The Instigator
camelunfiltered
Pro (for)
Losing
12 Points
The Contender
Xera
Con (against)
Winning
39 Points

To beleive in immortality is to fear death.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/1/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,087 times Debate No: 4564
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (17)

 

camelunfiltered

Pro

I would first like to say that this is my first debate on this site. I hope there are those out there that meet my instigation with mindful inquiry. Who knows, maybe I'll think differently in the end.

To beleive in everlasting life is to provide an alternative for death, or to create an extension of life after death. Since death is a proven and inevitable fact, and everlasting life is a conception, to beleive in immortality is to be in denial. denial is to be afraid to face something in such a manner that it is shut out or explained or assured with such examples as immortality. Denial is an extension of fear. I finish a statement with a quote from Mr. Durden himself. "On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everything drops to zero."

Open for business, fellas
Xera

Con

I will take you up on this debate and hope I do a good job for you. It's my first time too: D. I have debated on other sites before, but only just stumbled on this one when my daughter showed it to me.

Let us start please by defining immortality and belief because those two words are the basic lynch pin of my assertions. I chose the second definition in both cases, because the first definition was nothing but root word. From dictionary.com:

Belief:

2. Confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof:

Immortality:

2. Endless life or existence

I take the Con side obviously. I maintain that it is possible that to believe in immortality is not to fear death. If I can show any reason a person might believe in immortality, for any length of time, that is not fear of death, I should win this debate. There are two possibilities here:

1) It is possible that having confidence in an endless existence can be due to a true faith that death does not apply to the believer. It is almost impossible to fear what one does not believe applies to oneself.

Take for example black holes. I am reasonably sure, without seeing it for myself, that black holes exist. I am also reasonably sure that one will never directly affect me. I know that if one were to directly affect me it would be very bad. I am not afraid of this very bad thing because it does not apply to me. People do not frequently fear what does not apply to them. Death does not apply to those that believe in immortality, at least in their minds. This is because they have a conviction that death does not apply.

2) This is my primary argument. The resolution does not require that one believe in his or her own immortality, just immortality in general. The resolution does not specify that the immortality in question be wanted. I maintain that there are times immortality would not be wanted.

If say, my life suddenly got much much worse, and I was the prisoner of a psycho that enjoyed hurting people and leaving them alive to be hurt. I am very much afraid of that pain. I do NOT want to feel that pain. The psycho has a very well timed heart attack and dies. I suddenly become terrified that his corpse will reanimate and come after me again. I am so terrified of it that I am absolutely CONVINCED the corpse will have an endless existence.

Follow the steps:

1. I fear a person will cause me intense physical pain (but not death)
2. That person dies
3. I fear that person has a magical way of not dying (as in any horror movie)
4. I fear life exists in the dead person
5. I fear a dead person is immortal
7. My belief in immortality for this person is stemmed by my fear of his or her being alive.

Now: I believe immortality because I fear life.

A reasonable argument could also be made that I fear the intense physical pain so much that fear has caused my fear (belief) of immortality. Either way, it is not a fear of death.

I have shown that belief in immortality can be caused by reasons other than fear of death.
Debate Round No. 1
camelunfiltered

Pro

Xera, I appreciate your quick challenge greatly, however the points in your argument fall askew of the subject at hand.

In your first argument you stated that black holes generally would not cause fear because they do not apply to most. However, a black hole is a terrible example as thier role in human life is very far away, however death is a direct and inevitable part in everyone's life. Because black holes show applicable evidence of not affecting humans on earth for millions of years, and also because it is absolute that death will occur among every human being now and as long as we exist, it is impossible to say that death will not apply to a person eventually. this example holds no sway on the instigation.

Also in your first argument you stated that death does not apply to beleivers in immortality, at least in thier minds. Immortality is a direct condradiction to death. the perennial beleif is that when you "die", your soul leaves your body shell and becomes an everlasting existence wherever. The definition you put up stated that immortality is endless life or existence. To contradict something that is proven fact and happens every day with a concept that is unproven is still denial.

Dictionary.com defines denial as:

an unconscious defense mechanism used to reduce anxiety by denying thoughts, feelings, or facts that are consciously intolerable.

Death is a fact. Immortality is a beleif; a subject of thoughts. The last time I checked, death is the ultimate intolerable. Anxiety is a product of fear.
Death especially applies to those that beleive in immortality.

Your second argument does not corrolate with the instigation at all. You make a detailed point, however fear of immortality is not the subject at hand, fear of death is. Not only does this argument not explain how one would not be afraid of death and still beleive in being immortal, but it actually supports my statement. Pain is a nerve reaction that communicates that if you continue the action that emits pain, the possibility of DEATH could occur. Pinching yourself obviously won't kill you, but your nervous system doesn't know that, so pain is still felt, and generally one would stop pinching if it hurt bad enough. Survival is the main function of the body in an ultimate sense, and the mentality that one would live forever is a psychological means of survival. Fear is an emotional mechanism for survival. Need I explain more?

And finally: You have shown that belief in immortality can be caused by other reasons other than fear of death, but that absolutely does not disprove that to beleive in immortality is to fear death. In fact, you supported it.
If you beleive the psycho is immortal and thus will cause you more pain, than in reality you fear that he will bring you closer to death. But that isnt even the heart of it. If the point in my instigation were to apply to your off-topic argument, than if the psycho was hurting you (bringing you closer to death) you would be thinking "I am immortal, if this man were to kill me, than I will just become an everlasting entity." This means once again that you are denying a solid fact with an unproven conception (being in denial). Therefore my point is once again proven, and your arguments do not prove me wrong in the least.

Of course if immortality is proven than my point is void. Although I am enthusiastic about the possibility, it is still unproven and therefore a conception.
Xera

Con

Extend arguments from R1: Belief in immortality is belief that death of consciousness does not exist and is not something that would inspire fear.

By agreeing that black holes have no effect on humans and that is why we don't fear them, you agree that humans do not fear what does not affect them. This proves my point.

You claim my example holds no sway because death is "absolute" fact. I do not concede that death has been proven; at least not in the context you are using the word- as an utter cessation of awareness. I will expand upon this later.

Your claim "To contradict something…proven fact and happens every day with a concept that is unproven is still denial'. Since you haven't proven death, only stated it is proven, this has no bearing.

Your rebuttal of my second allegory: Recall you admitted that, for the most part we don't fear black holes because they don't affect us. So, you agree we don't fear what does not affect us. So, if we fear something then it affects us. For it to affect us we must first believe it is real. Fear is equal to belief. A fear of immortality is a belief in immortality.

"Fear of immortality is not the subject at hand, fear of death is" Wrong: The subject at hand is belief in immortality. Your stance is that this is related to fear of death

You claim that survival is the primary function of the body without supporting this with facts. A starving pregnant woman who remains pregnant proves that the biological imperative of the female is to reproduce, not to survive, since survival would be more likely w/out the fetus.

"If you believe the psycho is immortal …than if the psycho was hurting you … you would be thinking "I am immortal"

I clearly said: "The resolution does not require that one believe in his or her own immortality" The resolution is that all belief in immortality is a fear of death. This allegory is used to describe a situation in which I would believe in immortality for someone else (Psycho), and that in this situation I would not WANT immortality to be real. This shows that the root of the belief is fear that it is true and that it will lead to pain. I am alleging here that it is possible that to believe in immortality is to fear pain, not death, thereby refuting the resolution.

I have tried to find something that gives any indication that pain is in fact ONLY a response that applies to proximity to death. http://www.ahs.uwaterloo.ca... is the closest thing I could find, and all it really says is that pain is necessary to survival, that pain is a perception of damage, even when none occurs, and HURT IS NOT THE SAME AS HARM. (Harm can lead to death, hurt can not)

You state: death is a proven and inevitable fact.

1. Death, as you are using the word (the total cessation of life) has not been proven true. The truth is ‘now, on this world, the physical body will cease being animated at some point and that it will begin the process of rotting.' That is all that has been PROVEN true.

2. Considering the # of scientific advances made every year, at some point it could be possible to conquer all causes of physical death. I doubt this, but, unless it is impossible, death is not inevitable.

You clearly state that death is proven and that immortality is the concept. You have not proven souls a) do not exist OR b) die at the same time as the body; either would make death final and complete. Therefore in the context of spiritual immortality, you have not proven that death of the physical shell is even related to death

You state: Belief in immortality is to be in denial.

Christians believe Jesus said, "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak (Matthew 26:41)" this is an illustration that to believers the soul and the body are fundamentally different things- even in life. A belief in spiritual life does not invalidate a belief in physical life. Those with this belief typically won't deny the physical death of the body; rather the COMPLETENESS of death as it pertains to spiritual consciousness is in doubt, you will need to show that death is in fact complete loss of all awareness.

In my first round I showed how a true belief that one will live forever, if only spiritually, requires one to have confidence in endless existence. That confidence means that, in THE MIND OF THE BELIEVER, death does not apply. You countered by stating that death applies to all. However you failed in three ways with this rebuttal:

1. You failed to show how the FACT of death applying had anything to do with the BELIEF that death does not apply (this is in addition to failing to prove true death occurs)
2.**Belief in something that could not possibly be would be insanity, and would not fall under the purview of the argument as insanity is not subject to any standards of logic. In other words, your argument opens the ground for the rebuttal that: to believe in immortality is to be insane. THIS DIRECTLY REFUTES THE RESOLUTION. This should end the debate. **
3. You failed to prove that death actually did apply to all.

In your rebuttal to my stance: fearing a psycho's unwillingness to stay dead.

I had already shown that most will not fear what they do not believe will effect them, with the black hole statement. Even if it is momentary, the fear that death did not apply to the psycho would be due to a belief in same as follows: We do not fear what we do not believe in ---> To fear is to believe ---> To fear that psycho won't stay dead is to believe that he won't stay dead ---> The fear that he won't die is due to the belief he won't die-->The belief he won't die is tied to the fear of him living--->Fear of his immortality is fear of his life.

I have shown:

1. Even physical death has not proven to be inevitable at all points in time
2. The completeness of death has not been proven
3. Physical death does not disprove the concept of a spiritual life and death
4. Spiritual death has not been proven
5. Fear and belief are fundamentally linked
6. Pain is not fundamentally linked to harm or death
7. Belief in immortality can be insanity or fear of pain.

Thank you, Camelunfiltered, for taking the time to read through this posting. Any grammatical errors are due to the original rebuttal being 11,000 characters in length and needing to have so many characters removed.
Debate Round No. 2
camelunfiltered

Pro

camelunfiltered forfeited this round.
Xera

Con

I guess my opponent was not able to respond.

So ladies and gentlemen allow me to reiterate my previous points

My opponent's position was dependent upon the concept that death, as it has been proven to exist, be in opposition to the concept of eternal life. As there is no proof that death actually is the end of all life, I have refuted the basis for my opponents claim.

In addition I offer an alternative possibility which my opponent has not refuted:

To believe immortality is to be insane

due to these arguments, the only logical vote is a vote for CON.
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Xera 8 years ago
Xera
camelunfiltered, I understand not being able to find time to finish the debate. I want to thank you too for a great debate, I really enjoyed working on this.

JakeRoss: What was I smoking? I had meant to say, next time you ring up the dead, see if you can get Elvis and figure out why he always hangs out in gas stations in Omaha.
Posted by camelunfiltered 8 years ago
camelunfiltered
Xera, sorry I wasnt able to finish it out. I had a court date and several other duties to attend to and I simply couldn't finish. But thank you for being a good debater and not a jerkoff.
Posted by Xera 8 years ago
Xera
Maya, are you suggesting that the only form of life is a life capable of communicating with you?

JakeRoss: Next time, see if you phone Elvis, just to put that gas station attendent in Omaha in her place :D
Posted by JakeRoss 8 years ago
JakeRoss
The last time ive talk to a dead person was last week. he was very interesting.:p
Posted by Maya9 8 years ago
Maya9
To believe in immortality is to be quite insane, if you define insanity as being out of touch with reality. After all, when is the last time you talked with a dead person?
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