The Instigator
mds1303
Pro (for)
Tied
7 Points
The Contender
Demosthenes
Con (against)
Tied
7 Points

Tim Tebow will be a starting NFL quarterback in 3 years (or less).

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/14/2010 Category: Sports
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,478 times Debate No: 11182
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
Votes (2)

 

mds1303

Pro

I would like to take Demosthenes for taking this debate. I look forward to debating about the future of Tim Tebow's career in the NFL, or perhaps lack thereof from your perspective.

I am new to debates since this is my first official one so please bear with me.

I would like to start off by saying that Tim Tebow will be an NFL quarterback within the next 3 years. We are not debating whether or not he will be a great qb in the nfl, but merely good enough to be a starter.

I am not sure if any other ground rules need to be laid. I will let my opponent begin with his argument. Thanks.
Demosthenes

Con

Since it's hard to quantify whether he will start on an NFL team as the league is constantly changes AND the 2011 season might be locked out, this will be a totally hypothetical debate. Also injuries and trades may decide whether he starts or not, we will debate whether he will be an EFFECTIVE NFL STARTER in 3 years.

Tebow has 3 problems that he MUST solve before he will be an NFL-level starter; First, his delivery. Second, his accuracy, and last, his tendency to run instead of standing in the pocket and waiting for opportunities to in the passing game instead of tucking the ball and running.

That said, I should define what I mean when I say accuracy, delivery and what will be termed "pocket presence" from now on.

Delivery - the decision to pass and the action to pass.
Accuracy - the ability to place the ball where the receiver has the advantage against coverage with both precision and timing
Pocket presence - The natural/ learned ability to feel pressure, stay focused, and avoid both the pass rush and make a good decision under pressure

1. His delivery - Commonly called a three quarter delivery, Tim Tebow consistently throws in a very slow, inelegant, and VERY easy to read fashion. Because his delivery is so long and slow, it is very easy for above average corners (of which there are MANY in the NFL now) to read his motion, see where he is looking, and and make a play on the ball. We'll come back to this, as it has other consequences. But for now, suffice it to say his delivery is NOT ready for the pro level where the game is MUCH faster and MUCH less forgiving to QBs.

2. His accuracy - With such an emphasis being placed on the deep ball in many NFL offenses as a way to protect a sub par running game or a need to score quickly or simply by virtue of having an excellent deep threat receiver. Tebow has not shown that he is capable of reliably and consistently hitting the longer passes, nor has he shown a consistent ability to hit the mid-range passes which EVERY NFL QB is REQUIRED to be able to complete. He also has had problems with hitting receivers in stride, which is something that an average NFL starter is usually able to complete, and lastly his passes are often vulnerable to wind as he has a lot of work to do on the tightness of his throws.

3. Pocket presence - With the way the system he ran at the University of Florida so strongly centered around his ability to run, it remains to be seen whether he is capable of putting aside his almost instinctual desire to tuck the ball and lower his shoulder in an attempt to simply run for a large gain. In the NFL, he will not be running against corners and linebackers used to defending spread offenses like those he played against in college, who tend to be undersized and more focused on speed and agility. Instead, he will be running against stronger, harder-hitting NFL defenders and he probably will not have a long or successful career if he tries to run in the same vein he did in
Debate Round No. 1
mds1303

Pro

mds1303 forfeited this round.
Demosthenes

Con

As my opponent did not post a round 2 argument, I'm just going to make a few more points.

1. Tim Tebow is used to being the #1 option in an offense which he most assuredly will NEVER be on any NFL team, as he is neither an exceptional passer nor an exceptional runner. This could be extremely difficult for a player to adjust to and probably will hamper his development, as he has become accustomed to offensive decisions and strategy centered around him as both a QB and a running back, which will MOST ASSUREDLY not happen in the NFL.

2. It is possible that Tim Tebow has actually peaked as a player; One of his greatest strengths is his dedication to his game and to improvement, something he received high praise for in college. But in the last 2 years when improving his delivery and his pocket presence could have been shown to be important to him KNOWING that a player of his fame and his talent will be highly scouted in the NFL, he showed no real improvement in either department both of which are CENTRAL to NFL scouts when making decisions on a QB. It is possible that we are seeing the way Tim Tebow will always play QB, and that he may have been a great college QB but is never going to be an NFL starter.

In short, 3 years is not enough time for a player who has as much to improve on and revamp as Tim Tebow will have to. He will need AT LEAST 5 years behind an accomplished, technically sound NFL-style QB in addition to an OUTSTANDING quarterback coach on whatever team he joins in order to become as effective as an average NFL starter. He has things to learn that are beyond technical as well, and that will take another 2-3 years unless he starts right away (which would be a mistake lest he fall back into his college game when things start going poorly as they invariably will for every young QB).
Debate Round No. 2
mds1303

Pro

I would like to thank my opponent for his arguments, and will begin by refuting his claims. Hopefully, missing a round will prove minor due to the fact that Tim Tebow has already done the work for me in this argument by being arguably one of the best College Players of ALL time.

His Delivery- I will concede the fact that his delivery is not a textbook delivery for NFL quarterbacks. However, I believe he has already showed improvement on his throwing motion, as can be seen during his brief time being coached by former Lions QB coach, Scott Loeffler. Tebow has tweaked his throwing motion, turning his sidearm delivery into more of an over-the-top motion. Seeing this change in such a short amount of time helps support the fact that he can further change his motion in time, if necessary. The question remains to be seen if it is indeed necessary. Looking at another QB who came into the NFL without the best mechanics and was successful for a long period of time was Kerry Collins. And more recently, Tony Romo also has changed his throwing motion to become an effective NFL quarterback.
http://www.heraldnet.com...

His Accuracy- Your entire argument about Tebow's passing ability is opinionated and lacks any real substantial evidence for why you feel this way. After reading your impression of Tebow's throwing motion I would have assumed he has never completed a pass, if I had not known otherwise. We could look at each individual passing statistic for Tebow, however, I believe it would be easiest to look at the Quarterback rating which encompasses completion percentage, passing yards, TD's and interceptions. When you do this you see that not only is Tebow ranked number one for the 2009 season (which is indicative of his new throwing motion), but he also has the highest career rating of any college quarterback that has ever played! To simply ignore those statistics (which are based off only his throwing abilities and not even considering his running abilities) would be ignorant, and one should realize he is nothing short of a phenomenal passer.
Another point you bring up about Tebow is his lack of ability to throw mid-range or deep passes. The argument is quickly negated as well once you see he has an average completion yardage of over 9.2 yards every season he has played. This has ranked Tebow 1st and 4th (two times) over the last 3 years out of all college quarterbacks. This combined with his high completion percentage shows that he can indeed make these throws that you claim he can't (not to mention they play against some of the best defenses week in and week out in the SEC).
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com...

Pocket Presence- It is funny that you suggest that Tebow is quick to run the ball. I simply disagree and can remember numerous times this season where I would get frustrated at the f
Demosthenes

Con

I wish my opponent had posted this as his 2nd round, so I would have been able to fully explain that these new "statistics" and why they are in fact, irrelevant to this debate.

However, I only have 3,000 characters so I'm going to try and make them count.

1. Delivery - My opponent claims that Tebow has shown improvement in his throwing motion. This is purely and completely 100% wrong, evidenced by his extremely poor showing at the Senior Bowl where he committed MANY of the errors I have already attributed to him, i.e. missing open receivers with poor throws, inability to hit receivers in stride, and poor general accuracy. His motion requires FAR MORE than a "tweak", his motion requires a COMPLETE rebuilding.

2. My opponent has referenced Tebow's YPC average, which I believe is an EXTREMELY misleading statistic, as Tebow operated a spread style offense which clearly and obviously inflates the stats of most QBs who run it. The key to the spread is YAC, or yards after the catch. The system forces college corners who are NOTORIOUS for playing a solid 5 yard cushion to simply stay off of wideouts and tight ends who are free to rack up free yards as they have a sizable advantage in speed, strength and momentum against the corners and safeties designated to cover them. This is the strength of the spread offense, but it also leads to inflated statistics which are not always reflective of a player's talent level. It also brings in the addition of YAC, or yards after the catch, a staple of any effective offense and ESPECIALLY the spread which utilizes a great number of quick throws and screen passes. So do not take YPC at face value.

3. QB rating is a VERY poor statistical argument, ESPECIALLY for college where the QB rating is significantly different from the formula the NFL uses. On that basis it should be discarded from this discussion.

Tim Tebow is an extremely talent young man, there is no debate from me. But he is not as physically gifted in arm strength he is not gifted in accuracy, and he is not mentally prepared for the changes the NFL will bring to him. The resolution states that Tebow WILL start in 3 years. That is possible. But my opponent's opening statement says that he will be an EFFECTIVE starter in 3 years. That, sadly, is not. I feel that it is more likely that he will be a starter in 5 or 6 years, when he has had time to speed up to the game, has had time to grow into the needs of his position, and has shown that he is prepared to shoulder the burden of running an NFL offense, leading an NFL team, and learning the inner workings of a pro-style offense.

Most spread-style QBs take a long time to develop in the NFL and some do not make it at all; a few names come to mind quickly, Eric Crouch, Jamarcus Russell, I believe the biggest bust in NFL QB history, Ryan Leaf was a spread style QB. It is a long road and it is extremely unlikely that Tebow will be good enough to start on an NFL team in 3 years. Vote con.
Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mds1303 7 years ago
mds1303
@loserboi

"Tim Tebow is one of the few people ever drafted on just his reputation"

lol you are a moron, he def did not get drafted simply because of his reputation

so if he had all the same stats but wasn't famous like he is, you are saying he wouldn't have even been drafted....it would have less of a stretch to say he got bumped up a round or two and was drafted in the first round because of his reputation

but no coach is dumb enough to draft a player on simply their reputation, because they wouldn't last very long as a coach then
Posted by Loserboi 7 years ago
Loserboi
being one of the greatest college players of all time does not do that much for you in the NFL its a whole different level. Look at Peyton Mannings Dad one of the greatest Quarterbacks of all time never got good in the NFL, David Carr, Reggie Bush, Troy Smith list goes on and on. NFL teams draft on how impressive a player is at the combine not their college careers, well at least they should. Tim Tebow is one of the few people ever drafted on just his reputation. I do not see Tim Tebow being successful in the NFL as a quarterback.
Posted by mds1303 7 years ago
mds1303
My opponent says it is possible that Tim Tebow has peaked as a player merely because he didn't change his throwing motion during his last two years. First off, I believe my opponent is wrong because he did change his delivery slightly during his senior year when he had a former NFL coach helping him out. However, I think Tim Tebow was not focused on getting drafted high because he had higher priorities such as preparing to win games and I think that shows his character for looking out for his team over himself.

MY NEW ARGUMENT:
The NFL is a league that is always changing and is many times referred to as a "copycat league". Luckily for Tebow, the new trend involves the spread offense and includes a variation that uses his strengths called the wildcat. Tebow played well in my opinion at the senior bowl for only having a week with an offense that is brand new to him. Imagine if he is in an NFL system, such as the spread, which he has excelled in his whole life, he would nearly be unstoppable.

In summary, Tebow has shown that he is an amazing athlete who has accomplished things that many people never thought possible at the college level. With many NFL teams running spread offenses including the Wildcat, Tim Tebow will become a great fit for an NFL team. Although I think Tebow is easily able to make an impact on a team right away, the debate we are having gives him three years, which will only give him more time to perfect the little things that he needs to work on.
Posted by mds1303 7 years ago
mds1303
2nd Round topics:
I must admit Tebow was obviously the number one option on the Florida Gators. But since when is this a bad thing? Especially since he has shown how effective he can be when he is leading the offense. However, we are not debating if he will be the number one option on an NFL team, like a Peyton Manning, Brees, or Brady, but instead that he will simply be an effective starter. An effective starter can range from those previously mentioned to Kerry Collins in 2009, who made the throws when he needed to but wasn't the focus of the offense. On the contrary to what my opponent thinks, I believe that having him not being the number one option on his future NFL team will only help take pressure off of him. We all saw what pressure can do to a young quarterback who comes in having to live up to enormous expectations such as the Vince Young incident:
http://deadspin.com...
However, my opponent once again claims that Tebow lack the ability to throw and run with no solid proof, like statistics. I would especially like to point out for those who have forgot that Tebow is a GREAT runner. He ran the ball 692 times in his career at Florida for 2947 yards, which is a 4.25 average. Add 57 rushing TD's (which ties him with Marshall Faulk for 7th most rushing TD's of all time in college football, as a QB) to the mix with like I had previously mentioned and ZERO fumbles (when running the ball). The last thing about his running game that I would like to point out is that many of Tebow's runs are designed to be short runs whether for a first down or TD and this undoubtedly brought his average down.
Therefore, taking some of the burden off of Tebow would only help give him time to develop and grow.
Posted by mds1303 7 years ago
mds1303
So, I copy and pasted my argument and it all showed up but when I submitted it most of it got cut off!!! So i am going to post the rest on here.

Pocket Presence- It is funny that you suggest that Tebow is quick to run the ball. I simply disagree and can remember numerous times this season where I would get frustrated at the fact that he wouldn't take off and run the ball. You are making Tebow to have some type of Michael Vick mentality where he looks to run first pass second. If you have watched Tebow play and look at his passing statistics it is evident he is very calm in the pocket. I believe he is this way due to his body type and large frame. He is not afraid to step into his throws in the pocket and remain there until making his reads, however he has the added bonus that he can take off if pressure gets through. I do agree that Tebow will not be successful if his entire running style is Brandon Jacobs-esqe, however this is a misconception of his running style. Tebow has broken off many long runs do to his elusiveness, but when a short run is necessary (1st down or TD) he obviously switches his style accordingly. Also, I am assuming that Tebow will be running a type of Spread Offense in the NFL which will change the defense formation dramatically by making them remove a lineman and linebacker and replacing them with two defensive backs. Therefore, Tebow will be running against mainly corners like he did in college, all-be-it they shall be of higher quality, so it should still decrease his ability of getting hurt. I also want to quickly point out that he has never missed a game at UF or fumbled the ball while running, which simply points out his toughness which will undoubtedly help him be effective at the next level.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com...
Posted by mds1303 7 years ago
mds1303
Alright understandable, no one to blame but myself. Thanks.
Posted by Demosthenes 7 years ago
Demosthenes
Hate to say it but you're gonna have to make it your final argument, as far as I know if you miss the deadline that's it move on to the next round and try to make it up.
Posted by mds1303 7 years ago
mds1303
Man I am so sorry I though my argument was due by next morning. I have it done so if you want I can post it whenever. Sorry again!
Posted by mds1303 7 years ago
mds1303
Hmm I believe that carrying your argument onto the comments section is an automatic disqualification. Lol I am kidding, good start to the debate I will be sure to post a rebuttal tomorrow.
Posted by Demosthenes 7 years ago
Demosthenes
Last word of my post should be "college" ran out of characters.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by mds1303 7 years ago
mds1303
mds1303DemosthenesTied
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Vote Placed by Demosthenes 7 years ago
Demosthenes
mds1303DemosthenesTied
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