The Instigator
shakuntala
Pro (for)
Tied
18 Points
The Contender
Ajabi
Con (against)
Tied
18 Points

This must be the greatest love poem ever

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 11 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/29/2014 Category: Arts
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,356 times Debate No: 59695
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (9)
Votes (11)

 

shakuntala

Pro

This must be the greatest love poem ever
http://www.scribd.com...

this poem by Shakespeare is number one for the 10 The Greatest Love Poetry of All Time

http://www.poemofquotes.com...

Sonnet 116
"Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove:
O no; it is an ever-fixed mark,
That looks on tempests, and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wandering bark,
Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.
Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle's compass come;
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved. "

now this poem by dean is full of more longing more passion more love than this boring sonnet 116

extract
"Breathe thy hot breath into my ear
Breathe thy hot breath that I can hear the pounding of thy heart for I to hear thy soul cry out for I
Linger on my neck
Linger on my neck with thy soft kiss kiss my neck with the soft touch of thy soul linger linger and sigh out thy soul o"er the flesh of I with thy soft kiss breathe out thy love for I from the soul of thine warm my flesh burn my flesh with the hot passion of thine
Oh oh give me thy soul along the flesh of I give me thy soul to make my eyes to cry my love for thee oh come beloved and make my heart to thud and my veins to sing with thy lips make my ears ring with the love thee does to I do bring oh oh ever so slowly run thy lips o"er the neck of I kiss dabbing dab dab dabbing "
Ajabi

Con

Hello again shakuntala! Why have I once more accepted your debate? It is because I feel it is necessary that someone competent does so, so perhaps one day you will stop this madness.

Now firstly I think it is necessary to understand that this link starts off with analysis which is not a poem, a small ridiculous part is quoted here:

'Shakespeares lines are lifeless dead nothing ofhis heart comes through only his mind is talkinghe is not speaking from a heart of love but onlyfrom a mind that intellectualizes love his belovedwould feel nothing from Shakespeare except hisattempt to be clever.'

Quite the assertion, I will not debate on the analysis because the resolution, and the rules imply that the poem written by Colin Leslie Dean, the one you quoted, is the the best poem. I believe it is pertinent to start off with some analysis regarding the burden of proof. As this is a substantive motion, which means that the word 'must' is used shakuntala must show that beyond any degree that this poem by C. L. Dean is the best poem ever.

With that I accept this debate and eagerly await my opponent's opening argumentation.
Debate Round No. 1
shakuntala

Pro

hi Ajabi nice to meet you again cheers

con say
" shakuntala must show that beyond any degree that this poem by C. L. Dean is the best poem ever. "

point 1
I am comparing deans poem to sonnet 116-which it is claimed by some to be the best love poem ever
so if I can show why deans love poem is better then sonnet 116 I have shown why deans love poem is the best ever

so lets start with a definition of love
http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
1. A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness.
2. A feeling of intense desire and attraction toward a person with whom one is disposed to make a pair; the emotion of sex and romance.
3.
a. Sexual passion.
b. Sexual intercourse.

so words like desire feelings of affection sexual desire romance are keys to anylising both poems
so
point 1
sonnet 116
has no desire feelings of affection sexual desire

proof
constrast these lines of Shakespeare
"Sonnet 116
"Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds"
these are lifless words evoking no passion no desire

now see dean poem
Breathe thy hot breath into my ear
Breathe thy hot breath that I can hear the pounding of thy heart for I to hear thy soul cry out for I

where Shakespeares is lifeless no passion
we can hear the desire the passion in these lines

or again these lines
oh come beloved and make my heart to thud and my veins to sing with thy lips make my ears ring with the love thee does to I do bring oh oh ever so slowly run thy lips o"er the neck of I

now for sexual passion
tual passion in sonnet 116
but in deans poem these line

I be the fig mushy soft for the lips of thee
press thy tongue into me slip its tip up my slit and languidly slither it along the scarlet crease
run that tongue of thee along the Ganges stream of me
run that tongue of thee thru the frothy foam that flows fromst my pink rimmed hole to froth o"er the earth like streaming milk white-like like moonlight coating the earth in silvery frost

nothing of a sexual tone is found in Shakespeare

so based on the meaning of love "desire" "passion" "feelings " "sexual passion" deans poem is superior to Shakespeare
thus
making deans poem the best ever

what con has to do is show us where "desire" "passion" "feelings" and "sexual passion" are in sonnet 116 and show us why -if he can find them- Shakespeare rendition of them is super to deans
Ajabi

Con

Greetings shakuntala!

Now I would like to start with some burden of proof analysis. My opponent has taken a nearly impossible burden upon himself. The resolution states: 'This must be the greatest love poem ever', where shakuntala is Proposition. Now shakuntala could do two things: he could compare C. L. Dean's poem to every other poem in the word which talks about love, or he could establish an objective standard to appraise the poem. Both are equally ridiculous, because in the first case it would take many years, and we have but 10, 000 characters here, and in the second case because there is a subjectivity to literature which is not found in the sciences. To say that this poem "must" be the best brings forth an objectivity, may I recommend that shakuntala make the title with "may" the next time. Or with on balance so the other person has to bring about a competing poem.

Now if you will argue ex vi termini, you need to assume a proper definition. Your use of the definition may be different to other people. You see for me the first part is the most important, and there are many poems which embody this lonliness, this longing, or this passion more beautifully than C. L. Dean's poem.

So shakuntala's first point is that Shakespeare's words are lifeless. Again that is his subjective opinion, and one may in any case argue that the words are anything but lifeless. Shakespeare says: 'Let me not to the marriage of true minds, admit impediments. Love is not love, which alters when alteration finds.' Now this is a beautiful embodiment of love, and what it stands for. How it overcomes the quirks and the faults of other people and transcends that. This stanza brings in a person great amounts of emotion, something which Dean's poem also does, granted, but it would be foolish to compare the two. Not because Dean's lines are bad, but because they are both subjectively impressive, but Shakespeare more than Dean. When one reads Shakespeare one's heart erupts into tears.

Dean assumes that Shakespeare's poem must contain sexual contact to be a love poem. That is untrue, and as I stated if shakuntala wishes to argue ex vi termini he must first prove his definition.

Now poems are based on love's longing, and care, and while shakuntala cannot show that Dean's poem is the best, it is better than his other works.

I leave you with a poem which is again full of longing:

'And wilt thou leave me thus?
Say nay, say nay, for shame,
To save thee from the blame
Of all my grief and grame;
And wilt thou leave me thus?
Say nay, say nay!

And wilt thou leave me thus,
That hath loved thee so long
In wealth and woe among?
And is thy heart so strong
As for to leave me thus?
Say nay, say nay!

And wilt thou leave me thus,
That hath given thee my heart
Never for to depart,
Nother for pain nor smart;
And wilt thou leave me thus?
Say nay, say nay!

And wilt thou leave me thus
And have no more pity
Of him that loveth thee?
H"las, thy cruelty!
And wilt thou leave me thus?
Say nay, say nay!'
-Sir Thomas Wyatt

Faithfully Yours,
Ajab.
Debate Round No. 2
shakuntala

Pro

hi Ajabi
con says
"I leave you with a poem which is again full of longing:

'And wilt thou leave me thus?
Say nay, say nay, for shame,
To save thee from the blame
Of all my grief and grame;
And wilt thou leave me thus?
Say nay, say nay!....

WOW yes a very beautiful poem did you write it ? or who did write it - it is great

con says
"Now I would like to start with some burden of proof analysis. My opponent has taken a nearly impossible burden upon himself. The resolution states: 'This must be the greatest love poem ever', where shakuntala is Proposition"

As stated sonnet 116 is considered one of the greatest love poems ever
all I have to do is show deans poem is better than sonnet 116 and then I have proved my position

I have given that proof in my previous post
1)con has not given us reasons why my analysis is wrong

so at the moment all we have from con are assertions but no proof of those assertion-that proof will involve him giving some analysis of deans and Shakespeare sonnet 116

if con does not back up his assertions with proof then I must win the debate
Ajabi

Con

Ajabi forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
shakuntala

Pro

well con has not replied to my request for proof of his assertions
thus I must win this debate
thank you Ajabi for your time
Ajabi

Con

I do apologize for the forfeit. My opponent deserves the Conduct points but I still deserve the argumentation points for the simple reason that my opponent had the burden of proof and the motion is clear: 'this must be the greatest love poem ever'. It means that shakuntala had to show that C. Dean's poem is the greatest which he did not.

My argument regarding subjectivity stands. My argument about what constitutes greatness in literature, because of subjectivity was never answered. Also my argument about how Dean's poem is too material is also unrefuted.

I therefore state, the resolution collapses.
Debate Round No. 4
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Ajabi 3 years ago
Ajabi
Absolutely
Posted by bossyburrito 3 years ago
bossyburrito
This is a prime example of why you should never use the 7-point system.
Posted by bossyburrito 3 years ago
bossyburrito
Jesus Christ.
Posted by Ajabi 3 years ago
Ajabi
Shakespeare would not be Shakespeare had he written that poem. Shakespeare was made famous because of his works, if Colin Leslie Dean was at the level of Shakespeare then C. L. Dean would not be famous. I mean if we can have an illiterate, two class stage actor being the most famous English playwright, then we can have a college graduate become one too. It depends on the level of poetry.
Posted by kbub 3 years ago
kbub
I would have been very bothered had Shakespeare written that poem.
Posted by shakuntala 3 years ago
shakuntala
Fact is if Shakespeare had written these poems-by dean- you all would not be bothered
but
seeing they are written by a no body you can them
how interesting the very same poems value depends on who has written it

if it was discovered that these poems were Shakespeare in an instant you would change your opinion
Posted by 9spaceking 3 years ago
9spaceking
what a noob-snipe.
Posted by shakuntala 3 years ago
shakuntala
i bet if you thought this was Shakespeare you would not say stop-even if it was this was his poetry
Posted by Eggsample 3 years ago
Eggsample
Again? Stop Colin. For the love of life just stop
11 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by thett3 3 years ago
thett3
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Reasons for voting decision: CVB Bossyburrito
Vote Placed by bossyburrito 3 years ago
bossyburrito
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Reasons for voting decision: This is a ridiculous example of mass-vote-bombing and you all should be ashamed of yourselves. Cast legitimate and serious RFDs or don't vote at all - don't destroy the integrity of the site over some grudge.
Vote Placed by Mikal 3 years ago
Mikal
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Reasons for voting decision: there was not enough porn in this debate. I would have liked to see the graphic description of how its possible to make a girl scream in pleasure. The description of the c**nt was not detailed enough. I would liked to have imagined how you were pleasuring her. Also the pole comparison to a D**k was week. The blowjob theme needed to be more graphic as well
Vote Placed by JohnMaynardKeynes 3 years ago
JohnMaynardKeynes
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Reasons for voting decision: Null.
Vote Placed by bluesteel 3 years ago
bluesteel
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Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit
Vote Placed by kinsky 3 years ago
kinsky
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Reasons for voting decision: Ok, i ned to be quick here. No BoP fulfillment met from Pro due to ridiculous resolution (the GREATEST...). Conduct to pRO CUS OF FROFIET FROM CON. In a way, pro didt have good enough arguments, some were pointed by con to have some flaws. Maybe if Pro had the resolutions (...one of the greatest love poems ever...) it might have been easier to win.
Vote Placed by NiamC 3 years ago
NiamC
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Reasons for voting decision: ... This is my first vote on a debate about poetry, how interesting. I will first award conduct points to Pro given con's single forfeit. I will secondly address the matter of S&G: There were some bad issues of grammar from Pro, along with some spelling errors that bugged me such as "constrast" and some others. I also feel that the overall presentation and argument structure wasn't that great imho. I also feel that more quantity could have been put into both sides. Now, onto arguments: I have to say that i was surprised at the resolution; to prove such a thing would be ridiculously hard - especially if pro has to do so if he has the BOP to fulfill (which he had to do). Some parts of Pro's arguments were seemed to be partly fuelled by subjectivity and was heavily opinionated. Con did not directly pro's arguments but instead decided to analyse and point out the important flaws in his argument - such as him comparing it to only 1 poem was not strong enough. Character max has been reac
Vote Placed by SeventhProfessor 3 years ago
SeventhProfessor
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro's definition of love clearly shows that his poems meet it better than Shakespeare's. Con FF'd a round.
Vote Placed by FourTrouble 3 years ago
FourTrouble
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro made some very strong arguments. First, he strategically limited the definition of love to desire, passion, etc. Then, he showed how Shakespeare's poem lacks these qualities whereas the poem by Dean possessed them. Under Pro's definition of love, Pro wins arguments. Pro also wins conduct because Con forfeited a round.
Vote Placed by Blade-of-Truth 3 years ago
Blade-of-Truth
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Reasons for voting decision: Conduct goes to Pro for the forfeit by Con in R4. S&G goes to Con as Pro's grammar and general structure of presentation was poor in quality throughout the entire debate. Arguments goes to Con due to Pro taking a nearly impossible burden and failing to uphold it. Con showed the flaws in Pro's approach in regards to attempting to compare it to solely one other poem and the impossibility of comparing it to literally every other poem of similar nature throughout the entire world. I would suggest Pro steer away from Absolute claims like the nature of this resolution. It gives Pro an impossible burden to overcome. For more information on Absolute Claims for clarification purposes, please visit the link: http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=9952ba14-49e2-4be3-abb9-8d30de445c8d