eyes,
For they in thee a thousand errors note;
But 'tis my heart that loves what they despise,
Who in despite of view is pleased to dote.
Nor are mine cars with thy tongue's tune delighted,
Nor tender feeling to base touches prone,
Nor taste, nor smell, desire to be invited
To any sensual feast with thee alone;
But my five wits, nor my five senses can
Dissuade one foolish heart from serving thee,
Who leaves unswayed the likeness of a man,
Thy proud heart's slave and vassal wretch to be.
Only my plague thus far I count my gain,
That she that makes me sin awards me pain.

compare this from sonnet 141
"Thy proud heart's slave and vassal wretch to be.
Only my plague thus far I count my gain,
That she that makes me sin awards me pain."
Shakespeare is just stating his desire but we do not feel it experience it

now read this out aloud
" Oh that my beloved woudst show that full moon face to I
That I couldst upon that beauty myself to die
you can instantly hear the difference in emotion these lines are bursting with desire
where l Shakespeare sonnet 147 is just words- no desire at all
YaHey

Con

What we have here is a slightly ironic misunderstanding of art. Things such as movies, poetry, stories, ETC, they do not literally force a feeling onto a person. The level a person feels when partaking in any media of art is half through the artists, by effectively creating an atmosphere that the partaker can immerse themselves in, but also the job of the partaker, to be able to empathize and immerse themselves in a work of art. However, this is not always how art is done. Some works, depending on their objective, can use many means other than immersion to show a meaning. So, is Shakespeare ineffective in displaying desire, or are you failing to immerse and empathize yourself into the story?

From your language, that he is just stating desire but we do not feel it, I discern you are failing to, or cannot, empathize with the desire Shakespeare is portraying. There are many forms of desire, even in the narrower tense of sexual desire, and for many this can be a complicated subject to speak on. Your poetry focus on simplistic, almost animalistic sexual desire of "You're hot, let's get together and let me see your butt." This is fine for some, but it is rather plain and uncomplicated. Let's compare to Shakespeare's Sonnet 141.

There are multiple tiers to the feeling our narrator is dealing with. First, we have a person who sees a person with rather plain features, and could even be considered less than plain. "In faith, I do not love thee with mine eyes, For they in thee a thousand errors note". Yet, this person still has these feelings they cannot explain. "But 'tis my heart that loves what they despise, Who in despite of view is pleased to dote," "But my five wits, nor my five senses can, Dissuade one foolish heart from serving thee,". So he has such intense feelings for a person, yet he cannot explain them. Not only is he struggling with these desires, but their cause. I am sure this is something we can all empathize with.

Next, there is a bit of trouble on the part of the narrator for what exactly this person does to him. He cannot explain why he intensely desires, and he cannot help himself but to go against his own values for this person. "Only my plague thus far I count my gain, That she that makes me sin awards me pain." In conclusion, not only do we see a struggle with these intense feelings and their cause, but also with what he does in the same of these feelings. Shakespeare's poem portrays a complex but emotional desire.

How does this compare to your poetry? Well, you have the fake language down. You know just saying 'thy' and 'thee' doesn't replicate the effect of Shakespeare's poetry, right? I mean, with how many debates you have on the guy, you can't really be projecting any harder. The quote you list from your poem seems to suggest some sort of uncomfortably put suicide pact with someone's butt? What do you mean by 'full moon'? Really, your poem is trying so hard to be deep that it is kind of sad. Like I genuinely take pity on a poem. I kind of want to see it do well and for you to produce a poem that isn't completely irrelevant but I don't see that happening. The entire poem seems to be trying so hard to replicate Shakespeare that it feels forced as well as uncomfortable on the tongue. Here's an example from your poem: "
candles bright for thee does upon,this path long for thee do long?"

Thanks for the debate and I await your response.


Debate Round No. 1
shakuntala

Pro

Hi con this really just comes down to what one feels ie the experience in reciting dean and sonnet 141-forgeting all the intellectual dross

I have tried to condense the what I think is you main points down to this
you say
"From your language, that he is just stating desire but we do not feel it, I discern you are failing to, or cannot, empathize with the desire Shakespeare is portraying."
the point I made in my example was that Shakespeare sonnet 141 has no real desire or passion as you say correctly

"he is just stating desire but we do not feel "

quite correct Shakespeare is just stating desire and that is the difference between is sonnet 141 and deans poem
in deans poem we feel the desire directly from the way dean has written the poem in speaking it allowed the reciter feels hears the desire

all the reciter gets from reciting sonnet 141 is nothing just words

con says
" The entire poem [deans]seems to be trying so hard to replicate Shakespeare "
you are quite wrong there deans is as far away from sonnet 141as the sun is from the moon
there is no comparison deans poem is not trying to replicate Shakespeare's any reader can see that they are like chalk and cheese

this really just comes down to what one feels ie the experience in reciting dean and sonnet 141-forgeting all the intellectual dross
Con
I can not believe that if you have read deans poem out aloud you have not felt the desire If you cannot feel the desire in deans poem directly from the recitation then you must be stunted in some way-no offense intended

con I cannot believe that you feel desire in reading sonnet 141 if you do then I cannot believe that you were blown away by the greater desire in deans poem

that maybe so but compared to dean poem sonnet
YaHey

Con

Well, whether or not you feel desire is rather unimportant, as that is purely a subjective line of reasoning. I admit that you see no passion in Sonnet 141, but I was addressing why.

The part that you take from my quote was me stating your argument. I don't agree with that statement. I was showing you just lack the ability to connect with this artwork, but the emotion is still there. I don't often find deaths in artworks to be all that emotionally stimulating, yet I do not deny that the emotion can still be there.

The next bit of your argument stems from your "misunderstanding" of the words I chose, so I won't respond.

You can state that your poem is so very unlike Shakespeare, but I fear it isn't so. The constant use of thy, thee, and the scrambling of the English language to appear more deep and important all point to what I like to call "Shakespeare Envy".

Your last argument can be summarized with "I'm right and you must be emotionally stunted to disagree." Don't worry, by the way, I pretty much stated you were unable to connect with Sonnet 141. However, I gave support for my argument other than 'Well I am right and I can't believe you disagree'.

You have the beginning to a sentence there at the end, but it ends rather abruptly. Not sure where you were going with that.
Debate Round No. 2
shakuntala

Pro

con says
"Well, whether or not you feel desire is rather unimportant"
you are completely wrong
this is all about feeling desire -and not just intellectualizing desire-in the case of Shakespeare

What I pick up from con is his utter reluctance to go against tradition and orthodoxy to say of the, best so called poet in the English language is in this case,he is inferior to deans poem Shakespeare has been elevated to such to god status such that other better works are ignored

I will hazard a guess and say con does feel the desire in deans poem more than in sonnet 141- but he is so for fearful of loosing credibility from the standard view orthodoxy that he wont say so

con says
"You can state that your poem is so very unlike Shakespeare, but I fear it isn't so"
what rubbish
I could say dean is like Milton as Milton uses "thy" in many of his sonnets
YaHey

Con

We are two beings arguing over a subjective matter. I am trying to show, in the most objective way possible, the emotion in how the desire is presented.

You say something next about how I elevate Shakespeare to a God status. I'm actually not that big of a fan of Shakespeare. I like his work, and I think his work is better than yours, but I haven't read one of his plays all the way through.

I'm not an art critic, I have absolutely no standing in the field of art whatsoever. My opinions on Shakespeare will not threaten my standing in any circle. Thanks for saying I am lying and being dishonest, though. I always love it when you do that. Though you must wonder if thou doth protest too much?

I am not saying that is is bad to try and borrow off Shakespeare. He has a recognizable style and an effective one at that. However, most people don't have the arrogance to say that they are better than Shakespeare.

May I remind you the BoP is on you to show that your poetry is better than Sonnet 141. I'd suggest actually making an argument next round.
Debate Round No. 3
shakuntala

Pro

so in conclusion
con says
"We are two beings arguing over a subjective matter. I am trying to show, in the most objective way possible, the emotion in how the desire is presented."

and that it is point of the whole debate
Shakespeare is just talking about desire objectively
and
dean
is creating desire as an experience of reading the poem ie subjectively

con misses the whole point
as for con its about how desire is presented-objectively- even though that presentation lacks desire
on the contrary deans presentation -subjective- take as into the subjective feelings of the person in the poem such that we can feel what he feels-desire

cons position takes as to the heart of Western poetry in general which is wholly intellectual no soul no spirit no emotion just the presentation of these emotions objectively in words

so the voters have a choice-
either
you vote for con then you are voting for presentation- over emotion-the intellectual
or
you vote for pro and vote for the experience of desire-the emotional

do you read poetry for an intellectual thrill ie objective-then vote con
or
do you read poetry to FEEL the emotion have an emotional experience ie subjective-then vote pro

do you read poetry just to hear about desire-objective -then vote con
or
do you read poetry to feel desires -subjective then vote pro

I thank con for this debate
cheers
YaHey

Con

You misrepresent my argument. I am talking about whether or not desire and empotion is in Shakespeare's poem, not that he presents it in a matter of fact manner. In fact, I don't think you understand what subjective and objective means. Feelings are, by definition, subjective. There are no subjective feelings, just feelings.

I demonstrated the complexity in the desire and the emotions present. If you could go a debate without putting words in my mouth, I'd appreciate it.

You didn't show that Shakespeare is only presenting emotion, and you didn't show that you are presenting more.
Debate Round No. 4
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by Ajabi 2 years ago
Ajabi
Still after a quick read shakuntala I suspect you did not stand a chance. Perhaps you could do a Poetry Competition with another member of the site? Or create a forum in the Arts Section.
Posted by Ajabi 2 years ago
Ajabi
Ahhh shakuntala this time you have made a good resolution, I will read and vote on this later.
Posted by KhalifV 2 years ago
KhalifV
Why YahHey? -.-
I'm sure you could be doing something more productive LOL
Posted by YaHey 2 years ago
YaHey
You may find this shocking, but really only you want to talk about "dean's" poetry. If you are perpetually stuck on your poetry, at least compare it to someone who isn't dead. Maybe have an event where you compare poetry with another poet on the site
Posted by shakuntala 2 years ago
shakuntala
fact is deans poem is a better desire poem if you disagree then give some arguments
Posted by KhalifV 2 years ago
KhalifV
God dammnit. Not again.
Posted by shakuntala 2 years ago
shakuntala
fact is deans poem is a better desire poem if you disagree then give some arguments
Posted by YaHey 2 years ago
YaHey
Shakespeare is dead please don't insult him by comparing yourself to him.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by KhalifV 2 years ago
KhalifV
shakuntalaYaHeyTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro failed to meet BoP. This is a subjective manner, yet CON strove to be objective and hat better arguments.
Vote Placed by bladerunner060 2 years ago
bladerunner060
shakuntalaYaHeyTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro had the BoP. "Better" is an inherently subjective claim, and I did not find Pro's case in support of his poem as "better" to be compelling. He made claims about his poem that require my subjective determination. And, for example, using "I" just to rhyme with "die" does not induce any "better" emotional response from me. As such, Pro has failed. Arguments to Con. As always, happy to clarify this RFD.