The Instigator
daley
Pro (for)
Winning
5 Points
The Contender
rp3galla
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Tithing is NOT Bilical

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
daley
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/29/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,120 times Debate No: 55632
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (11)
Votes (2)

 

daley

Pro

This debate is ONLY to be accepted by a Christian who believes that the law of Moses has been abolished, and thus we are not under the Mosaic Law as per Romans 6:14 and Eph 2:15. This opponent my believe that the Bible teaches Christians are obligated to pay tithes. He may be Adventists, Catholic, Protestant, or Evangelical. He must bear the burden of proof for showing where the Bible teaches tithing is enforced upon Christians.

Round 1 is for both acceptance and Con's opening arguments, and all other rounds are for rebuttals and presenting evidence.

My challenge is that there is NO evidence in the Bible, that the Christian church which Jesus came to build contains tithing as a rule for its members to follow.
rp3galla

Con

I accept this challenge. My first point of contention is while no there is not a direct statement in the New Testament that states that we must pay ten percent of our income there is evidence of Jesus one-upping the instruction. When speaking of Moses Law, we do realize that yes Jesus broke half the laws enforced by the pharisees. No he did not cover all of Moses law and say whether this law is overturned or still in affect he did say this in Matthew 5:17 Do not think I cam to abolish the Law or Prophets, I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.(NIV) A lot of people will go to this phrase to say well we still need to follow all of the old commandments. Yes, but they forget this word fulfill. Yes, Jesus became the lamb for sacrifice once and for all. But that's only part of the law. Jesus one-upped the Laws given by Moses. If we live in the vine we will produce good fruit John 15. The specific bible verse I am going to use is the story of the rich man approaching Jesus. I prefer the version of the story from Mark but Matthew still tells the same story. The rich man approaches Jesus asking for the key to eternal life. Jesus replies by stating a few of the commandments and the boy replies by stating that he has followed all these commandments. Yet Jesus challenges the man. Sell all your possessions and give to the poor. Then you will have treasure in heaven. Then, Come and follow me, he says. The man walks away sad. Question? Where does tithing go to? In my church what ever isn't used as Pastors salary or to pay the utilities in the building is put into the food bank. No Jesus didn't say give to God he said skip a few steps and simply give directly to the poor. This is the evolved form of tithing.
Debate Round No. 1
daley

Pro

My opponent admits that "no there is not a direct statement in the New Testament that states that we must pay ten percent of our income." A tithe by definition is ten percent, so if Jesus isn't talking about a tenth, he isn't talking about a tithe! Even upping it by one percent to make it eleven percent would mean it is no longer a tithe.

Far from simply one-upping the tithe, the New Testament simply ABOLISHED the tithe altogether in Hebrews 7:5, 11, 12, 18: "5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 18 For there is verily a DISANNULLING of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof." The "COMMANDMENT" being discussed here is the commandment to collect tithes, and it was DISANNULLED. The law was changed along with the priesthood. This isn't one-upping, this is DISANNULLING.

As for the law of Moses, God inspired Jesus' disciples to record that this law had also been complete removed. (Ephsians 2:15; Rom 6:14)

As for Matthew 5:17, Jesus lets recall that Jesus commanded people to keep the law of Moses while it was still in force, for example in Matthew 8:4 where he told a man to offer the gift Moses prescribed. Obviously we don't have to do that now. Jesus was born "under the law" (Gal 4:1-4) so he had to keep it; but we Christians are "not under the law" (Rom 6:14), the law of Moses, so we don't have to keep it.

Matthew 5:17 doesn't say the law won't pass away, but rather, that it won't pass away UNTIL it is fulfilled, and Jesus says he came to fulfill it. If Jesus didn't fulfill it, then he failed his mission. The Bible teaches that he did fulfill it, hence, it did pass away. Notice how the word UNTIL is also used at Matthew 1:25. Joseph didn't have sex with Mary UNTIL she gave birth to Jesus; that doesn't mean he never made love to her. Similarly, the law won't pass away UNTIL it is fulfilled. Didn't Jesus fulfill it?

Now you made an argument that giving to the poor is an evolved form of tithing because it goes directly to them instead of through the church first, but Jesus is telling the man to give ALL to the poor. That is so much more than a tenth I don't think it can be considered a tithe. How could ALL be a tithe? And what's more, Jesus wasn't even giving the church a COMMAND of LAW for ALL Christians to obey. If he was, then you and I and all Christians would have to sell everything we have and give the money to the poor. Have you done this? If not, then this obviously isn't a law for you to follow, or else you are disobeying Christ. Rather, what was really happening in Matthew 19 was Jesus was testing this man's heart. How far was he willing to go to please God? He was willing to keep the Ten Commandments (notice Jesus didn't mention tithing here), but he wasn't willing to give up his wealth! Interestingly, Jesus said: ""If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. THEN come, follow me." (Matt 19:21) Notice Jesus mentioned keeping the law and being generous to the poor separate from actually following him? Even if a person does these things, it doesn't mean he is truely following Jesus. In 1 Corinthians 13:3 Paul says: "If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing."

Now, keep in mind that even in the Old Testament, a person who was generous to the poor still was obligated under Moses' law to pay tithes, so when Jesus encourages generosity to the poor he isn't one-upping tithing. He is commanding generosity in the New Covenant, which was also commanded in the Old Covenant.

So there just isn't any proof we are required by Scripture to pay tithes. We only have to give our best, and what percentage that is is between each person and God, and one person's best will be different from another person's best because we have different circumstances in life.
rp3galla

Con

rp3galla forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
daley

Pro

My opponent has forfeited; I guess he couldn't find any evidence for tithing.
rp3galla

Con

rp3galla forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
daley

Pro

I guess that proves tithing isn't Biblical
rp3galla

Con

rp3galla forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
daley

Pro

There you have it, tithing isn't Biblical
rp3galla

Con

rp3galla forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by daley 3 years ago
daley
If you are so sure that God expects tithing today, maybe you should challenge me to a debate on it. My books THE GOSPEL TRUTH and NOT MY BABY are now for sale on Amazon.com in paperback form. Please do my the honor of purchasing one of my books. After Amaryllis hotel closed down, I no longer had a job, so I'm trying to make my writing work for me.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Tithing or not tithing does not make you saved or lost, but God still wants us to give ten percent of our income to Him and God did establish an order in the local Church. The Book of Revelation was addressed to seven actual existing churches. God still wants His people to follow order. If you don't tithe, that's between you and God.........but it's hard to tell me how much you love God if you are not putting your money where your mouth is.
Posted by daley 3 years ago
daley
I have changed the restrictions on age and rank so any of you who complained about this can accept this challenge. I don't mind debating more than one of you at a time, so if you want you may send me your own challenges on tithing and I'll respond.
Posted by dairygirl4u2c 3 years ago
dairygirl4u2c
teemo. where is the evidence? pro says there is none. this is the whole point of the debate. so it would be important for us to see more.
Posted by Chest 3 years ago
Chest
This would be an intriguing debate, as I am usually on the Pro-New Testament side of things. I would like to debate you, but cannot accept because of my age or rank. If you would like to debate me, please send a request.
Posted by nonprophet 3 years ago
nonprophet
Of course tithing is NOT Bilical! It's BIBLICAL!
Posted by cwt002 3 years ago
cwt002
Are you saying that the Old Testament is completely irrelevant? Just would like clarification.

After the Old Testament are Christians obligated, forced to do anything? or is it based on the relationship with Christ that we chose to honor him by following his instructions. Throughout the entire Bible it references tithing and honoring God with gifts by giving back the things he blessed us with.
Posted by NNEye 3 years ago
NNEye
Are you debating against tithing in the modern sense or in any sense?
Posted by Jschmeic 3 years ago
Jschmeic
Id like to debate this however i do not meet some criteria fix this please
Posted by Conservative101 3 years ago
Conservative101
I'm Mormon, and we pay tithes, but we're not forced to.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 3 years ago
9spaceking
daleyrp3gallaTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: ff
Vote Placed by 16kadams 3 years ago
16kadams
daleyrp3gallaTied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: FF