The Instigator
mjvoss
Pro (for)
Winning
76 Points
The Contender
Solarman1969
Con (against)
Losing
12 Points

To show that Solarman is one seriously messed-up person with regards to Islam

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/1/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,501 times Debate No: 1234
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (47)
Votes (28)

 

mjvoss

Pro

Ok, Solarman. I will give some background information. I am a devout Muslim who defends my religion with every chance I get. Since you are so ardent in your belief that Islam is a "death cult" (how ridiculous) and that no Islamic countries have women's rights (such an absurd thing to say), and other shocking and inexcusably wrong things, then I would like to prove to you why I follow my religion and why I do not do the horrible acts radical terrorists do.

Now, here are your rules. You cannot quote the hadith. I do not follow the hadith for religious advice since the hadith has contradictory statements with the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the pure Word of God to me, and therefore, if you have problems with my religion and you want to say my religion is bad, then you must take it from the Qur'an. The hadith is not fully credible since it was passed down for some 600 years before written down. Although the hadith was written in a very scientific fashion, the only thing I take for the Word of God is the Qur'an.

Also, to keep from copy/pasting a page full of quotes from some site that promotes hate (which leads to violence) against Islam, you must post a maximum of five quotes that you think are the WORSE things you can find. I will debunk them using the Arabic they originated from.

Another thing: I have experienced many times ad hominem attacks in debates, and since I know that you are likely to do such, I will ask that you refrain from doing it. You only lose your credibility if you do. I will share the same respect.

Have at it.
Solarman1969

Con

this will be the easiest debate yet

First I am going to challenge you on your savior, Muhammed (may he rot in purgatory forever!)

Do you worship him?

Is he your savior?

If so, why do you follow a murderous tyrant who spent his life raping, killing , stealing, torturing, and pretty much any other awful subhuman thing you can think of?

His followers are still doing his bidding today, exactly as he did

they (the terrorists)are the "good Muslims"

And if you want to argue with that premise here are some facts for you

Consider this quote from the Saudi ruling family's favorite imam, al Buraik. He's not only licensed, he's atop the pecking order.

Prior to a telethon hosted to enrich the families of Palestinian suicide bombers, this esteemed cleric said, "I am against America. She is the root of all evils and wickedness on earth. Muslims, don't take Jews and Christians as allies. Muslim brothers in Palestine, do not have any mercy or compassion on them, their blood, their money, or their flesh. Their women are yours to take, legitimately. Allah made them yours. Why don't you enslave their women? Why don't you wage jihad? Why don't you pillage them?"

Do you suppose the licensed Saudi cleric was corrupting Islam too? Sorry. It's Allah who commands Muslims not to befriend Christians and Jews, for he wants them killed.

Qur'an 5:51 "O believers, do not hold Jews and Christians as your allies. They are allies of one another; and anyone who makes them his friends is one of them."

Qur'an 2:10 "As for those who deny Islam...they shall be the fa**ots for the Fire of Hell."

Islam's god is a spirit of an entirely different color.

Ishaq:327 "Allah said, 'A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.'"

The Saudi imam has correctly interpreted Islam's message.

Bukhari:V5B59N512 "The Prophet had their men killed, their children and woman taken captive."

Qur'an 33:26 "Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before."

Qur'an 47:4 "When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam."

want some more?

How about Muhammed's life?

According to the Hadith and Qur'an, Muhammad and his henchmen plundered their way to power and prosperity. Their bloody conquests rivaled those of the Assyrians, Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, and more recently Adolf Hitler. But Muhammad's murderous behavior didn't begin until he was halfway through his career.

The five oldest and most trusted Islamic sources don't portray Muhammad as a great and godly man. They reveal that he was a thief, a liar, an assassin, a pedophile, a womanizer, a rapist, a mass murderer, a pirate, a warmonger, and a scheming and ruthless politician. It's hardly the character profile of a religious leader. Gandhi he was not.

Muhammad became so afraid of being exposed, he ordered his followers to assassinate anyone who criticized him. The first was a poet named Ashraf.

This Hadith is from Bukhari's Collection, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 270: Bukhari:V4B52N270 "Allah's Messenger said, 'Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.' Maslama got up saying, 'Would you like me to kill him?' The Prophet proclaimed, 'Yes.' Maslama said, 'Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.' Muhammad said, 'You may do so.'" Islam gives Muslims a license to lie and kill.

Ashraf suspected no evil when Maslama cried, 'Smite the enemy of Allah!' So they smote him, and their swords clashed over him. Maslama said, 'I remembered my dagger and I seized it. I thrust it into the lower part of his body. I bore down upon it until I reached his genitals. Allah's enemy fell to the ground.'"

Ishaq revealed this in the Sira, or biography, of Muhammad: Ishaq:368 "We carried his head back to Muhammad during the night, saluted the Prophet as he stood praying, and cast Ashraf's head before his feet. The Prophet praised Allah that the poet had been slain, and complimented us on the good work we had done in Allah's Cause. Our attack upon Allah's enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life.'"

Murder and terror are Islam's "good works."

While hideous, this act does not stand alone. Soon thereafter, Muhammad ordered Muslims to assassinate Sallam.

Tabari, Islam's earliest historian, explains: Tabari VII:101 "They asked the Prophet for permission to kill Sallam. He granted it."

Tabari VII:99 "When they got to Khaybar they went to Sallam's house by night, having locked every door in the settlement on the inhabitants. He was in an upper chamber. His wife came out and asked who we were. We told her that we were Arabs in search of supplies. She told us that her husband was in bed. We entered and bolted his door. His wife shrieked and warned him of us, so we ran at him with our swords as he lay on his bed. When we had smitten him Abdallah bore down his sword into his belly until it went right through him. 'By the God of the Jews, he is dead!' Never have I heard sweeter words than those. We returned to Allah's Apostle and told him that we had killed his enemy. We disputed before him as to who had killed him, each of us laying claim to the deed. Muhammad demanded to see our swords and when he looked at them he said, 'It is the sword of Abdallah that killed him; I can see traces of food on it.'"

Deceiving victims is still standard operating procedure for Muslim militants. Attacking defenseless civilians is the very definition of terror. And so is gloating. Today's Islamic terrorists are as eager as Muhammad's original henchmen to claim "credit" for their deeds.

What you are going to read from Islam's most holy books will begin as laughable; the creation accounts are dimwitted to the point of being delirious. The religion's desperate grope to convolute the lives and times of Biblical patriarchs to establish a sense of legitimacy for its scriptures, shrine, rituals, god, and prophet is pathetic. As the chronology marches on you'll meet Qusayy, Muhammad's great, great, great grandfather, and discover how he invented the five pillars of Islam as a mystic scam.

The Qur'an may be the worst book ever written. It is jumbled together haphazardly. It's almost as if verses were tossed into the air, blown by the wind, and then pieced together as they were plucked from the sand. The 1st surah, or chapter, was never revealed, and it's written in the wrong voice. The 2nd surah was the ninety-first received chronologically, yet it is the first revelation in the Qur'an. The 5th surah was the last in order of alleged revelation. Muhammad claims that his initial inspiration can be found in the 96th surah, which means Allah's initial salvo is tucked in the back of the book.

Unrelated subjects are brought together without intelligent transitions. Allah's book lacks context as well. It does not explain who is talking to whom or even when or where its narratives took place. But that's not the worst of it. The Qur'an is so poorly written that one in five verses makes no sense in any language. This is why Muslims don't want it translated
Debate Round No. 1
mjvoss

Pro

To start, I am ignoring all that you quote from the Hadith, since anything that contradicts the Qur'an is false by default. Also, ibn Ishaq's biography was not written from empirical data, but only from oral accounts, so I will ignore that as well. Why? First, I said to use the Qur'an only. That was a ground rule! Second, it's hearsay, so it doesn't prove anything. Lastly, you know that Muhammad wouldn't go against the Qur'an, so you must respect the ground rules of this debate and try to show that the Qur'an itself supposedly commanded him to do the heinous things you've listed.

1) "this will be the easiest debate yet"

Don't count your chickens before they hatch.

2) "Do you worship him?"

Muslims don't worship prophets.

3) "Is he your savior?"

No. And just by your asking me those questions, you're showing an enormous lack of knowledge of my religion. I don't need to answer the next question, since it's premised on my saying "yes" to the foregoing.

4) "His followers are still doing his bidding today, exactly as he did"

God's followers are doing God's bidding, which is good works. The term "Muhammad's followers" is a misnomer and would not refer to true Muslims at all. Strictly speaking, no Muslim *follows* Muhammad, only God.

5) "they (the terrorists)are the "good Muslims""

False. [5:32] "For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land."

6) Saudi Quote. Breaking the ground rules again. I don't care what others say, even if they claim to be Muslim scholars. I only care what the Qur'an says.

7) You quoted verse 5:51 in the Qur'an, which allegedly says: 5:51 ("O believers, do not hold Jews and Christians as your allies. They are allies of one another; and anyone who makes them his friends is one of them.") "Allies" is a mistranslation. The word is <'awliyaa'>, which means "protectors." The context is wartime. The enemy are the pagans who are trying to crush the Muslims. The Qur'an was instructing Muslims not to run for the Jews and Christians for protection. They must stand up for themselves against the attacks instead. What would the Torah have instructed to the Israelites on this matter? "Run to the Persians cuz they'll protect you"?

8) Quote: "Qur'an 2:10 "As for those who deny Islam...they shall be the fa**ots for the Fire of Hell.""

I didn't realize you could just make up stuff when trying to quote something! Look up that verse for yourself. It says: "In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves)." "They" in this verse is referring to which are the pagans who are trying to kill the Muslims.

9) Quote: "Qur'an 33:26 "Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before." Once again, you misquoted the Qur'an very badly. The correct quote: "And He brought those of the People of the Scripture who supported them down from their strongholds, and cast panic into their hearts. Some ye slew, and ye made captive some." This refers to the People of the Book who aid the kaafiruun.

10) Here's 47:4 in the correct translation. Stop cutting and pasting from prophetofdoom.com. It only destroys your credibility. Qur'an [47:4] "Now when ye meet in battle those who are kaafiruun, then it is striking at the necks until, when ye have routed them, making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain."

The correct translation speaks for itself. Interesting that the Arabic word "jihad" doesn't appear at all in that verse. Anyway, this verse is clearly meant for times of war against those who were seeking to destroy the small community that made up the fledgling religion.

11) Muhammad's Life. "According to the Hadith and Qur'an..." - Breaking the ground rules again. We aren't talking about the Hadith, remember? "Muhammad and his henchmen plundered their way to power and prosperity." - Tell me where it says that in the Qur'an.

"The five oldest and most trusted Islamic sources" - Breaking the ground rules again. But what are these "five oldest" sources? Answer that question, despite your having plagiarized this. "They reveal that he was a thief, a liar, an assassin, a pedophile, a womanizer, a rapist, a mass murderer, a pirate, a warmonger, and a scheming and ruthless politician. It's hardly the character profile of a religious leader." - Show me evidence of this in the Qur'an.

Ibn Ashraf was killed because he was gathering for an uprising against Muhammad. He was planning an attack to kill that small community of Muslims. And even so, this is hearsay, someone's interpretation of what happened. No eye-witness ever wrote anything down to suggest that this happened, but if it did, it was wartime. Same goes with the other dude.

12) What is in the Qur'an. I'll look past the fact that you got this off of <http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com... > under the comments section. But since you did plagiarize someone else's writing, you'll have to explain it. Why are the creation accounts "dimwitted to the point of being delirious?" You made an accusation with nothing to back it up. And because the Qur'an doesn't exactly tell the same thing as the Bible, does that make it false? How does that have *anything* to do with *anything*? As far as the order of the suwar, that's not the order of the revelation, and it doesn't matter. Each sura has a reason for being there and has a story to say. And can you tell me what that verse is that "Muslims don't want it translated?"

So far, almost your entire argument has been copy/paste off of the following sites. You should be wise not to do this as it only destroys your credibility.

http://groups.google.com...
http://www.prophetofdoom.net...
http://www.prophetofdoom.net...
http://www.prophetofdoom.net...
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com...
Solarman1969

Con

Ok Gee

So Now I am going to have to follow YOUR RULES?

WRONG!

I dont have to follow your or anyones rules

Almost ALL terrorists are Muslims

Almost ALL muslims follow Muhammed as their sacred prophet

Muhammed was a terrorist, plain and simple

Your dissembling and trying to narrow the discussion to your cherry picked range of topics DOES NOT CHANGE ANY OF THESE FACTS

You can be a perfectly good muslim and be a nice , productive citizen and good family man and nice to your wife and never harm a flea

thats GREAT ! GOOD FOR YOU ! I WISH YOU THE BEST !

OFF LIMITS ! waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! OFF LIMITS!

nice try!

Now I am going to return to pointing out why ISLAM, TRUE ISLAM, which has as its lone and only prophet Muhammed, and its moon-god Allah, is

(1) the biggest threat by far to the world
(2) oppressive of everyone, especially women
(3) in need of exposure, and eventually elimination, from planet earth

I quote ALI SINA here www.faithfreedom.org

Faith Freedom International is a grassroots movement of those who asked prohibited questions and on that account lost their faith. We came to see that Islam is a hoax.

It is an imperialistic ideology, disguised as religion, invented by Muhammad for his own personal gains. With a promise of a carnal and orgiastic paradise (just for men) and threat of hell he goaded his foolhardy followers to raid and slay innocent people under the pretext that they were infidels.

He and his merry band of terrorists looted their villages and cities, raped the women, and enslaved all who were not killed outright. To this day, Muslim terrorists are following the footsteps of their prophet who bragged, "I have been made victorious with terror" [Bukhari 4.52.220].

No other cause is responsible for more deaths than Islam.

Isn't this alone proof enough that Islam is evil? Our goal is to expose this religion of terror and warn of its danger.

We also want to help Muslims see the stupidity of it, end their "us" vs. "them" ethos and embrace the human race in amity.

No one is their enemy; it is they who are the enemy to everyone else.

We strive for the unity of mankind through the elimination of Islam, the most insidious doctrine of hate.

Humanity is one; let not charlatans like Hitler and Muhammad divide us with their big lies.

Islam can't be reformed, but it can be eradicated.

It can't be molded, but it can be smashed.

It is rigid, but brittle. That is why Muhammad could not tolerate criticism of it.

To eradicate Islam, all we have to do is tell the truth. It's that simple.

This was not possible before, but with the help of the Internet, it is now.

The asininity of this creed is so glaringly obvious that it boggles the mind. All it takes to see that is to read the Qur'an.

The truth about Islam is out. It's here on this site. With truth and reason alone we can demolish this tall tower of lies.

If you help spread the truth we can bring this house of cards down sooner than anyone can imagine. With truth, the decent Muslims will leave Islam and with each Muslim that leaves, we gain a new soldier in our fight against terrorism.

We are growing exponentially. The days of Islam are numbered and better days are ahead. Many of us will see that day. Meanwhile, we may have to go through dreadful times. A storm is approaching.

It will wipe out Islam, but it will also destroy millions of lives in its path. We can avoid this Armageddon if we stop lying.

Islam is not a religion of peace.

It is evil.

It is a dangerous cult of death and terror.

The proof is here. Let us tell the truth. Save lives, not lies.

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.

Do something and save the world. To become a soldier in this army of light, all you have to do is find and face the truth (this site exists to help). Let the truth reach the world. It will do its work.

--- Now , I will cover your favorite book ---

you say Craig Winn horribly misinteprets the Qu-ran , but your translations are pretty much the same as his, and you make mountains out of molehills in trying to parse words and make KILL AND ENSLAVE THE JEWS! mean anything but

and you also make much of my quoting other scholars, as if that is some black mark, but this is NOT SCHOOL, and there ARE NO RULES HERE other than the basic no insults etc.

OK , the Qu-ran

Give me YOUR INTERPREATATION of these translations

Qur'an:8:12 "I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle."

Qur'an:8:57 "If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned."

Qur'an:7:3 "Little do you remember My warning. How many towns have We destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them."

Qur'an:33:26 "Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before."

Qur'an:59:2 "It was Allah who drove the [Jewish] People of the Book from their homes and into exile. They refused to believe and imagined that their strongholds would protect them against Allah. But Allah came at them from where they did not suspect, and filled their hearts with terror. Their homes were destroyed. So learn a lesson, O men who have eyes. This is My warning...they shall taste the torment of Fire."

Qur'an:33:60 "Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy - a fierce slaughter - murdered, a horrible murdering."

Boy, nice stuff

How about this from muhmmamed, who aint your guy, from Allah?

Qur'an 49:1 "Believers, be not forward in the presence of Allah and His Messenger, and fear Allah. Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor speak loudly around him, as you speak to one another, lest your deeds become nullified unconsciously. Those that lower their voices in the presence of the Messenger have their hearts tested by Allah. Theirs will be an immense reward."

Qur'an 33:36 "No Muslim has any choice after Allah and His Apostle have decided a matter."

Qur'an 33:56 "Allah and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. So believers, send your blessings on him, and salute him with all respect - a worthy salutation. Those who annoy Allah and His Messenger and speak evil things of them - Allah has cursed them and prepared a humiliating torment."

Qur'an 33:57 "Those who speak negatively of Allah and His Apostle shall be cursed."

Boy , you better watch out trashing Muhammed ! here it says that he's Allah's one and only apostle

How about choice ?

Qur'an 33:36 "It is not fitting for a Muslim man or woman to have any choice in their affairs when a matter has been decided for them by Allah and His Messenger. They have no option. If any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a wrong Path."

Boy! that doesnt sound like FREE WILL to me

Now how about some nice peaceful stuff?

Qur'an 47:33 "Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace."

Oh darn!

I guess it is not the religion of peace, but PIECES

www.religionofpeace.com

Good luck , APOLOGIST FOR MASS MURDER AND TERROR

and happy new year !
Debate Round No. 2
mjvoss

Pro

The reason those rules were placed is because I knew you would abuse the resources from which I expected you to make your arguments. Those resources being anti-Islamic hate sites. Your abuse will not be entertained, I assure you. Technically, I should only take one more Qur'anic verse since I told you to give me five of the WORST ones you could find so I could educate you about them. But what you are giving me are hardly even questionable. All it takes is to get a correct translation to prove my point.

1) Ali Sina. You just quoted a bunch of unsupported accusations. They do not merit a response.

2) Quote: "you say Craig Winn horribly misinteprets the Qu-ran , but your translations are pretty much the same as his, and you make mountains out of molehills in trying to parse words and make KILL AND ENSLAVE THE JEWS! mean anything but"

Actually, quite the opposite. I have proved why these verses are there, what the real translations are, the nuances of the Arabic and what that means to the quote, and ultimately, why that certain quote is not sufficient in proving Islam is bad.

3) Plagiarizing. Quote: "and you also make much of my quoting other scholars, as if that is some black mark, but this is NOT SCHOOL, and there ARE NO RULES HERE other than the basic no insults etc."

Plagiarizing shows that you cannot come up with arguments on your own. You can take others ideas, but if you plagiarize, especially in the manner in which you have, then you make accusations which you cannot support and, when I pull out the fatal flaws in them, you cannot defend against. Furthermore, your plagiarism is borderline pathological since (1) you cannot stop, and (2) you see no problem in continuing.

4) Qur'anic quotes.

All of the following quotes first state the first part of what you believed the translation to be (I don't have enough room to put the entire quote) and then state the much more precise translation. As an added bonus, the words "alladhina kafaru" have been added beside the part of the translation that is referring to those who reject and seek to destroy Islam, and the quotes all refer to wartime. Additionally, the word "hypocrites" is not accurately translated. The real word is closer to "traitor." They are basically people who claim to side with the Muslims, then turn their backs and work for the "kafaru." The word it says in the Qur'an is is "minafiqun."

8:12 "I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound..."

>>>Pickthal's translation (8:12): "When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve [alladhina kafaru]. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger."

8:57 "If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict..."

>>>Pickthal's translation (8:57): "If thou comest on them [alladhina kafaru] in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

33:26 "Allah made the Jews leave their homes..."

>>>Pickthal's translation (33:26): "And He brought those of the People of the Scripture who supported them [alladhina kafaru] down from their strongholds, and cast panic into their hearts. Some ye slew, and ye made captive some."

33:36 - You actually list two different passages for this one verse.
First: "It is not fitting for a Muslim man or woman..."
And then: 33:36 "No Muslim has any choice after Allah..."

>>>Pickthal's translation (33:36): "And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest."

You cannot argue against God or Muhammad. Big deal. In Christianity, you cannot argue against God or Jesus.

33:56 "Allah and His angels shower blessings..."

>>>Pickthal's translation (33:56): "Lo! Allah and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation."

There's no problem here. Muslims respect the prophet, we do not worship him.

33:57 "Those who speak negatively of Allah and His Apostle shall be cursed."

>>>Pickthal's translation (33:57): "Lo! those who malign Allah and His messenger, Allah hath cursed them in the world and the Hereafter, and hath prepared for them the doom of the disdained."

Nothing wrong with cursing those who malign God and Muhammad. Why would any Muslim do that? Why would any Christian do that to Jesus or God?

33:60 "Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition..."

>>>Pickthal's translation (33:60-61): "If the hypocrites [al-munafiqun], and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbours in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter."

Not only does it refer to al-munafiqun, but it is also "if they do not cease."

47:3 "Little do you remember My warning. How many towns..."

>>>Pickthal's translation (47:3): "That is because those who disbelieve [alladhina kafaru] follow falsehood and because those who believe follow the truth from their Lord. Thus Allah coineth their similitudes for mankind."

49:1 "Believers, be not forward in the presence..."

>>>Pickthal's translation (49:1-3): "O ye who believe! Be not forward in the presence of Allah and His messenger, and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is Hearer, Knower. O ye who believe! Lift not up your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor shout when speaking to him as ye shout one to another, lest your works be rendered vain while ye perceive not. Lo! they who subdue their voices in the presence of the messenger of Allah, those are they whose hearts Allah hath proven unto righteousness. Theirs will be forgiveness and immense reward."

Why would any Muslim want to disrespect the Prophet by raising his voice over his? Why would a Muslim shout at the Prophet? Respect toward the Prophet is required.

59:2 "It was Allah who drove the [Jewish] People..."

>>>Pickthal's translation (59:2): "He it is Who hath caused those of the People of the Scripture who disbelieved [alladhina kafaru] to go forth from their homes unto the first exile. Ye deemed not that they would go forth, while they deemed that their strongholds would protect them from Allah. But Allah reached them from a place whereof they recked not, and cast terror in their hearts so that they ruined their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers. So learn a lesson, O ye who have eyes!"

This is basically saying that they cannot hide from God.

You have yet to prove anything, Solarman. You are being defeated through your constant plagiarism, horrible translations, and false reasoning.
Solarman1969

Con

So you try and parse words and deny reality.

You seem to be a rational muslim and not trying to kill anyone or take over america- that puts you in the minority by far

here are the latest terror attacks

Latest Offerings from the Religion of Peace www.religionofpeace.com

1/3/2008 (Nimroz, Afghanistan) - A Fedayeen suicide bomber detonates in the middle of road construction crew, killing seven workers and their guards.
1/2/2008 (Kurram, Pakistan) - Eleven people are killed in a sectarian clash between Sunni and Shia.
1/2/2008 (Baqubah, Iraq) - A female suicide bomber sends ten Iraqis to Allah.
1/2/2008 (Helmand, Afghanistan) - Taliban militants shoot a local soldier to death.
1/2/2008 (Kandahar, Afghanistan) - Two border guards are murdered by Islamic extremists.
1/2/2008 (Muqdadiyah, Iraq) - Sunni radicals gun down six civilians in a drive-by attack.

You can try and parse words , but the sayings are CLEARLY interpreted by the terrorists to do their bidding. they are TOTALLY SURE of what they are doing

You can try and say all the scholarly sites I quote are "biased" and what not , but intelligent people will know better

If you are a nice muslim and dont want Sharia and the Caliphate and to take over america,- good for you !

that puts you in the distinct minority however.

the Salafists rule your religion

What Is Fundamentalist Islam?

The Arabic religious term for fundamentalist, is salaf. Salafi (Arabic for Ancestor) Islam (Arabic for Submission) is the religion of Muhammad (Islam's lone prophet and Allah's singular voice). It is the Islam recorded in the Qur'an (Recital from ar-Rahman and Allah), in the Hadith (Oral Reports from the Salaf/Ancestors regarding Muhammad), the Sira (Biography of Muhammad as told by the prophet's Companions), and Ta'rikh (History of Islam's Formation as recorded in the earliest Hadith). Salafi Islam is indistinguishable from Islamic Sunnah (Arabic for the Example of Muhammad - the basis the Islamic religion, law, custom, behavior, and culture).

Salafi Islam provides the entire basis for the Islamic religion and for Sharia Law - collectively the most repressive, unproductive, and anti-democratic system on earth. Salafi Islam provides the basis for all of Islam's Five Pillars and for its mindless ritual. The Salaf were the sole conduits of information regarding Muhammad and his God Allah. There is no Islam without the Salaf/Ancestors.

Based upon polling data from Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Lebanon, and the recent Palestinian elections, sixty to seventy percent of Muslims worldwide are Salafists. That means that fundamentalist Islam, the Islam of virtually all terrorists, is not a fringe movement. The 9/11 suicide bombers were Salafi Muslims as are 95% of the world's terrorists and 99.99% of Islamic terrorists.
Salafi Islam is the purest form of the religion. It is based entirely upon the oldest and most authentic Islamic sources. That makes it is the antithesis of a corruption of the religion. Salafist Muslims surrender to Allah's, Muhammad's, and the Qur'an's authority so they are the antithesis of insurgents (meaning those who rebel against authority). While Salafist Muslims highjacked airplanes and turned them into weapons of mass destruction, the terrorists have not highjacked their religion.

Until you come to understand what the five oldest Islamic sources reveal about Muhammad, Allah, and Islam (those being the Qur'an, Ishaq's Sira, Tabari's Ta'rikh, and Bukhari's and Muslim's Hadith Collections) you have no chance whatsoever of understanding Islamic terrorism or how to combat it. In fact, like the president of the United States, if you speak out or lash out without first coming to understand Salafi Islam, you will do far more harm than good.

Things that offend muslims and cause them to KILL

The intent of the list is to illustrate the futility of the multicultural approach to Islam. Sharia law demands submission not only from Muslims, but from non-Muslims as well. This makes respectful coexistence nearly impossible with Muslims in Infidel lands. The examples below serve as reminder that submitting to one complaint or another only emboldens Muslims to seek to further their ultimate goal of establishing sharia.

The West needs to come to grips with this fact and start standing up for our God-given rights of free speech, free expression and freedom of religion, lest we surrender those rights to a theocratic movement bent on removing our Constitutional freedoms that we hold dear. In this case, our tolerance will lead to intolerance.

http://www.islam-watch.org...

You can live in peace here in the US, you would have no such freedom in a muslim nation

You try and dissemble but the evidence is clear

Watch the news

Watch men murderiong their daughters for wearing western clothes, or converting to Christianity

A British imam's daughter is living in fear of her life under police protection after she received death threats from her family for converting to Christianity.

The young woman, aged 32, whose father is a Muslim imam in the north of England, has moved house 45 times to escape detection by her family since she became a Christian 15 years ago.

Hannah, who uses a pseudonym to hide her identity, told The Times how she became a Christian after she ran away from home at 16 to escape an arranged marriage.

The threats against her became more serious a month ago, prompting police to offer her protection in case of an attempt on her life.

She was speaking on the eve of the launch of a new charity in London today to promote greater religious awareness. Muslims in Britain who wish to convert to Christianity are living in fear of their lives because of Islamic apostasy laws, a senior Church of England bishop will warn at the invitaton-only launch in west London.

The Bishop of Rochester, Dr Michael Nazir-Ali, will claim "freedom to believe" is under threat in Britain because of Islamic hostility to conversion.

Hannah, now employed in multi-faith youth work and who gives talks to churches on Islam, is the daughter of a Lancashire imam whose seven other children are demanding she return to Islam. She has been in hiding,

since her home was attacked by a group of men armed with knives, axes and hammers, in 1994. She will describe today how she is in fear of her life after the death threats against her were recently renewed.

And to show your level of DANGEROUS THOUGHT I will quote YOU

Why would any Muslim want to disrespect the Prophet by raising his voice over his? Why would a Muslim shout at the Prophet? Respect toward the Prophet is required.

NO ITS NOT! HE WAS A SCUMBAG MURDERER TERRORIST FROM HELL

Nothing wrong with cursing those who malign God and Muhammad. Why would any Muslim do that? Why would any Christian do that to Jesus or God?

you believe what you want- I certainly dont have to

some questions for you

do you want Sharia?

do you want a Caliphate?

should all submit to Islam ?

If you answer "no" then you are not a real muslim

and the real ones will kill you quick

your final point

You have yet to prove anything, Solarman. You are being defeated through your constant plagiarism, horrible translations, and false reasoning.

I am crushing your argument

ISLAM IS EVIL AND A THREAT TO THE WORLD

I AM NOT MESSESD UP, THE SCHOLARLY PEOPLE I QUOTE WHO EXPOSE THE LIES THAT ARE ISLAM ARE CORRECT AND IRREFUTABLE

ISLAMISTS MURDERED OVER 1000000 PEOPLE LAST YEAR IN COLD BLOOD

ISLAMISTS ARE TRYING TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD VIOLENTLY AND IMPOSE SHARIA

ISLAMISTS MURDERED BHUTTO THE OTHER DAY

you apologists cant run and hide and dissemble forever

we are on to you !

AMERICA WILL NEVER EVER EVER TOLERATE ISLAM WHEN IT IS EXPOSED

SOLARMAN
Debate Round No. 3
47 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Mbalamwezi 6 years ago
Mbalamwezi
Solarman wrote: "THE SCHOLARLY PEOPLE I QUOTE"

Bah hah hah hah hah! You mean...

"THE RACIST CRAIG WINN I LOVE TO QUOTE SO MUCH"

You wouldn't know a scholar if he bit you in the gluteus maximus! And what's this garbabe...

"ISLAMISTS MURDERED OVER 1000000 PEOPLE LAST YEAR"

That's a million! I guess you'd better count them up now, if you're really going to make that claim. That is far, far from the truth, despite how much you hate Muslims.

If you want big numbers of deaths (millions upon millions upon millions), you're not going to find them committed by Muslims. They've already been committed by Christians! Too late!

Go do your homework, zbil-monger!
Posted by Harlan 6 years ago
Harlan
Solarman, reading you're arguments is hillarious.

Lighten up, man.

And really answer me: Have you ever held a quran in you're hands in you're entire life?
Posted by beem0r 6 years ago
beem0r
>>...in the great free nations like this USA, where we will NOT TOLERATE...<<
Humorous, to say the least.
Also, the majority of Muslims aren't terrorists. It would be like saying that black people are bad because they steal stuff all the time. Which frankly, I wouldn't put past you, Solarman.
Posted by Solarman1969 6 years ago
Solarman1969
gee ! another Child expert on debate.org

wow! what a shocker!
Posted by Solarman1969 6 years ago
Solarman1969
I find it hillarious that you terrorist apologists, and thats plain and simple what you are simply try and paint ME as a "plagarist" and my scholarly sites as "right wing" as if what I and we are saying about the DEATH CULT ISLAM is not completely accurate

You all can fool the kids on this site with your BS rhetoric and attempts at obfuscation, but the bottom line is as the murderous suicidal insanity of Islam continues to be on display EVERY DAY, smart people like me are waking up and taking on you JIHADISTS

here is todays fare from www.religionofpeace.com

Latest Offerings from the Religion of Peace

1/5/2008 (Muqdadiyah, Iraq) - Jihadis bomb a minibus, killing six civilians.
1/4/2008 (Kurram, Pakistan) - Fighting between Sunni and Shia leaves three people dead.
1/4/2008 (Yala, Thailand) - A 43-year-old villager is shot to death by Muslim militants.
1/3/2008 (Shopian, India) - The Mujahideen abduct and execute a civilian.
1/3/2008 (Kurram, Pakistan) - Six people are killed in violence between Sunni and Shia.
1/3/2008 (Yala, Thailand) - A 44-year-old Buddhist rubber tapper is murdered by Muslim extremists.

Get ready to kiss your little 'religion" goodbye in the grerat free nations like this USA, where we will NOT TOLERATE SCUM MURDEROUS THUG INSURRECTIONISTS

you can TAKE IT SOMEWHERE ELSE, like back to one of your ISLAMIC HELL_HOLES
Posted by mjvoss 6 years ago
mjvoss
Thank you, Muhafidh, for that enlightening analysis. It was actually a surprise to me how much was really plagiarized by Solarman.

Also, yes, it is easy to identify mainly because he starts to use punctuation. Solarman, if you want to plagiarize effectively, first you must enhance your own grammatical skills. Since you cannot see the truth of religious freedom, then I would doubt you could see the truth in grammatical correctness. Alternatively, you could go through your plagiarized text and apply your own grammatical flaws to it.
Posted by Harlan 6 years ago
Harlan
"and the real ones will kill you quick"

How much would you bet on that solarman? I severely doubt that if mjvoss said "NO I don't" to those questions, muslims would hunt him down and kill him.

It is easy to detect when it is not solarman's actuall words...its when it is no longer a bunch of all caps halting, jumbled, hatefull sentances, that stand alone in no organization.

Solarman, all I see in you're arguments is ignorant hate.

It is quite obvious to me that the websites that you get that stuff from is one of the ONLY things you know about Islam.

I am sorry, but I just doubt you have any real experience or knowledge of it.
Posted by Muhafidh 6 years ago
Muhafidh
Congratulations, Mjvoss! You've induced Solarman to move in a positive direction! It's a Festivus miracle! Here is the evidence, using standard plagiarism detection software:

Solarman's 1st retort: 93% plagiarized.
Solarman's 2nd retort: 76% plagiarized.
Solarman's 3rd retort: 30% plagiarized.

Yes! It's a miracle! Solarman's last retort was *only* 30% plagiarized! (This consisted of one continuous chunk of text copied and pasted from prophetofdoom.net.) That's got to be a world record for Solarman!

Unfortunately, we still give our students F's if they come out over 20% plagiarized, after accounting for quotes, and less than desirable grades for lower numbers if they are still significant. Consequently, Solarman would still fail. Nevertheless, he's now a better man, relatively speaking, for his exposure to your model of academic professionalism.

By comparison, yes, just to be fair, I've also subjected your own opinions from this debate into the mixer, and here was the result:

Mjvoss's 1st opinion: 0% plagiarized.
Mjvoss's 2nd opinion: 0% plagiarized.
Mjvoss's 3rd opinion: 0% plagiarized.

That must reflect Emory University's high standards. Most people accidentally plagiarize a tiny bit, which is why we apply some judgment to small amounts. Of course, you know that if Solarman posted only 7% original material the first time, 24% the second time, and 70% the third time, while you have posted 100% original material all three times, you have done a lot more work than he has. Solarman's habit of cutting and pasting giant chunks of material and launching them at his opponents in debate is a mark of kooks, who do exactly the same thing.

Thus, even though Solarman posted a total of 4,017 words, his actual work consisted of only 1,325 words, mostly mindless garbage, yelling, and taunting. Meanwhile, you posted 2,578 original words, all reflecting deep, careful thought.

You've done an outstanding job. A+ all the way!
Posted by PinkiePinkerton 6 years ago
PinkiePinkerton
Amin mjvoss. Evil things have been done throughout the history of the world in the name of religion and it's really sad.
Posted by upstreamedge 6 years ago
upstreamedge
Solarman was right in saying this was the easiest debate ever, he sucked.

Islam is the way it is today for complex reasons that involve a fair bit of getting conquered by step nomads. The Islamic world was ravaged by Mongolians and then later the Turks, these invasions destroyed the ancient irrigation systems and caused the climate to revert to desert.

Before these invasions, and for a period after them the Islamic world was the most just, advanced, and tolerant society in the world. Most Muslims abhore killing, and that of innocents in particular. Solarman, I don't know how you got so misinformed but it is truly something to see.
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