The Instigator
Ozzyhead
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points
The Contender
Truth_seeker
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

"Thou shalt not kill" should be changed to "killing is negotiable"

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Ozzyhead
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/25/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,013 times Debate No: 55395
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (9)
Votes (2)

 

Ozzyhead

Pro

Acceptance in round one please. This debate is really about the fact that God doesn't care about killing. This God being the God behind the commandment. I bare the whole burden of proof
Debate Round No. 1
Ozzyhead

Pro

The bible shows God doing or condoning the killings of many, to the tune of 20 million people. There are plenty of stories of God killing or sending others to kill in his name. The bible also has commandments regarding the killing of people who fall under certain categories (please note that a commandment is not just 1 of 10 commandments. There are 10 commandments in stone, but there are a total of 613 commandments in the old testament).
Let's get in to the examples of God condoning the killings of people:
-Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
-You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Sorceress would be our idea of witches
- If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives. (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
- A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
- Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
- All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
- If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
- A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
- Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
- They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
- Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
- But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)


There are a handful more examples, but I will move on to God doing the killings himself


- From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
- And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
- Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)
-
The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)
Now, looking at the Old Testament and New Testament, we can see God commanding the death of many, and God doing the killing. Before the argument of Old Testament gets thrown out, let's talk about how Jesus wanted the Old Testament to be enforced. Matthew 5:18 quotes Jesus saying "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished." This is one version, so let me display multiple versions as well as cross references in the Bible:
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished (NIV)
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God's law will disappear until its purpose is achieved (NLT)
For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. (ESV)
For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. (NASB)
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (KJV)
For I assure you: Until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or one stroke of a letter will pass from the law until all things are accomplished. (HCSB)
Because I tell all of you with certainty that until heaven and earth disappear, not one letter or one stroke of a letter will disappear from the Law until everything has been accomplished. (ISV)
Tell you the truth, until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the law until everything takes place. (NET Bible)


A few cross references in the Bible
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. (Matthew 24:35)
The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God endures forever. (Isaiah 40:8)

God condones the murder and does the murdering several times.
Truth_seeker

Con

The Hebrew word for "kill" in the Old Testament is "Ratsach" which means "to murder or kill."

This verb is not used when referring to war.

Joshua 10:19

"19 And stay ye not, but pursue after your enemies, and smite (Zanab Strong's #H2179) the hindmost of them; suffer them not to enter into their cities: for the Lord your God hath delivered them into your hand."

The word "Nakah" simply means to kill and is used in Joshua 10:28-32, but never is the word Ratsach used.

Here are verses having the word "Ratsach":

Exodus 20:13

"You shall not kill (Ratsach)"

Num. 35:6

"6 And among the cities which ye shall give unto the Levites there shall be six cities for refuge, which ye shall appoint for the manslayer (Ratsach), that he may flee thither: and to them ye shall add forty and two cities."

v. 11 "11 Then ye shall appoint you cities to be cities of refuge for you; that the slayer (Ratsach) may flee thither, which killeth any person at unawares."

v. 16 "16 And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer (Ratsach): the murderer shall surely be put to death."

Old Testament scholar, Laird Harris wrote this about Ratsach:

"ratsach is a purely Hebrew term. It has no clear cognate in any of the contemporary tongues. The root occurs thirty-eight times in the OT, with fourteen occurrences in Num 35. The initial use of the root appears in the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:13). In that important text it appears in the simple Qal stem with the negative adverb, "You shall not murder," being a more precise reading than the too-general KJV "thou shalt not kill."" (Harris etc, Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, #2208)

Thus killing done under God's command and God killing the wicked is not murder, but is justified.
Debate Round No. 2
Ozzyhead

Pro

Those arguments do not soundly dispute what I have put as my argument. God commanded killing and did the killing on numerous occasions and still demands those commandments be carried out to this date for anyone who lies with another man, anyone who is a supposed witch, anyone who disobeys a preist or their parents, any woman that is not a virgin on the day of her wedding. Many examples that I posted said "put to death". And one's own rule is not justification for that rule. God's rule is not justification for any sort of killings. And the main idea behind this is that God doesn't care about killing. God doesn't care if you kill someone. Chances are, they sinned, so kill anyone. A LARGE handful of women are not virgins on the day of their wedding, homosexuals are running around everywhere (which is perfectly okay), many people fight with their parents, many people don't listen to the preist, and many, many people are preaching things of other religions, and in a town where someone is preaching the teachings of another religion, the whole town must be put to death. So, if someone were to kill, they wouldn't be doing anything wrong in the lord's eyes.
Truth_seeker

Con

"Those arguments do not soundly dispute what I have put as my argument. God commanded killing and did the killing on numerous occasions and still demands those commandments be carried out to this date for anyone who lies with another man, anyone who is a supposed witch, anyone who disobeys a preist or their parents, any woman that is not a virgin on the day of her wedding."

These arguments completely dispute Pro's argument. Exodus 20:13 is a commandment against murder which is the malignant and selfish attempt to take someone's life without a good reason, not killing. Pro fails to provide evidence from the Bible that we are to kill those who have sinned against God by breaking his Laws. Murder is clearly wrong based on the Hebrew of Exodus 20:13, therefore murder is wrong and killing in the Old Testament was commanded, not negotiable as Pro had pointed out to wipe out evil from the land.
Debate Round No. 3
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Geogeer 3 years ago
Geogeer
I so would take this in a heartbeat if I wasn't already in 2 debates with a promise to someone to debate once those are done.
Posted by Jonbonbon 3 years ago
Jonbonbon
Too much clarification needed. If anyone, including me, has to ask more than one question in the comments to clarify a debate, I'm either not going to accept or I'm going to troll with some semantics.
Posted by whiteflame 3 years ago
whiteflame
So then, you would accept the burden of having to show that a specific deity (probably the Christian god) has no problem with killing in the slightest, or are you intending to show that said deity is willing to allow some killing in certain instances?
Posted by Ozzyhead 3 years ago
Ozzyhead
And if you say 'the accepted' then that means that humans have changed it and it's not God's word.
Posted by Ozzyhead 3 years ago
Ozzyhead
No, murder is still under this
Posted by neutral 3 years ago
neutral
Th generally accepted phrase is thou shalt not murder.

That is what lead to the Catholic Church's creation of the Just War doctrine.

It would help if you atheists got a premise correct enough to debate it in the first place.
Posted by Ozzyhead 3 years ago
Ozzyhead
My claim is that the deity behind the bible, if said deity exists, does not care about killing
Posted by Cold-Mind 3 years ago
Cold-Mind
Biblical God: "Thou shalt not kill, that is my job" :D
Posted by whiteflame 3 years ago
whiteflame
...I thought I understood this from reading the topic, but after reading the R1 post, I'm a bit lost. Are you arguing that the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" should be changed by human beings to "Killing is negotiable," or are you arguing that the monotheistic deity who supposedly created that commandment doesn't really care about killing? Clarify your burden in this debate. Is it to support killing in certain instances? Is it to show that said deity, from what we know of him/her/it, does not care about killing? Is it to show that religions have been hypocritical in their views on killing? It could be any of these from what I'm seeing.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Kc1999 3 years ago
Kc1999
OzzyheadTruth_seekerTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro cited Bible sources that said that "God will kill and shall always kill" The opponent contradicts himself by using "murder" instead of kill. Murder might be symbolic; he even accepts that by stating that Ratasch has no clear modern cognate. No one used sources. Spelling was equal. GJ to you both.
Vote Placed by Sagey 3 years ago
Sagey
OzzyheadTruth_seekerTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Overall it was close, but Con forgets that most translations of the Bible use Kill and not the actual translation Murder, so the common perception of the Bible would be more likely Pro's perception of Hypocritical scripture and a Hypocritical God. Thus the Bible according to Pro is setting confusing precedents.