The Instigator
BackSeatPreacher
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
FollowerofChrist1955
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Tithing is the drug of choice for many churches

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/17/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 356 times Debate No: 106788
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (9)
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BackSeatPreacher

Pro

What I mean by that is that tithing is the needle, the concoction of out of context and old testament scripture manipulation, mixed up just right is the 'heroin', and the high is the justification by old testament law and man. That is the tithers reward.
FollowerofChrist1955

Con

You state "What I mean by that is that tithing is the needle, the concoction of out of context and old testament scripture manipulation, mixed up just right is the 'heroin', and the high is the justification by old testament law and man. That is the tithers reward."

Hear ye, hear ye, gather around brothers, and listen to this fellow - Hear his message like the one given of Pharoah to the slaves of Goshens ... to wit ... What make our tally of brick withoiut straw? Ahh says Pharoah, then letthem glean it for themselves! Now Backseat wants us to have Churches without Buildings? Or is the PLAN to have Churches funded by the government ... in which case Homsexuals, LGBT and murders, theives, pornagraphy producers, Satanists, Witches, and every other diseased mind MUST BE allowed to Join the Church, not to mention Marriage requirements for the Pastors, Preachers and Priest MUST marry same sex couples or have Federal Funding pulled and the Doors barred! Or perhaps this IS the meaning fom the word go! Close the doors, because If we are not federally or State funded, we have No resources to keep the doors open in the first place? Perhaps THIS was the meaning for this debate?

Because except for the people OF the Church who do give, there would be no Church outside the Home Church which is also fine, but let us put it into correct prospective!

Isn't that what it's really all about, personal greed? A person who feels no need to GIVE a portion of what God gives Him to God for the establishment of a place that people who seek God can come to to learn ... course without funding can't buy Bibles, so we would of course require them to bring their own Bibles an sort of Christian BYOB. Perhaps the more noble ... obviously not backseat driver here, but certainly I wouldn't mind giving my Bible to another soul and just purchase me another one. Course I of course am honored to give God at least 10% and in my case more than 10% for the priviledge and honor to be a child of His and have the oportunity to support a building where others can come to learn of the wonderous grace of God ... I mean after all there are plenty of ... what is the term? Deadbeat son's who suckup everything free, like a bum on a bologna sandwich, leaving not a crumb in its place! Taking never giving ... ah yes, the memories.

Yes perhaps Backseat driver does have something there after all. Or maybe .. just maybe? He should get back on His knees and Thank God for a sense of humor, along with a quick prayer that no one should listen to such nonsense!

Maybe backseat driver just hasn't thought the problem through? Maybe he's been listening to some freak, and failed in his task to TEST the spirit, to see if it was so? I'm sure I've heard that somewhere ... yes, Acts I believe, the bereans come to mind, yes surely it must have been them?

So enlighten us backseat driver ... tell us HOW to keep the church open, without tithes .... perhaps a Raffle? Selling cakes sometimes works? Course I'm not sure one can raise 300,000 dollars in cakes and raffles, but I suppose we can try? I mean after all, only 20% of the ENTIRE CHURCH MEMBERSHIP even GIVE tithes ... we won't obviously include backseat in that as which side he's on is crystal clear! The rest of the 80% obviously HAVE listened to backseat driver here, I must make sure to have the pastor check to see if backdoor driver is in OUR congregation. Perhaps a visit to the woodshed is in order?

only God knows?
Debate Round No. 1
BackSeatPreacher

Pro

What I mean by that is that tithing is the needle, the concoction of out of context and old testament scripture manipulation, mixed up just right is the 'heroin', and the high is the justification by old testament law and man. That is the tithers reward.

LoL! Hear ye hear ye hear Yeee Hawl!
LoL I love the woodshed!

Notice in these first two paragraphs there is no separation between tithing and giving.. This all by itself reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of giving all together, and here is what I mean..

To be brief, Tithing is a tax, a compulsory, non optional, mandatory, old testament law. There actually were a few different types of Tithes in the old testament. Tithing was always on the increase of live stock, food, etc.. It was to support the sacrificial operations of the old testament temple as well as widows and the poor..

Offering on the other hand, is Giving as the new testament tells us to give.. 2 cor 9:7 Each one should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not out of regret or compulsion. For God loves a cheerful giver.

Here we have a new testament scripture telling us NOT to pay tithes. LoL (Do NOT give by reason of COMPLUSION, but give as YOU (not the pastor, not old testament law) have decided in YOUR heart.)

3rd Paragraph response
Do I hear the familiar high of justification ringing through? "I am honored to give God 10%!" "Its an opportunity" LoL Since when has a mandatory tax become opportunity? I present for consideration that a tax is and always will be a tax. To decorate the tithing tax as an opportunity is confusion because they are opposite to each other.. God is not the author of confusion.

No matter how much you want to give that 10% it really doesn't matter because you don't have a choice according to the teachings of tithes. Because if you don't pay up, you will be cursed with a curse.. Only of course if you are living the tithing deception.

The same old testament law curse that Jesus saved us from, now he will put us back under the same old curse because I forgot about a $10 off coupon saving me $10 which is an increase of which if I didn't pay tithes off that increase, then tithing teachers say I am a thief and a robber stealing from God and on my way to hell.. LoL what a wonderful belief system!

Its almost like a new heavy burden laid on the back of a new convert right after Jesus said "Come to me all that are heavy laden and I will give you rest"..... By slapping you in the face with an increase of 10% on your taxes and if you don't pay you are back on your way to hell.. LoL

My personal revelation came when I refused to give 10% I wanted to give 100% but I never could because according to the tithing teaching, that 10% is fixed, you can never give more than 10% because anything more magically converts into an offering. but I wanted to give 100% and I never could because the 10% wasn't mine to begin with, it was Gods, so I could max out at only 90% and I was upset and that began my journey of revelation that at first was a little scary. But follower feels I say all this because of greed? Why would follower immediately jump to that conclusion? (Brain washing) LoL

4th Paragraph - I agree with everything except the last sentence simply goes off the rails.. LoL "No one should listen to such non-sense".. Is this a suggestion to close the ears by "not listening"? Doesn't the bible say faith comes by hearing? Are you suggesting selective blindness? Because a closed mind is a blind mind. Our ears did not come with doors, and I feel followers suggestion to install them so we can close the doors on followers orders, is counterproductive.

5th Paragraph - All tested an confirmed, revelations from God himself.
6th Paragraph - "So enlighten us backseat driver ... tell us HOW to keep the church open, without tithes .... perhaps a Raffle? Selling cakes sometimes works?"
Oh Ye of little faith. You preach faith but are afraid to exercise it yourself, is that what we call hypocrisy?. It appears follower would rather intimidate with fear and demand old testament taxation be foisted new testament church because a lack of faith.
Matthew 16:8
Aware of their conversation, Jesus said, You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9 Do you still not understand? Do you not remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketful's you gathered?"

Follower says 20% of the entire church membership gives tithes? How can follower know this? Ah, I know.. It is because follower has placed a net worth value on the heads of the saints and has judged them accordingly. That is called the building blocks of corruption.

Tell me follower, is the 20% that give tithes worth more than those who do not? Of course they are, your entire argument confirms this observation or the entire building will come crumbling down... Such statements reveal a little problem in the faith department.. It seems like follower states that without tithing, Big fun churches are impossible. Oh but with God all things are possible, not sure if follower knows that or not, but it seems to be missing from the equation.

And the rest of the 80% of the congregation HAVE been listening to the backseat preacher, and based on all the things follower has to say about the backseat preacher, I can clearly see that those 80% are less valued than the 20% and this is all because the love for money. If love for money is NOT involved, then there would be no 80 and 20, and those nasty 80% need to be taken to the woodshed because they are worthless? This observation that follower has kindly shared with us is all seems like its based on money money money..

And last but not least, how can new testament churches be supported without tithes? (How can a heroin addict continue without heroin?)

Its simple, first of all a church that has been built on the lie of tithes unfotunatly will always be committed to keep the lie going unless it wants to go through serious withdrawals from the drug of tithes, which numbs us to faith, and leaves Jesus completely out of the picture..

Christ is dead to tithe teachers because their trust is in the law of tithes more so than Christ. Follower has already stated such by saying the entire church will collapse without tithes, where is Jesus? Follower thinks of selling cakes before involving Jesus. Money first? Well actually follower never did involve Jesus or faith because Jesus is not relevant for tithing teachers. Jesus is not needed at all because follower and other tithing followers are justified by the law and apparently that's all that is needed.

Elaborating on Justification.. That is the feeling of relief with the pat on the back from the tithing teachers and followers that the tithing was paid. That feeling only lasts for a short time.

All any church needs to survive is have faith. Can a church collapse that God wanted in action?
Who wants to sell cakes when God has wisdom and faith for sale.

Start a church without a lie as part of the foundation and always remember, when you pay a tithe, you are at the end of the mandatory and spiritually irrelevant task, but when you give an offering, you are starting and initiating spiritual interaction. But follower seems content with initiating a good boy pat on the back from man and the short lived justification that comes with it. Keep in mind, I am not saying tithers are going to hell. But I am saying all tithers are and will always be spiritual midgets.

Do we need to install a wheel chair ramp from the woodshed for you? Maybe bust out some new LED'S and get some light in there and it is my hope that they will illuminate enough for you to begin your journey. I can tell you are a spiritual asset and there are much greater things that are just on the other side of this revelation waiting for you.

Thank You
BackSeatPreacher
FollowerofChrist1955

Con

At the time of this writing Pro has given no response to begin the Debate, this is however not relevant as, Pro merely provides his very humans thoughts regarding God and Gods thinking or thoughts, of which can be summarily dismissed out of hand as the only one who knows Gods thoughts, Gods plan and Gods will … is God!

Having said this, neither do I fault Pro his thinking and thoughts … indeed but by the grace … yes? Likely as not we all begin this selfsame way in our own walk? Dependent on the principle of Gods will. God in determination of the path He has chosen for each of us and having completed the task in reality, of which we are merely following the predetermined path for which selected … hence the term (Predestination?) I will allow you to ponder the significance of THAT KEY WORD! In any case I am reminded that

Isaiah 55: 8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,”declares the Lord. 9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

For this cause I require no reading of Pro’s comments to proceed with the debate: let us begin as must be begun … in Truth and truth alone, not opinion, conjecture, supposition or personal interpretation as Pro has done, and is likely doing in his walk. This of course is in error and in direct defiance of Scared Scripture at the onset! Thus IF Pro starts out his walk IN VIOLATION of scripture … can such a ones viewpoint be considered even potentially accurate? Unlikely! But let us begin.

Pro begins in error by stating quote “Tithing is the drug of choice for many churches” “by old testament law and man.” This is in fact untrue!
Genesis 14:19
19 He blessed him and said, "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth; 20 And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand." He gave him a tenth of all.

Hebrews 7:1-2
1 This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 and Abraham apportioned to him a tenth of everything. First, his name means “king of righteousness.” Then also, “king of Salem” means “king of peace.”

Hebrews 7:4
Consider how great Melchizedek was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the spoils.

Genesis 28:21-22
21 and I return to my father's house in safety, then the LORD will be my God. 22 "This stone, which I have set up as a pillar, will be God's house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You."

By this it is confirmed that Pro is in complete error as it is proved at the time of a tenth being given to Melchizedek there WAS NO MOSES and No law! Yet Abraham and Jacob provided a tenth of all they received from God! And it was accounted righteousness to Abraham.

There were anywhere from 300 to 500 years between the time of Jacob and Moses. Jacob was born first of the two. One of Jacob's sons was Joseph - who became a leader in Egypt. Moses was born into the Egypt that Joseph had presided over. Therefore, Moses came about 2 generations after Jacob. In biblical time, that's about 3 to 5 hundred years.

Thus it is proved that the Law of Moses as of the giving of the Tenth by Abraham AND Jacob, did “NOT “as yet EXIST! This alone should render Pro’s comment “by old testament law and man.” As obviously false, and no other scripture submitted by Pro, WILL deviate from this primary truth, unless and until one … any one “CAN” produce the scripture which IS REQUIRED, that states emphatically Christ statement that Tithing is “NO LONGER REQUIRED” Why is it important to HAVE this stated outright? Because to do otherwise is in DIRECT contravention of The Sacred Text to wit:
2 Peter1 20-21
20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

That I know as do most of you if not because of the complete lack of scripture which states outright the tithe is NOT to be paid or required to be paid, for anyone Saint or sinner to INTERPRET this from any number of scriptures that NONE specifically state TITHE, is to what? Everyone? RIGHT … to PERSONALLY INTERPRET Gods Word which 2 Peter 1 20-21 state is what? RIGHT ... NOT GIVEN to prophet nor any other!

KEY VERSE: “own interpretation”

You DON’T need a Theologian or Scholar to INTERPRET this for you do you? Because if he DOES HE then becomes guilty of violating the sacred text himself doesn’t he? And what happens after that? Of course 43,000 Christian Denominations right? There you go!

http://www.religionfacts.com...
http://blogforthelordjesuscurrentevents.com...
http://www.philvaz.com...

Whether you DO look these up is really unimportant, as the WHY this did occur IS the compelling factor! In a WORD? The CAUSE IS Defiance of Scripture at the onset of the Believers walk! How so?

Remember when you were saved and God presented Himself as REAL to you which IS the reason you WERE able to immediately transform from a perpetual Sinner to a Saved Believer who can and IS empowered to be FREE from the Bondage of Sin, through the indwelling Holy Spirit which SEALS you for God! Accompanying this transformation the desire to know God better. But instead of going into the WORD many of us went into the commentaries, Authored books from learned Theologians and Scholars … failing to realize who KNOWS God better than God Himself? Because we were new, to it all we had our minds set by listening to our favorite commentators and Preachers BEFORE we really learned the Bible. According to my experience on this board … the vast majority do reflect the concern presented by the Scholars which suggest an epidemic of Biblical illiteracy among the Brethren?

http://www.christianitytoday.com...
http://magazine.biola.edu...
https://albertmohler.com...

Had we stuck to the Bible Alone and God, we would have learned not only at a much FASTER rate but in a more in depth manner, which God stated flatly in the Word we all failed to read, opting for the opinions of Men! See where we are going with this? It also explains WHY Pro got it wrong. He’s listening to humanity, not God, despite reading the scriptures himself, he obviously relied on the text outside of the Bible for clarification, and interpretation … which 2 Peter 1 states is forbidden.

By attaching PERSONAL INTERPRETATION, whether his or some pastor’s or some theologians isn’t the point at all, the point is this was not to be done! God’s word is not for the personal interpretation of anyone. The quicker you learn this the faster you will grow!

Yes. Yes I have heard that’s “NOT” what that scripture MEANS and the lost Bible soul proceeds to pull out the Greek, the Hebrew theological books, the Strong’s concordance and such … after which I merely respond! Huh? I only went to GOD! Because in John 6:45 it states “It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.” And this points to Isaiah 54:13 which tells me quote "All your sons will be taught of the LORD; And the well-being of your sons will be great., which coincides with 1 Thessalonians 4:9 Now about brotherly love, you do not need anyone to write to you, because you yourselves have been taught by God to love one another., which agrees with 1 John 2:27 And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught.”
Which IN TIME helps me understand that Philippians 3:15 All of us who are mature should embrace this point of view. And if you think differently about some issue, God will reveal this to you as well.”

Any questions? If so put it in the comments section please!




Debate Round No. 2
BackSeatPreacher

Pro

First of all let us observe that Con has not answered anything but rather has introduced an explosion of more information, kind of like running for the hills... Why no explanation about 2 cor 9:7 that specifically tells us NOT to pay tithes? (Each one should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not out of regret or compulsion. For God loves a cheerful giver.) Do not give out of compulsion? Why no answer to this?

Since Con cant seem to explain why the new testament states not to pay tithes, I will go ahead and shed some light on Cons foiled escape and then hang him with his own rope. LoL

Lets start by putting into context what Con has taken out of context.

Con lists 4 scriptures in a row. The first
Genesis 14:19

19 He blessed him and said, "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth; 20 And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand." He gave him a tenth of all.

This one event in the old testament has a lot to it. First of all, it was Arab custom in those days to pay a tenth of the spoils of war to the local king priest whoever it was. But Con leaves out some very important factors to this story including the one I just mentioned. Also the fact that Abram gave 90% to the king of Sodom. If we are to seriously use this scripture to support tithing as some kind of principle, then why leave out the 90%? LoL
This was a one time event involving the spoils of war, Abram gave it all away, nothing to do with everyday living or earning of wages..

Con posted -
Hebrews 7:1-2
1 This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 and Abraham apportioned to him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness." Then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace." End Con post

Rather than get into deep details of history, lets look at Hebrews which coincidentally happens to be where tithing is abolished.

Hebrews 7:5
And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a COMMANDMENT to take TITHES of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

Hebrews 7:15
And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchizedek there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the LAW of a CARNAL COMMANDMENT, (Tithing) but after the power of an endless life.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the COMMANDMENT (tithing) going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the LAW made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
22 By so much was Jesus made a SURETY of a better testament.

Surety =
1.Security against loss or damage or for the fulfillment of an obligation, the payment of a debt, etc.; a pledge, guaranty, or bond.
2. a person who has made himself or herself responsible for another, as a sponsor, godparent, or bondsman.
3 a person who is legally responsible for the debt, default, or delinquency of another. (Setting up Jesus to pay the final tithe ending the law) (Tithing is a debt that can never be satisfied)

26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; (High priests were the collectors of tithes and have been replaced by us)
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. (Jesus paid the final tithe here)
28 For the LAW maketh men high priests which have infirmity; (sounds like con) but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
(The author wraps everything that could possibly be associated with tithing and ends it all because now a greater one than Melchizedek and a greater one than the law has taken ALL responsibility leaving nothing out and yes that includes Melchizedek)

Now lets look at Cons posting of
Genesis 28:21-22
Keep in mind Con has omitted verse 20 because he wants to INTERPRET this for us as paying tithes. I have included verse 20.

Genesis 28:20-22
20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, 21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Lord be my God:
22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shall give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

Cons posting -
You DON"T need a Theologian or Scholar to INTERPRET this for you do you? Because if he DOES HE then becomes guilty of violating the sacred text himself doesn"t he? ( Kind of like leaving out verse 20 so you can INTERPRET this verse to us as one that promotes tithing?
Come on Con you can do better than hanging by your own rope. This has nothing to do with tithing at all now that it is put back into context thanks to BackSeatPreacher.

Summary
It appears to me that Con has a connection to tithing using words like "violation" "Defiance" but that is ok. My hope is that Con will use his passion for greater things.

Thank You
BackSeatPreacher
FollowerofChrist1955

Con

Pro states “Why no explanation about 2 cor 9:7 that specifically tells us NOT to pay tithes?”

If a Believer is nothing else he is always fair. As Pro suggest see for your self?

Below is every translation of 2 Corinthians 9:7 underline the WORD TITHE?

New International Version

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

New Living Translation

You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And don't give reluctantly or in response to pressure. "For God loves a person who gives cheerfully."

English Standard Version

Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Berean Study Bible

Each one should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not out of regret or compulsion. For God loves a cheerful giver.

Berean Literal Bible

each as he purposes in the heart, not out of regret or of necessity. For God loves a cheerful giver.

New American Standard Bible

Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

King James Bible

Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Holman Christian Standard Bible

Each person should do as he has decided in his heart--not reluctantly or out of necessity, for God loves a cheerful giver.

International Standard Version

Each of you must give what you have decided in your heart, not with regret or under compulsion, since God loves a cheerful giver.

NET Bible

Each one of you should give just as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, because God loves a cheerful giver.

New Heart English Bible

Let each man give according as he has determined in his heart; not grudgingly, or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English

Every man according to what he is in his mind and not according to grief or of compulsion, for God loves the joyful giver.

GOD'S WORD® Translation

Each of you should give whatever you have decided. You shouldn't be sorry that you gave or feel forced to give, since God loves a cheerful giver.

New American Standard 1977

Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver.

Jubilee Bible 2000

Each one according as they purpose in their heart, so let them give, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.

King James 2000 Bible

Every man according as he purposes in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loves a cheerful giver.

American King James Version

Every man according as he purposes in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loves a cheerful giver.

American Standard Version

Let each man do according as he hath purposed in his heart: not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Douay-Rheims Bible

Every one as he hath determined in his heart, not with sadness, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Darby Bible Translation

each according as he is purposed in his heart; not grievingly, or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.

English Revised Version

Let each man do according as he hath purposed in his heart; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Webster's Bible Translation

Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or by constraint: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Weymouth New Testament

Let each contribute what he has decided upon in his own mind, and not do it reluctantly or under compulsion. "It is a cheerful giver that God loves."

World English Bible

Let each man give according as he has determined in his heart; not grudgingly, or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver.

Young's Literal Translation

each one, according as he doth purpose in heart, not out of sorrow or out of necessity, for a cheerful giver doth God love

I remind you of Pro’s lie: “Why no explanation about 2 cor 9:7 that specifically tells us NOT to pay tithes?”

For the readers* Please underline the WORD tithes in these translations, Please.

You be the judge, does this SPECIFICALLY state TITHE? So much for Pro’s accusation. When your wrong in one, your wrong in ALL, why? Mindset! Your in yourself, not God, that very much makes any believer prone to error and abnormal walk in Christ as witnessed in Pro’s case, no matter, the errors are Pro’s the consequence shall also BE pro’s.

My purpose for accepting this debate was previously stated and it has nothing to do with answering what can easily be seen by ALL. A believer who REMAINS very much ALIVE in himself! Not dead to self!

Colossians 3:3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

Uhhh … not if your Pro! At least “not yet”!

Malachi 3 Robbing God

…7"From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from My statutes and have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you," says the LORD of hosts. "But you say, 'How shall we return?' 8"Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, 'How have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings. 9"You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you!…

In fairness I place all translations here as well:

New International Version

"Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me. "But you ask, 'How are we robbing you?' "In tithes and offerings.

New Living Translation

"Should people cheat God? Yet you have cheated me! "But you ask, 'What do you mean? When did we ever cheat you?' "You have cheated me of the tithes and offerings due to me.

English Standard Version

Will man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you say, ‘How have we robbed you?’ In your tithes and contributions.

New American Standard Bible

"Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, 'How have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings.

King James Bible

Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

Holman Christian Standard Bible

Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me!" You ask: "How do we rob You?"" By not making the payments of the tenth and the contributions.

International Standard Version

"Will a person rob God? Yet you are robbing me! But you ask, 'How are we robbing you?' "By the tithe and the offering.

NET Bible

Can a person rob God? You indeed are robbing me, but you say, 'How are we robbing you?' In tithes and contributions!

New Heart English Bible

Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. But you say, 'How have we robbed you?' In tithes and offerings.

GOD'S WORD® Translation

"Can a person cheat God? Yet, you are cheating me! "But you ask, 'How are we cheating you?' "When [you don't bring] a tenth of your income and other contributions.

JPS Tanakh 1917

Will a man rob God? Yet ye rob Me. But ye say: 'Wherein have we robbed Thee?' In tithes and heave-offerings.

New American Standard 1977

“Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, ‘How have we robbed Thee?’ In tithes and offerings.

Jubilee Bible 2000

Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, In what have we robbed thee? In the tithes and the offerings.

King James 2000 Bible

Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed me. But you say, How have we robbed you? In tithes and offerings.

American King James Version

Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed me. But you say, Wherein have we robbed you? In tithes and offerings.

American Standard Version

Will a man rob God? yet ye rob me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

Douay-Rheims Bible

Shall a man afflict God? for you afflict me. And you have said: Wherein do we afflict thee? in tithes and in firstfruits.

Darby Bible Translation

Will a man rob God? But ye rob me. And ye say, Wherein do we rob thee? [In] tithes and heave-offerings.

English Revised Version

Will a man rob God? yet ye rob me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

Webster's Bible Translation

Will a man rob God? yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, In what have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

World English Bible

Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me! But you say, 'How have we robbed you?' In tithes and offerings.

Young's Literal Translation

Doth man deceive God? but ye are deceiving Me, And ye have said: 'In what have we deceived Thee?' The tithe and the heave-offering!

Here you note it states rather graphically “ROB ME!” This STATES as Pro can clearly see his own error, TITHES, Specifically!

This naturally begs the question? Why specifically state TITHE here but NOT 2 Cor 9:7?

Because God is speaking of gifts “NOT offerings and TITHES”

Ahh yes Pro said they are BOTH the same? I know the scriptures and Malachi makes a DISTINCT difference in GIFT and responsibility! I place it again for your perusal.

2 Peter1 20-21

20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Empirical evidence of Pro’s disregard of Sacred Scripture by a professed Believer and Slave of God! Or is He slave to God?

Debate Round No. 3
BackSeatPreacher

Pro

First, lets CAPITALIZE Tithe in 2 Cor 9:7
Each of you should GIVE WHAT YOU HAVE DECIDED in your heart to give, NOT reluctantly or UNDER COMPULSION, for God loves a cheerful giver. ("Give what you have decided / NOT under compulsion" is a direct reference to tithing because tithing was the LAW. Tithing is a mandatory tax, no way around it that is compulsion. That is what it was, not anymore of course unless you are Con.
Remember Con, all tithing teachers and tithers are spiritual midgets, their growth has been reduced by the tithing drug just like drugs stunt growth.

Now that we have helped Con see the light I hope Con looks at it.. This is pretty much UN-arguable, no matter how much you want to change the meaning of this verse you simply cant do it.

Now, lets help Con with the famous Malachi reference.
This is what Con has stated, and I will also point out Cons attempt to deceive you.

Con Posting start> (Malachi 3 Robbing God

"7"From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from My statutes and have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you," says the LORD of hosts. "But you say, 'How shall we return?' 8"Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, 'How have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings. 9"You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you!" )( Ahh yes Pro said they are BOTH the same? I know the scriptures and Malachi makes a DISTINCT difference in GIFT and responsibility! I place it again for your perusal. 2 Peter 20-21

20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet"s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Empirical evidence of Pro"s disregard of Sacred Scripture by a professed Believer and Slave of God! Or is He slave to God?)< Cons posting end.

This last post from Con is the perfect example of attempted mind control in an obscure way. But let us find a more applicable verse to the new testament church.. Us..

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of TRUTH, is come, he will GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH:(The verse continues with a little more detail on how this plays out) for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Here is something to come.. The TRUTH about tithes will continue to be exposed for the lie and the drug that it is..
In reality tithing teachers like Con are the robbers and the thieves in the new testament, stealing from the saints faith and liberty and demanding taxation under the disguise of a grossly misinterpreted old testament law to be foisted on the new testament church. Instead of a gun to our head like the government likes to use, Con uses scripture as his gun to the head of the saints and threatens the curses in the old testament for non compliance.

Robbery = Taking by threat of force or harm.. Demanding our money by threats of spiritual curses, hell, fire, and brimstone as well as a constant visit from the "devourer".. Ouch Come on Con open your eyes and lose the smoke screen.

Luke 12:2
Jesus began to speak first to His disciples: "Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees, (Con) which is hypocrisy. 2 There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that not will be made known.
Today we are witnessing this verse in action.

Did you know that everybody in the new testament that told Jesus they pay tithes was called a hypocrite?.. LoL

Thank You
BackSeatPreacher a servant of truth.
FollowerofChrist1955

Con

Cannot teach one who is firmly seated upon his throne, so I won't try. Onward Christian Soldiers!

2 Peter1 20-21

20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Empirical evidence of Pro’s disregard of Sacred Scripture by a professed Believer and Slave of God! Or is He slave to God?

Pro “OPINION” states “This all by itself reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of giving all together, and here is what I mean..”

Pro further opinions “To be brief, Tithing is a tax, a compulsory, non optional, mandatory, old testament law. There actually were (here pro goes further into his OWN understanding, a thing also forbidden in scripture see below) a few different types of Tithes in the old testament. Tithing was always on the increase of live stock, food, etc.. It was to support the sacrificial operations of the old testament temple as well as widows and the poor..”

The above scripture gives specific relief for errors such as Pro's .. don't guess, Don't Think ... simply DO as God commands, leaving all instructions, and teaching to Him Alone in accordance with scripture.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

Where is pro demonstrating compliance with this directive of God?

I see NO scripture of a TAX on the tenth given to Melchizedek and there WAS NO LAW! At this point in time!

If this tenth WAS a TAX as opinioned by Pro … Tax for what? What of the tenth given by Jacob … Tax too?

The problem as previously stated is in the violation of Pro to interpreting wrongly the scripture despite having been WARNED IN SCRIPTURE (2 Peter 1:20-21) of the need “NOT” too! This is violated by almost ALL CHRISTIANS Today!

2 Timothy 2:15 Make every effort to present yourself approved to God, an unashamed workman who accurately handles the word of truth.

Well? That don’t happen when you start Guessing Folks. You either KNOW or you DON’T, there IS NO “I THINK” or I BELIEVE in Christian Living! Period!

Look it’s so simple: Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

I’ll show you how simple it is. Now look at that statement? You DON’T NEED an interpreter to TELL you that this SAYS, in human layman’s terms … I am God and I do not CARE WHAT you THINK nor BELIEVE! You believe what I TELL YOU to Believe not what YOU WANT to believe! Know how I know this? Matthew, Luke and mark!

“Then Jesus told His disciples, "If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself

How simple does it get! To deny self means to deny self right? I mean MY Thoughts, My Plans, My Beliefs, My wants, My rights … essentially MY ANYTHING! Doesn’t denying MYSELF entail all of the above? Then WHY in the World would I or anyone ATTEMPT to interpret Scripture? Because we are Scholars? Theologians? Does being educated override the Prophets who themselves DID NOT INTERPRET SCRIPTURE! But you know who did? Yeah .. the Pharisees!

Whose Slave are You?

Romans 6:22

22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you reap leads to holiness, and the outcome is eternal life.

1 Corinthians 7:22 For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord's freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ's slave.

Do you really need someone telling you that’s NOT exactly what that means? You can’t tell what that means on your own? You don’t put spin on scripture folks. It says it that ends it! Remember?

I do not require someone’s interpretation or spin on Gods word!

God says right in scripture … if you read my last comments that GOD teaches all of US! God … not commentaries, videos, pastors preachers and the teachers are Gods servants … God is in the lead .. we just need to FOLLOW. ALL questions we ask … we ask GOD! God will answer for His self!

That Gods/Christ slave dictates what is and is not acceptable or required with full knowledge that no scripture at any time Mentions the cancellation of the requirement of tithing SPECIFICALLY, but has been assumed by the usurpers of authority, bodes ill, to one professing slave to Christ and dead to self? How then can the dead boast of Right to interpret sacred text … if DEAD? The cemetery is full of dead people, none of which speak, demand right nor complain!

But their dead comes the response, and I’m alive?

This is WHY you error … WE are alive ONLY in Christ. But Pro and many of you REMAIN ALIVE to self! This is why you are easily mislead! This is why you strayyou still believe what YOU want, and that isn’t what God wants nor thinks

Empirical evidence: Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 65:2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;

THIS clearly describes Pro … does it describe you also? Then by all means argue this with God then, not me I am but a slave, of no importance in the World.

You must complete your obligation to DIE TO SELF, until you do; you only have a chance at one of TWO positions in the Kingdom of God! Both described without need of interpretations from violators of scripture. 1 Corinthians 3.

Saved and reward or Saved ONLY … but this one REQUIRES your having to be saved BY GOING THROUGH the FIRE!

But these are neither Sons nor Daughters of God according to Scripture. They are people of God only! The Sons and Daughters ARE DISCIPLES ONLY!

Christ placed the REQUIREMENT necessary to BECOME a Son of God! All of you have the RIGHT but only those who complete the dying to self, will achieve it!

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

Behold you HOLD the power to BECOME sons of God … WILL you take it? Or let it pass?

Revelation 3:21

To the one who is victorious, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Luke 22:42 saying, "Father, if You are willing, take away this cup from Me. Yet not My will, but Yours be done."

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus told His disciples, "If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me.

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Luke 9:23 Then Jesus said to all of them, "If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

Luke 14:27 And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple.

The question is clear? Are You a Disciple of Christ? Pro clearly has “NOT” denied himself, but interprets Gods Word to HIS thinking … Do you? IF you do, then Christ Tells you … YOU ARE NOT His Disciple!

Only those who OVERCOME as CHRIST overcame shall share HIS THRONE, as He shares in His fathers Throne.

If you are not a Disciple? Find the scripture which states YOU will receive Kingship by being OTHER THAN Discipleship?

My purpose is to service the people of God, the Followers of God and the Disciples of God. My other duty is to battle the unbeliever the Atheists, which are NOT the same as the unbelievers. And to do so with the equal boldness that Christ and the Apostles did which unfortunately got most of them Killed! How about you? Are you hated for Christ sake by the World? Or are you accepted among the unbelieving as harmless, eccentric perhaps, but not worthy of attention nor concern, as THEY PERISH in their SIN. Or do you inform them of their date with Hell as Ezekiel tells you to do?

Is THEIR BLOOD accounted to YOU, when your time comes to stand BEFORE the bema Seat of Christ? Do the Religious of the Day battle you as they do me? Or are you unnoticed?

Mark 13:13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Are you? NO? … is Christ lying about this hatred or are YOU not doing as your told?

John 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.

Does the World hate you?

You may notice my lack of address to pro. This is because I have no interest in discussing his opinions. I serve the Lord alone, and am uninterested in anyone’s opinion, not even my own. Point of fact , if you review all my debates, discussions and such you will see I don’t use “I THINK”, I don’t recommend any Believer of God to use it, because truth be told, what any of us thinks? Is completely pointless as it has no bearing on our purpose. We serve a Risen savior, WITH passion AND Prejudice. God says it That ENDS IT!

I have accepted this debate because it’s initiator brought up a subject and He IS WRONG! That ain’t opinion … That’s a Fact!

The ERROR? “Tithing is the drug of choice for many churches” “by old testament law and man.”

The ANSWER: FALSE

The Authority to determine truth or false: The Holy Scriptures ALONE!

Rationale: The scriptures do “NOT” anywhere state that TITHING is a Tax nor an OPTION! If you don’t give it are you going to Hell? No, your saved by Grace … God said it That ends it!

Will it impact you if you are unfaithful to God in tithes, no doubt but 1 Corinthians 3 makes this clear, the worse that CAN happen to you is that you’ll be the 1 Corinthians 3: 15 Christian … that isn’t obviously the best, but hey your saved, right? You’re not interested in earning rewards … okay? Not me though, God says I have the RIGHT to earn Son ship, and that’s what I’m shooting for, but I’ll be content wherever God puts me.

Debate Round No. 4
BackSeatPreacher

Pro

LoL! Con what was all that? Sounds like barking.. LoL
Con just forfeited in the last paragraph by stating Con has no interest in discussing Pro opinions. I have addressed ALL of Cons tithing teacher talking points and put them back into context to reveal the truth. Con has not addressed a single point. All he says is WRONG, and NO INTERPRETATIONS ALLOWED etc...
Well Con that is too bad, but lets give the voters a show with a quick Con smack down. LoL

Tithing, still the drug of choice for many churches and Con is a perfect example of its side effects.
The side effects are stunted growth of faith and wisdom. The forces involved in the constriction of spiritual growth are from fear, confusion, and distraction resulting in a spiritual midget. Remember in Hebrews 7 tithing was called a weak and unprofitable commandment (spiritually).. (Con didn't respond to that either)

The depth of Cons true understanding of what he is arguing on behalf of, is nothing deeper than regurgitated tithing teacher talking points, fear tactics, lies, and smoke screens..
Notice when Con was caught taking scripture out of context and right in front of our faces tried to pass off an additional statement to the end of a verse to try to bend it around to fit his narrative, but he got caught red handed. No he didn't respond to that one either. LoL

Cons Confusion - Con is trying really hard to say something but is confused within himself by saying things like, "DO NOT THINK" LoL "Those who know, know, and those who don't, don't know" LoL " Leave all teaching and instructions to him (God) alone in accordance to scripture"? LoL What verse was that? What that last one really says is, sit down, shut up, do what you are told..
Con refers to himself as a wandering slave with no direction by stating he will be content with wherever God puts him. That is a spiritual midget because Con is no longer allowed or permitted to think for himself, and he doesn't want us thinking for ourselves either.. LoL
This is a commonality to ALL tithing teachers and tithers. Con is reactive because tithing teaches reaction and tithers tend to stagnate because they are waiting to be told what to do so they can react, because they are told not to think, and they are being told to pay tithes which gets the hamster wheel turning, never an adventure, never seek out truth because you are not allowed to think or interpret because you are a human.. LoL This is what Con believes because he says it over and over. LoL

Con said tithing was NOT a requirement, but of course has absolutely zero scripture to back up a single thing he has had to say about tithing. But he seems to have a lot to say about it, but all he is left with is a lie that he is so desperately trying to keep alive even though he has no actual truth to grab on to.

Pro on the other hand, has laid out scripture and more scripture in a coherent manner. Constantly exposing every relevant misunderstanding and lie from Con. Smoke screen ignored.

Final conclusion -
Tithing is the drug of choice for many of the churches today, and here we have a classic doper, in denial when confronted with the truth.
Con never had any kind of intellectually stimulating points.
The truth is, Con doesn't know the truth and has no idea about tithes other than what he has been programmed to believe since he believes he is not allowed to think, nor to say the words I think, not allowed to interpret 2+2, nor is he allowed to live at all, because he keeps talking about dying with no idea what it means, and is a slave to a lie. He serves the lie, he works for the lie, and he believes the lie, even though he says he is not allowed to say I believe anything based on what he has stated ( Cons posting "you either are you you aren't, you cant say I believe") and last but not least, Con doesn't seem to know what a TAX is.. LoL so confusing..

Since Con has one more chance, lets be sure he has as much help as he can get because so far, all Con has done is confirm the accuracy of the initial statement that tithing is the drug of choice for many churches today. After all he is acting like a real drug addict in almost every way, its a little creepy.. LoL

However Con you still have another chance, so why don't you explain to us where the disciples taught tithing in any of the new testament churches other than the abolishment of tithes in Hebrews 7..? Oops, sorry, Con cant answer this.
How about you explain where the transition took place from old testament tithing to new testament tithing. Is there a difference? What verses explain these differences and give new instruction? No? Cant do that either con?

Look at the way Con talks, does he sound happy?
Nope,
Does he sound wise? Nay.
Does he sound spiritual? Spiritually confused, yes
Does he sound angry? Yes..
Does he sound generally confused? Definitely
Can we find any faith in Con? Too short to measure.

So here we have it, Wisdom usually associated with age which is associated with growth which is height is hard to find in Con, and since out of the abundance of the heart the mouth will speak, we can observe that Con could use some more wisdom. Faith is also a measurement of height in the spiritual world and not finding much of that either.
Therefore we have a genuine spiritual midget. Some people are happy this way, but if they knew the truth, they would be much more happier. Like night and day.

Ending statement to Con

2 Timothy 3:8-9
8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth. They are depraved in mind and disqualified from the faith. 9 But they will not advance much further. For just like Jannes and Jambres, their folly will be plain to everyone."
FollowerofChrist1955

Con


Our time together has come to an end, and I have enjoyed it immensely.


As you can SEE for yourselves, despite Gods Holy Word being shown to persons Like Pro ... it IS disregarded, for what? For what "THEY" believe. Despite Gods Word to "LEAN NOT" unto their OWN understanding that too is ignored! For What "THEIR" understanding. Despite the warning FROM God, that "THEIR THOUGHTS" are not His, they what? Yes they disregard the Word! For What? "Their OWN thoughts". For this cause they cannot be helped by anyone but God.


Undeniable truth of the Lie purpetrated by Pro insisting 2 Corithians 9:7 STATES TITHE!


I have shown you EVERY translation ... Tithe could NOT BE FOUND among them. But Pro? Pro see's ony what Pro WANTS to see!


I ask you? IS THIS a demonstration of a Follower of God? or a follower of SELF. Is this the KIND of relationship YOU have with the Living God? If so then 1 Corinthians 3:15 you simply MUST MEMORIZE ... because it speaks expressly about YOU! You should make inquiry to God for clarification of the ending, which I admit sounds most unpleasant.



"will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames."



People like Pro more times than not, go on steam born of ignorance, and complete inability to think in rational manners, they appear oblivious to the fact that Buildings are not given to the Church freely by city, State or Nation.


I once drove by as I often do, and viewed a gentleman at the Burger King attempting to sell a Grocery Store Gift card for money? AS I watched people pass by this person, refusing the offer, there was a stirring in my heart. I walked over Gave the gentleman the amount he was asking for and walked away leaving HIM the gift card … as a gift! It was Christmas after all.


Pro and others would merely passed by, but it’s the REASON they WOULD have passed by that IS significant? I have heard it all before, thanks to Gods teaching abilities of course, I can hear it Now?


He’ll only use it for Drugs.


He’ll only use it for Beer.


He’ll only use it for cigarettes.


I thought that at one time myself, long ago, and God spoke to my mind and stated outright, what business is it of YOURS to question my command to provide for your fellow man? Why do you second guess me? What business is it of yours why I have told you to give? Do you belong to me or do you belong to you? I have never questioned the act of giving again! I belong TO HIM. He says GIVE , I don’t “THINK” about it, I don’t ponder … as the scripture states …


Proverbs 14:22-24


22 Do not they err that imagine evil? but to them that think on good things, shall be mercy and truth.


23 In all labor there is abundance: but the talk of the lips bringeth only want.


24 The crown of the wise is their riches, and the folly of fools is foolishness.



Zechariah 7:10


And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the sojourner, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.



Exodus 22:21


"You shall not wrong a stranger or oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.



Pro and others will no doubt return with … but that was talking to the Jews back in ….



Isn’t that how the Minds of all humanity work? But this is HOW I can ignore the commands of God? Or that is a way to shirk MY responsibility and KEEP my money? Or this is the excuse I can use to make me feel less disobedient to the Word of God! Indeed, it is. But you’re “NOT” getting AWAY with it? You’re merely being FORGIVEN for it! And although you may not be using those same excuses, the end result IS in fact the same, isn’t it? You DON’T WANT to GIVE Money! The reasons you don’t are completely IRRELEVENT isn’t it …. You WITHHOLD from God and THAT my brothers and Sisters IS the point entirely! God after all is FAITHFUL to FORGIVE. Though YOU are UNFAITHFUL to GIVE!



As I sit and ponder tomorrow, I am reminded of the last days. The apostasy spoken of in 2 Thessalonians and how Gods instruction to us all that: 1 Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons, 2influenced by the hypocrisy of liars, whose consciences are seared with a hot iron.… 1 Timothy 4:1



The time is moving rapidly, and we must all understand that the apostasy, IF one merely watches their surroundings, may observe its passing, in the form of falling away, by man’s failings of trusting in logic are leading further and further astray!



Perhaps it is best scripture wise merely to place those things which shall be of best assistance to you! Such as John 6:45 where Christ first tells you that GOD HIMSELF shall teach you!



John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.


Isaiah 54:13


"All your sons will be taught of the LORD; And the well-being of your sons will be great.


1 John 2:27


And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught.


Philippians 3:15


All of us who are mature should embrace this point of view. And if you think differently about some issue, God will reveal this to you as well.



I can bear witness to the truth of these statements as I am not taught of Man, but God alone. Seek my debates search it for word usage such as I Think, I believe or I heard … you shall not find them. Christians who mature do not use them as they have died to self and self-thoughts relying exclusively on scriptures in speaking. Only God knows, which is WHY we do not NEED to think a thing, we must merely obey. Learn the truth provided by Christ Himself …. To DENY OURSELVES. This is not optional to the Disciple. EVERYTIME the Apostles attempted to tell Jesus their OWN points of view, they were greeted with rebuke … why?


Matthew 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns."



Luke 9:37-56 41 "O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you and put up with you? Bring your son here."



"My son, do not despise the Lord's discipline


and do not resent his rebuke,


because the Lord disciplines those he loves,


as a father the son he delights in." (Proverbs 3:11-12)



"Do everything without complaining or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe as you hold out the word of life...." (Philippians 2:14-16)



"He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it... Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith." (Titus 1:9, 13)



"While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 'Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men.' But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it." (9:43b-45)



Are WE better than they? More pure, more educated therefore infallible? Somehow less prone to misleading? Of Course not. In all you do, say, or give instruction of, let it be Gods Word, that you give not your views on it. Let Gods Word point and guide and lead, in this way as you have seen, the one who INTERPRETS is not giving you THE WORD … BUT THEIR WORD.



As you can bear witness now for yourselves. The word TITHE was “NEVER” found in 2 Corinthians 9:7, only the imaginings of Man was discovered! If you desire to be disobedient, be it then, take responsibility for your own actions. Do not lie to yourselves and others to make yourself somehow less greedy, somehow less unfaithful, and somehow less GUILTY! I tell you, God is not mocked ;



Galatians 6:7


7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.



I pray that The Lord guide you, lead you along the straight path. SEEK the Word of God in all your learning, rely not on the words of Men, who with cleverness of tongue through-HUMAN REASONING, set stumbling blocks before you, sets traps with which to pull you to the left or to the right! As instructed by God…



Avoid discussions that require imaginings, Such as THIS ONE .. Tithing is the drug of choice for many churches, Jesus Was a Liar, There is no proof of a God, Is Yeshua a good and qualified Leader? Today believe in religion slows the progress of science., Sola Fide is Scriptural, Is the King James Version the only true Bible? Is Jesus the God of the Bible?


They are but folly, led by fools who have no good thing in mind! Avoid them!



Instead tell how God saved us and can save them, and the consequences of Hell that awaits them? Yes they will turn on you, but be not dismayed at this … you HAVE fulfilled your duty to God and informed them that they SHALL die IN their sin? Prove nothing; it is not our place to do so. No one proved God to me BUT God! I was led by a person who WALKED the walk, not just talked it. Gods leading brought me to Him, by the obedient service of a follower of His.



Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.



I leave you with this consideration:


Mark 16:14 Later as they were eating, Jesus appeared to the eleven and rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.…



Underline where it tells you to PROVE him to the unbelievers?


Debate Round No. 5
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by BackSeatPreacher 6 months ago
BackSeatPreacher
oops sorry Maarj.evil.. I thought you said you were a satanist.. LoL My bad sorry about that..
Posted by BackSeatPreacher 6 months ago
BackSeatPreacher
I have never met a happy satanist.. LoL
Posted by MRAAJ.evil 6 months ago
MRAAJ.evil
Huh? What? Come Again?

How about you work on destroying follower' instead of calling me satanic, i didn't roll with them nutters.

Just stick to the topic n talk about tithes, n don't be a tit, u tit lool
Posted by BackSeatPreacher 6 months ago
BackSeatPreacher
Mraaj.evil LoL sorry I didnt know you were a Satanist. I can tell by your words how happy u are about that..
Posted by BackSeatPreacher 6 months ago
BackSeatPreacher
I agree, without money there is no drugs.. LoL
Posted by canis 6 months ago
canis
Its not a drug..Its what pays the drug...
Posted by MRAAJ.evil 6 months ago
MRAAJ.evil
"Or is the PLAN to have Churches funded by the government ... in which case Homsexuals, LGBT and murders, theives, pornagraphy producers, Satanists, Witches, and every other diseased mind MUST BE allowed to Join the Church, not to mention Marriage requirements for the Pastors, Preachers and Priest MUST marry same sex couples or have Federal Funding pulled and the Doors barred!"

DA FUQ U SMOKING DUDE, that's so irrelevant. And why would a satanic lass go church!? Dumbo
Posted by BackSeatPreacher 6 months ago
BackSeatPreacher
I will respond when I get home tonight. This is the first I have ever heard it suggested to have the government take care of business. LoL I think its hilarious. Anyway, will take follower to the woodshed tonight! Hopefully in a good way.. LoL Fun!
Posted by MRAAJ 6 months ago
MRAAJ
If I am correct, a Tithe is 1/10th of a member's annual earnings, a sort of tax for the support of the Church, correct?

I believe it should not be an enforcement, instead they should fellow the temple system where you donate as much as you like. Of course, the tithe system is more sustainable, however an outsider can easily point out that the money can be used for wrongdoing n corruption. Much like any charity, no one really knows where the money goes. Nonetheless, I'll be impartial because I can see where both parties are coming from, my gran works in a temple so I understand the ins n outs of religious business.

I think churches should be publically funded by tax payers, via gov. regulation to limit reckless spending by church owners.
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