The Instigator
JLeff007
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
BassistBriar
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Tom Brady is the Greatest Quarterback of all time

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/8/2017 Category: Sports
Updated: 2 weeks ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 234 times Debate No: 104834
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (2)
Votes (0)

 

JLeff007

Pro

I strongly believe that Tom Brady is the Greatest Quarterback to ever play in the NFL
BassistBriar

Con

Unlike most football fans, I am willing to argue your viewpoint of Tom Brady being the greatest quarterback to ever play in the NFL. While Tom Brady is, by all means, a great quarterback, stating that he is the "greatest ever" is absurd. I would consider him ONE of the greatest quarterbacks of all time, but certainly not THE best quarterback of all time. Here's why I say that:

- You can take Brady out of the picture, and whoever becomes the starter still has success.
- Too many scandals attached to his name.

Let's go back to the 2008 season: Kansas City travels to Foxborough to take on the Pats. Bernard Pollard hits Brady in the leg, Brady goes down for the season. Patriots fans panic, and out comes Matt Cassel. Many fans were skeptical and were already removing New England from playoff-contender talk. Shockingly, Cassel goes 11-5 for the season. Granted they failed to make the playoffs, 11-5 is 11-5. Then you fast forward to the beginning of the 2016 season when Brady began to serve his four-game suspension, something we will talk about a little later. Without Brady, the Patriots went 3-1, and, if I'm not mistaken, that one loss came to Houston after both of the Patriots' backup quarterbacks went down. Either way you want to look at it, 3-1 is 3-1. The way I see it is this: With or without Brady, the Patriot's offense will still be explosive; they have shown that to us in the past. Am I saying shove a quarterback like Colt McCoy or Blaine Gabbert behind center and you have a Super Bowl team? No! But somebody like Blake Bortles? I could see him doing great as a Patriot thanks to the weapons he would have given to him. I'm sure we have all seen teams totally collapse after their star-QB goes down. Look at the Packers for instance: Rodgers goes down, they go down. Tom Brady is a system quarterback. Period.

Secondly, Tom Brady has a lot of dirt on his name. Sure, we can all agree that Brady will be in Canton, probably even first ballot, but when you mention his name, one can't help but recall all of the scandals he has had to face. Spygate, Deflategate, you name it. When you say the name "Tom Brady," you can talk about his five Super Bowls and you can talk about his stats, but the one thing that will always get brought up is that Tom Brady is and was a cheater. Now, do I personally believe he is a cheater? That's another debate, but I'll avoid that for this debate.

Overall, I'll say that Brady is ONE of the greatest quarterbacks of all time., not THE greatest. Sure, when you add up stats, one can make a claim that he is the greatest, but when you look at the bigger picture of things, his stock really does... deflate.
Debate Round No. 1
JLeff007

Pro

First of all I would like to thank BassistBriar for taking this debate it should be fun.

First I will be making 7 short and sweet points before I move on to countering my opponents points.

I -- Playoff sucess
Tom Brady holds a postseason record of 25-9. Five more wins than second place on the list, a guy you might know by the name of Joe Montana. The Patriots quarterback also holds the record for most touchdown passes in the playoffs (63) and in the Super Bowl (15). Not only does Brady have two NFL Most Valuable Player awards to his name ('07, '10), now he's been named a record holding fourth Super Bowl MVP.

II -- Rapport with his Coach
Over the years we have seen quarterbacks and coaches bicker and not get along leading to a not great environment, and losing seasons. But It's hard to argue against this coach-quarterback combo. Belichick and Brady have combined for the best coaching record all time at 202-63.

III -- CLUTCH
Quarterback's are often defined by how they play in crunch time with the game on the line and that's when Brady shines the most. He's engineered ten game-winning postseason drives including Super Bowl 51's 25-point comeback.

IV -- The Regular Season Stats don't lie
Sitting at 472 passing touchdowns Brady sits at 4th all time, and at 40 years old its looking like he isn't slowing down anytime soon.

V -- The AFC Easts Daddy
In the years that Brady was healthy he was 14 time AFC East champion, he also won 13 straight in years he was health 2003-2007 (2008 injured) 2009-Present.

VI -- 5 times
One thing that puts Brady above all other QB's is his strive to win it all and the 5 times he'd done it. Enough said?

VII -- Overlooked
Brady was drafted in the 6th round of the 2001 draft. 199th overall. This means that Brady was overlooked 198 times, before Brady was finally given a chance by the Patriots.

Rebuttal-- Now I will take sometime to refute my opponents arguments.
My opponent mentioned that "You can take Brady out of the picture, and whoever becomes the starter still has success." He used the 2008 season to back his point. Well done, you chose a season where the teams that the Patriots beat had a collective record of 71-105, the easiest schedule ever in the Brady Belichick Era! They only beat three teams that were over .500, the 9-7 Jets (who they also lost to once), the 9-7 Cardinals, and the 11-5 Dolphins (who they also lost to once). The 2008 patriots may have been 11-5 but they were a lot worse than that.
Secondly my opponent spoke of Brady's questionable record. While I agree that his reputation may be slightly tarnished, this doesn't make him a better or worse player. While many people will make claims such as "The Pats wouldn't have won in 2014 if Brady hadn't cheated, I have one word to say to you, really? If you look at that game you will know that the deflated footballs were removed at halftime, in the second half alone, the Pats won that game 28-0. So... yeah. While my opponent has made some valid points, there are easy way to as you said it deflate your arguments
P.S I appreciated the pun... it made me laugh thank you.

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org...
https://www.pro-football-reference.com...
https://www.pro-football-reference.com...
http://www.espn.com...
http://www.espn.com...
http://www.espn.com...
BassistBriar

Con

Before I build on my points from the previous round and possibly add more, I will counter my opponent's points:

I firmly believe that if we want to begin to claim an NFL quarterback as "the greatest of all time," we need to take into account BOTH the regular season AND the postseason to its full extent. With that being said:

1. Playoff Success:
Tom Brady does indeed hold the record for most postseason wins, I'll give you that. A fact is a fact. 63 touchdown passes in the postseason? Sure, I'll give you that as well, but, as I mentioned before, we need to take into account both the regular season AND the postseason, so my only counterargument to this point will come later on.

2. Rapport with his Coach:
The record you mention really comes down to how many years the QB decides to play. Tom Brady can play until he's 45 and we can say he holds all of these records because he's been around so long. Terry Bradshaw and Chuck Noll are the second best duo behind Brady and Belicheck, but also have way more time together than Bradshaw/Noll.

3. CLUTCH:
While Brady has ten game-winning postseason drives, Peyton Manning has 56 game-winning drives overall, while Brady has 51. If we wanted to add in fourth-quarter comebacks, Manning has 45 and Brady has 40.

4. The Regular Season Stats Don't Lie:
Number one on the all-time list for passing touchdowns is Peyton Manning with 539. When he retired, he was one month away from turning 40. Tom Brady, who is still kicking it at 40, is only 67 touchdowns away from tieing Manning, 68 away from gaining that record. If we're basing this point solely on the regular season, let's look at some other regular season records:

MOST PASSING YARDS (In A Season)
1. Peyton Manning (5,477 yards).
3. Tom Brady (5,235 yards).

MOST PASSING TOUCHDOWNS (In A Season)
1. Peyton Manning (55)
2. Tom Brady (50)

BEST PASSER RATING (In A Season)
1. Aaron Rodgers (122.5)
3. Nick Foles (119.2)
4. Tom Brady (117.2)

Now, let's move from season records to a season-by-season breakdown:

LEAGUE LEADER IN PASSING YARDS:
2016:
1. Drew Brees
20. Tom Brady

2015:
1. Drew Brees
3. Tom Brady

2014:
1. Ben Roethlisberger
10. Tom Brady

2013:
1. Peyton Manning
6. Tom Brady

2012:
1. Drew Brees
4. Tom Brady

2011:
1. Drew Brees
2. Tom Brady

2010:
1. Phillip Rivers
8. Tom Brady

2009:
1. Matt Schaub
5. Tom Brady

2008: Injured

2007:
1. Tom Brady
2. Drew Brees

2006:
1. Drew Brees
7. Tom Brady

2005:
1. Tom Brady

2004:
1. Daunte Culpepper
10. Tom Brady

2003:
1. Peyton Manning
6. Tom Brady

2002:
1. Rich Gannon
6. Tom Brady

2001: Did not start the full season.

16 total seasons, 14 if you take out the two where he did not play the full season. Out of those fourteen seasons, Brady was only the league's best passer twice. Drew Brees beat Brady most of those times.

So, if we're going to say that the regular season stats do not lie, you're right: they do not. There are other QBs who do better each season than Tom Brady, as my stats show.

5. The AFC East's Daddy:
The AFC East in the last few years has been ranked as one of the weakest divisions. They were ranked 6 of 8 in 2016, for instance. They are the only good team in that division if history has anything to say about it. However, that's the Patriots as a whole. I've already singled out Tom Brady season-by-season and how he performed.

6. 5 Times:
While Tom Brady has five Super Bowl wins, are we forgetting that Bart Starr also has five? (1961, 1962, 1965, 1966, 1967).

7. Overlooked:
This is one of the arguments that always seems to be thrown around: Brady is the best player to ever be overlooked. While I'll agree that Brady will be a HOF'er, let's take a look at other players who went UNDRAFTED and became HOF'ers:
Warren Moon
John Randle
Larry Little
Willie Brown
These players were overlooked to the point where NOBODY drafted them. Look how they turned out.

Now I will take this time to improve my points:
1. Was I wrong, though? Brady went down, Cassel stepped in, led the team to an 11-5 record. Whether they had the easiest schedule or not, they had a backup QB in the whole season, and he did rather well! You didn't mention anything about the 2016 season where he was out for four games and the backups went 3-1, but I won't hold that against you; after all, it wasn't a full season. You are, however, agreeing with me that, if the 2008 season was any proof, you can plug in almost any QB into that system and the team will still win.

2. A bad rep is a bad rep. Does that make him a bad player? It depends on how you want to look at it. Some fans will say that Brady should have never won this Super Bowl or that Super Bowl because he "cheated." I should have clarified my standpoint in the previous round, but I do not believe Brady to be a full-blown cheater. As you said, they removed the deflated balls. For most of the fans, though, they will see Brady as a cheater. They will see him as the guy who cheated his way to the top.

Sources:
https://www.pro-football-reference.com...
https://www.pro-football-reference.com...
https://www.si.com...
https://en.wikipedia.org...
http://es.redskins.com...
http://www.espn.com...
http://www.espn.com...
Debate Round No. 2
JLeff007

Pro

As this will be the final round of the debate, I will respond to my opponents points, then add a point of my own, and finally wrap up what my argument is in a nutshell.

I -- Playoff Success:
Since my opponent opposed my points in a later section I will do the same.

II -- Rapport with his Coach:
My opponent mentioned that Brady and Belicheck's record only stands because "he's been around so long." I agree with this point partially. Yes, Brady and Belicheck have been together longer than most coaches and Quarterbacks, but there is a very simple stat that can solve this battle within the war altogether... Winning Percentage. With Brady and Belicheck's record sitting at 202-63, that adds up to a .762 winning percentage. Now you mentioned Terry Bradshaw and Chuck Noll, their record together sits at a pretty impressive 127-59. Though impressive, that winning percentage sits at .682. Now I'm no mathematician, so correct me if I'm wrong, but last I checked .762 is better than .682. Sorry to burst your bubble.

III -- CLUTCH
Lets look at the stats that you mentioned. Manning has 56 game-winning drives overall and Brady has 51. Now I'm going to refute this point by bringing in another sport basketball. If player A shoots the ball 300 times and makes it 195 times, while player B shoots the ball 160 times and makes it 130 times does that mean that Player A is better? No it just means player A has had more opportunities. This is exactly what is going on in our argument. Manning played in 266 games before he retired, while Brady has played in 245. That is 21 more games, hence 21 more opportunities.

IV -- The Regular Season Stats don't lie:
This argument in a way directly correlates to the last one, and also helped remind me of another argument that I will expand upon later. My opponent mentioned how Manning has 539 touchdowns being just short of 40 years old. But does age matter here. The answer... no, what matters here again is games. Brady has 21 more opportunities to get those 67 more touchdowns, in order to do that he would just need to average slightly over 3 touchdowns per game for the next 21 games, which may I point out is extremely plausible. My opponent then went on to mention stats from multiple single years. I did notice that my opponent A. didn't mention this year which Brady is currently the league leader in yards, or B. that while Brady was in 20th last year had he played those 4 games for which he was suspended, he was projected to have more than Brees. Also you have talked so much about Manning yet he is only on the list twice... hmmm. Also, I noticed that you only mentioned passing yards in a year by year basis, lets look at for example, touchdowns

LEAGUE LEADER IN PASSING Touchdowns:
2016: Did not start full season

2015:
1. Tom Brady

2014:
1. Andrew Luck
6. Tom Brady

2013:
1. Peyton Manning
11. Tom Brady

2012:
1. Drew Brees
4. Tom Brady

2011:
1. Drew Brees
2. Tom Brady

2010:
1. Tom Brady

2009:
1. Drew Brees
3. Tom Brady

2008: Injured

2007:
1. Tom Brady (50)
2. Tony Romo (36)

2006:
1. Peyton Manning
4. Tom Brady

2005:
1. Carson Palmer
2. Tom Brady

2004:
1. Peyton Manning
3. Tom Brady

2003:
1. Brett Farve
10. Tom Brady

2002:
1. Tom Brady

2001: Did not start the full season.

16 total season, 13 if you take out the three where he did not play the full season. Out of those thirteen seasons, Brady was the league leader in touchdowns 4 times. More than anyone else during that span. So if we're going to say regular season stats don't lie you're right they don't. There aren't any other QBs who find the end zone more often then Tom Brady in a given season. As my Stats show.

V -- The AFC East's Daddy:

I took the liberty of looking at the patriots out of division records over the years and comparing them to other division winners, lets take a look.

2016
1. Cowboys 10-0
2. Patriots 9-1

2015
1. Panthers 10-0
T3. Patriots 8-2

2014
T1. Patriots 8-2
T1. Cardinals 8-2

2013
1. Seahawks 9-1
T2. Patriots 8-2

2012
1. Falcons 10-0
T4. Patriots 6-4

2011
1. Packers (9-1)
2. Patriots (8-2)

2010
1. Patriots (9-1)

2009
1. Saints
T8. Patriots

2008
Brady Injured

2007
1. Patriots (10-0)

2006
T1. Colts (9-1)
T1. Patriots (9-1)

2005
1. Steelers (9-1)
T6. Patriots (6-4)

2004
1.Patriots (9-1)

2003
1. Patriots (9-1)

2002
1. Eagles (8-2)
T5. Patriots (5-5)

2001
Brady didn't play full season.

Based on these stats this shows that Tom Brady helps his team win regardless of his opponents. In 13 full years Brady led to Patriots to six 1st place finishes in WLOD (Win-Loss out of Division) and three second place finishes. Sure they may have an easy division but remember 10 games are played out of division, and Brady finds a way to win those too.

VI -- 5 Times:
Yes Bart Star also has 5 Super bowl championships but in 4 of those years the playoffs weren't what they are today, it was just one game between the two best teams. A little easier no? In Starr's 5 Super bowl the payoffs were expanded yes, but they were simply expanded to just 4 teams. It was a lot easier to win it all then it is now. I think Brady's 5 are more earned then Starr's.

VII -- Overlooked
While you named some players that I have a lot of respect for and a really good, are any of them Tom Brady good? Are any of them in consideration for being the greatest ever at their respective positions? I'm sure you'll have some answers and I'm excited to hear them, because none of these players are close to the level that Tom Brady is at today.

Now I will add a new point. Sorry it's so late!!

VIII -- Health
In argument #4 my opponent wrote this "Number one on the all-time list for passing touchdowns is Peyton Manning with 539. When he retired, he was one month away from turning 40." So is him having neck issues and not being able to stay healthy through out his career a positive, hmm good to know. Now Tom Brady is 40 plus a few months old and in pristine shape, his only major injury being his ACL tear in '08. Now if Peyton had been healthy he very well may have had a better career, and we may have been having an argument about him being the G.O.A.T. But we're not. Why? Because he didn't stay healthy, but Brady did. This is a point you can't overlook.

In a Nut Shell --
Tom Brady is the Greatest QB to ever play in the NFL for many reasons. First of all he has had incredible amounts of success in the playoffs and regular season, more than most other QB's. He has won over and over again with the same coach, leading to the best Player & Coach winning percentage in history. He is incredibly clutch, leading 51 game winning drives and counting. He has helped the Patriots become an empire in the AFC East that has been almost completely uncontested. He is a 5 time Super bowl champ and 4 time Super bowl MVP. He was overlooked 198 times before giving a chance, and finally he is 40 in pristine shape, and doesn't look to be slowing down at all.

To end I would like to Thank my opponent for taking my debate, it helped me grasp the opposing side of things so I can be more two sided. To the voters thank you for reading, and voting. Good Luck.
BassistBriar

Con

This has been a great debate in my eyes, as I hope it has been for my opponent. To wrap things up for my side, I will respond to my opponent's points and paraphrase my side of the debate!

1 - Playoff Success:
We both have agreed to look past this point until a later time in the debate.

2 - Rapport with his Coach:
Something I believe we have both failed to mention is that the season at one point did not consist of 16 games. The 1980 season marked the first year the NFL began playing on their new schedule format. Bradshaw played fourteen seasons in the NFL (I'll address a counterpoint later on it your health argument). From 1970-1979, Bradshaw played fourteen game seasons. From 1979-1982, Bradshaw played sixteen game seasons. In 1982, the NFL had its player's strike, so the sixteen game season was reduced to nine games, so Bradshaw played seven less games than he would have normally played. Finally, in 1983, Bradshaw played sixteen games. If we were to compare the schedule from the '70s to now, Bradshaw would have played 25 less games than he would have if he played in the modern era.

3 - CLUTCH:
Before I go any further, let me clear the waters: I failed to include this season because I was looking at COMPLETED seasons. If Brady went down this Sunday (which, of course, I hope doesn't happen [nobody should wish injury upon a player]), then more than likely, he would be surpassed on the leaderboard, hence why I did not include the 2001 season (Brady did not play all games). Technically speaking, I will apologize for adding the 2016 season into play since he did not play four of the sixteen games. If we are mentioning more opportunities, I would go on to argue that comebacks definitely define a QB's character. It shows that he can work well under pressure. Did Brady have to worry about many comebacks? Not really, but that is because of his team, all around, was a great team, especially the year they went 19-1! Peryton Manning had to work TWICE as hard as Brady did, so I believe this argument point goes my way because it shows that Brady did not have to work as hard as other QBs have to get where they are now in history.

4 - The Regular Season Stats Don't Lie:
Now, as far as bringing up Peyton Manning a lot, I do not mean anything by it. Simply, I am just listing other quarterbacks who could be considered GOATs. If we want to discuss more opportunities, please refer to my previous point about Bradshaw. If he would have been able to play more games, perhaps his numbers would be higher. Since Peyton Manning seems to be popular in this debate, let's say he never had neck surgery. If he would have played, I'm sure the Colts would have continued to be dominant. Of course, that is a "what if" statement, but it is a HUGE what if.

4 - The Regular Season Stats Don't Lie:
Please forgive me for any confusion that has set it. The reason why I have decided not to include the current season is that I was looking at COMPLETED seasons. More specifically, seasons Brady played FULLY. That is why I failed to add the 2001 season. However, I will apologize for bringing the 2016 season into the discussion since Brady did not play four of the sixteen games. My apologies.

Now, it's a great thing that you bring up the league's leading passers in touchdowns season-by-season. I actually looked into adding this stat to the previous round of this debate, but felt I should not add on to proving my point that Brady is not the GOAT. As you broke down, Brady led the league in passing touchdowns four times out of thirteen full seasons that he played. That is saying that in nine other seasons, there was a better QB than Brady himself. If stats do not lie, then we could say that there are multiple QBs who could be considered better than Brady in each season except those that he led in.

5 - The AFC East's Daddy:
Sticking with my standpoint from the previous round, I still am a firm believer that if we're going to talk about the division and team performance, we should consider that as a team effort rather than just Brady. I will agree that Brady has single-handedly has won games for the team, but for the majority of his career, he has been surrounded by great talents on both offense and defense, and even on special teams, hence why they are as dominant as they are.

6 - 5 Times:
I won't lie and say the Patriots are a bad team. I would be lying if I did say that! Their first-round byes every season are a good indication of that. However, let's figure how many first-round bye's the Pats have had over the years. The Pats would play three games if they made it to the Super Bowl and won, so saying Brady's championships are more earned than Starr's could be seen as disrespectful to Bart Starr and Green Bay fans. Wouldn't you agree that Brady's championships could be viewed as "not deserved" due to the tarnished reputation he now has due to the scandals?

7 - Overlooked:
Going into detail about the player's careers that I have listed in the previous round is practically meaningless. It serves no part of this debate. The reason for me bringing them up in the first place was to show that several other stars have been overlooked, some even to the point of being undrafted, and have become HOF'ers. Brady is far from the only one who has been overlooked.

No worries about adding another point!

8 - Health:
Injuries happen every game. Some could set a player out a few weeks, others could be season-ending or even career-ending. Sadly for Manning, his neck injury would prove to be a career-ending injury. Could he have played on after Super Bowl 50? I guarantee it! The only reason why he did not want to play anymore was that he did not want to risk injury anymore. Can you blame him? Of course not! Looking back to my point mentioning Chuck Noll and Terry Bradshaw, I'm sure Bradshaw could have played many more seasons if the rules then were like they are now. It's no secret that the rules now protect the QB perhaps a tad bit too much. Back then, you could hit a QB and get away with it. Of course, doing that caused a lot more injuries to your QB. So Brady is playing in an era where if you even just lay a finger on him, you'll be flagged and fined. If you want my honest opinion, this argument point is pointless. It is literally like saying, "Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback of all time because he has been the healthiest quarterback ever!" Seems silly, don't you think?

WRAP UP:
To wrap up my side of this debate, I believe strongly that Brady is not the greatest QB to ever play in the NFL. I do, however, believe he is ONE of the greatest to play the position, but to say he is THE greatest is absurd for several reasons: 1) It has been proven in two seasons (2008, 2016) that without Brady, the system continues to roll on with victories. My opponent even acknowledged this fact in the second round of this debate and failed to debate it further in round three. 2) Tom Brady has been called a cheater several times throughout his career, so his legacy could be viewed as tarnished. Did he deserve some of those championships? Did he not deserve them? That is left up to the fans. 3) My opponent has opened many holes in his case. A) In his third point, "CLUTCH," my opponent says that Tom Brady had fewer fourth-quarter comebacks because he did not have as many opportunities as Peyton Manning and the Colts had. As I stated to support my case, comebacks show that a quarterback can be cool under pressure, and it also shows that Manning worked harder than Brady to get those victories. This also adds on to my point that a lot of Brady's success comes from his team as a WHOLE, NOT INDIVIDUALLY! (Please see Argument Point 5 - "The AFC East's Daddy"). Obviously, if the team does great all around, the amount of fourth-quarter comebacks will be less. B) In his fourth point, "The Regular Season Stats Don't Lie," he proved through his stat of the passing touchdown leaders season-by-season that, on more than one occasion, there were MULTIPLE quarterbacks who could be seen as better than Brady. Not only did his own stat prove my point, but he also practically agreed that my stat I presented in the previous round was true! And I quote, "So if we're going to say regular season stats don't lie you're right they don't." 4) I have "deflated" all of his points through nothing more than pure stats and facts. As we have both said multiple times, stats do not lie. It is because of these reasons and sub-reasons that I believe you, the voter, should vote for the CON to win this debate.

Thank you for the fun debate topic! It certainly has been great! Also, thank you to the voters and readers! Good luck to you as well, fellow football fan!
Debate Round No. 3
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Nd2400 2 weeks ago
Nd2400
Hey, Just to let you two knows, this was a very good debate on this. Good back and forth. I probably won't be voting, because it could go either way. I must admit when i first commented on this debate i didn't think it would be a good one. But i was wrong... Just one thing for the (Con) side you should have mentioned who was on top of Brady for the Greatest QB of all time.
But never the less great debate form the both of you....
Posted by Nd2400 2 weeks ago
Nd2400
Unfortunately yes he is... it really no debating it after last year comeback SuperBowl win....
No votes have been placed for this debate.