The Instigator
wjmelements
Con (against)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
scissorhands7
Pro (for)
Winning
20 Points

'This statement is false' is a true statement.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
scissorhands7
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/19/2008 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,177 times Debate No: 5754
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
Votes (4)

 

wjmelements

Con

Alright!
Is the phrase, "This statement is false", false ?

Should we assume it is true, then the statement would be false.
So, the statement cannot be true.

I will elaborate in later rounds.
scissorhands7

Pro

Introductory Remarks]

I would like to thank my opponent for a refreshingly new debate topic,

My opponent seeks to resolve that the statement: "This statement is false" is a false statement.

[Definitions]

True - consistent with fact or reality

False - Inconsistent with fact or reality

[Primary Arguments]

1. While on the premises of my opponents it appears (colloquially) on both sides of the coin that this statement can only be false. However upon further review this hypothesis is rendered null.

The reason?

If a statement made by an individual is truly incorrect, and if a person observing said statement were to make a reply regarding said statement, then the validity of the statement: "This statement is false." (in response to an incorrect statement) is correct.

So in this instance the statement: "This statement is false" is proven to be a correct, and thus is a true statement.

Since I have rendered this situation true, I have thus proven the validity of the statement: "This statement is false"

While this should be enough to win the argument, I will further attack my opponent's statement.

2. Additionally this statement can also be false. So if my opponents objective is to resolve that the statement "This statement is false" can be false, then I do have to say that I concede this point. However if my opponent resolution (as I believe it is) is to prove that the statement: "This statement is false" can never be true, then I do have to contest this argument.

[Closing Remarks]

I would like to thank my opponent for his interesting subject, and look forward to his additional explanation of his resolution and further suppositions of his main argument.
Debate Round No. 1
wjmelements

Con

I accept my opponent's definitions.
By these definitions, something not completely true is false. Something cannot be partially true.

1. My opponent has declared that that if the statement were referring to someone else's statement, then it would be true. However, 'This statement' is referring to the statement, 'This statement is false', and not someone else's statement.

For further referrence, 'This statement' is referring to 'This statement is false'. Otherwise, it would have been, 'That statement is false'.

2. And my point was, "Should we assume it is true, then the statement would be false.
So, the statement cannot be true."
The debate over whether the situation can be true or not has been decided. My opponent cannot win. However, if I cannot prove that this statement is always false, then I cannot win, either.

Here's the reasoning behind 'This statement' always being false:
The opposite of a true statement is always false, but the opposite of a false statement can be either true or false, depending on the situation.
For example,
If 'That man is legally overweight' is a true statement, then 'That man is legally underweight' is a false statement.
If 'The sky is currently blue' is a true statement', then 'The sky is not currently blue' is a false statement.

So, a true statement's opposite is always false.

However, a false statement's opposite is not always false:
If 'That man is legally underweight' is a false statement, then 'That man is legally overweight' is not necessarily a true statement.

The opposite of 'This statment is false' is 'This statement is true'.

From here, we'll run this statement as initially true and initially false.

If 'This statement is true' is assumed to be true, then the statement further declares its truth and then it's opposite is always false. Therefore, 'This statement is false' must be false.

If 'This statement is true' is assumed to be false, then the statement being false is false its assertion that it is true. It is then completely false. Following earlier reasoning, the opposite of that statement is not necessarily true or false.

Based on probability, the statement, 'This statement is false' is false three quarters of the time and true a quarter of the time. Therefore, it being not completely true, it is false.

Using reason, one must conclude that 'This statement is false' is a false statement.
scissorhands7

Pro

I would like to thank my opponent for his timely rebuttal

1. Ahh, I understand. This debate is essentially about proving the truth of a paradox. I would like to apologize to the voters and my opponent for misunderstanding the topic of the debate.

Logical Proof of the truth of the statement: "This statement is false"

So the hypothesis that it is true leads to the contradiction that it is false. Yet the sentence cannot be false for that hypothesis also leads to contradiction. If the statement is false, then what it says about itself is not true. It says that it is false, so that must not be true. Hence, it is true.

Therefore by using strict logic I have shown how the statement: "This statement is false" is indeed a true statement.

To give a more detailed example of this.

We could easily re-write the statement: "This statement is false"

To "This statement is only false" (consequentially the point that my opponent is attempting to prove)
However The statement: "This statement is only false" is false. Creating a contradiction.

However, that the liar sentence can be shown to be true if it is false and false if it is true which leads me to believe that the statement: "This statement is false" is neither true nor false.

While my opponent has accepted my definition of truth which is that "something cannot be partially true"
He has thus in turn accepted that the definition of false (truth's antonym) which means that "something cannot be partially false" to be false.

Therefore as I have shown the statement "This statement is false" shows a partiality of truth. While I cannot prove that the statement itself is not Truthful in entirety, I have shown that the statement "This statement is false" cannot be completely false and thus is not false by definition.

My opponent has been attempting to turn this debate into a debate of semantics where everything has a black and white value, but no gray. As is clear in life, sometimes gray values are the truth (being consistent with fact or reality)

Therefore I would like to ask voters to see through the fog, and realize that the statement "This statement is false" is neither true or false but is neither. Such as all things are not black or white, but mostly a shade of gray.

My opponent is attempting to point at a grey value and prove that it is black. However do not be deceived.

I would like to thank my opponent for an interesting subject that I'm sure will provide many insight into the basic foundations of logic. I send my opponent my respects and I look forward to my opponents final round.
Debate Round No. 2
wjmelements

Con

wjmelements forfeited this round.
scissorhands7

Pro

Its unfortunate that my opponent could not debate in this final round. I'm sure that he was merely experiencing a busy week. We've all had to deal with this. Therefore I'd like to ask the voters of this debate to forgive my opponent for missing this debate.

Since nothing further needs to be dealt with on the topic, I would like to note to the voters that my opponent (who has the burden of proof in this debate) has not fully proven the statement: "This statement is false" to be fully false. Therefore I would like to kindly suggest that voters vote Pro in this debate.

Thank you once again to my opponent for an interesting topic and thank you for reading this debate.
Please leave reasons for your votes in the comments section.
Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by wjmelements 8 years ago
wjmelements
Thank you.
Posted by wjmelements 8 years ago
wjmelements
Unvote yourself, and I won't vote either.
Posted by scissorhands7 8 years ago
scissorhands7
I did just to see if joshandr30 would cancel it out. I can set it back to nothing if you'd like.
Posted by wjmelements 8 years ago
wjmelements
Yes, two voters gave me efvery vote. Did you vote? If you did, I will.
Posted by scissorhands7 8 years ago
scissorhands7
Vote bombing again
Posted by wjmelements 8 years ago
wjmelements
However, I was not able to put out this argument.
Posted by wjmelements 8 years ago
wjmelements
We should take this debate and turn it into another 5 round debate that has a 72 hour response period so that I can't be sick through it.

I could have pointed to it and said that something has to be entirely true to be considered true.
Then, by using the definitions, I could have concluded that because it is not entirely true, then it is not true and thus false.
Posted by wjmelements 8 years ago
wjmelements
I sincerely apologize for missing round 3. I am sick and band is taking hours out of my week.
Posted by asyetundefined 8 years ago
asyetundefined
The argument so far has been quite constructive on both parts- Very professional- I wait anxiously for the end result!
Posted by scissorhands7 8 years ago
scissorhands7
victim
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by wjmelements 8 years ago
wjmelements
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Vote Placed by Mangani 8 years ago
Mangani
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Vote Placed by JBlake 8 years ago
JBlake
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Vote Placed by Robert_Santurri 8 years ago
Robert_Santurri
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