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MyNameIsJustin
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The Contender
RonPaulConservative
Con (against)
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Topic: The Quran is Misinterpreted and Does Not Promote Modern Violence

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/18/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 551 times Debate No: 99066
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
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MyNameIsJustin

Pro

Topic: The Quran is Misinterpreted and Does Not Promote Modern Violence

Definitions:

Quran: the Islamic sacred book, believed to be the word of God as dictated to Muhammad by the archangel Gabriel and written down in Arabic.

Misinterpreted: interpret (something or someone) wrongly.

Modern: relating to the present or recent times as opposed to the remote past.

Violence: behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.

Round 1: Acceptance only
Round 2: Opening arguments (no rebuttals)
Round 3: Rebuttals/Counter arguments
Round 4: Rebuttals and conclusion (no new arguments)
RonPaulConservative

Con

Looking for something to do on debte.org, I checked the "challenge period," and lo, I found an educated buffoon starting a debate with the resolution tht the Qur'an doesn't promote violence. What an absurd resolution! Tjis is ike sayiing that the Talmud doesn't promote pedophilia- who could believe such an absurd assertion. Thus, I accepted this debate, as to add another to my won debates. If someone starts a debate claiming that the sky is red, how could he win?
Debate Round No. 1
MyNameIsJustin

Pro

The Quran Promotes Good Over Evil:

"Indeed, Allah enjoins justice, and the doing of good to others; and giving like kindred; and forbids indecency, and manifest evil, and wrongful transgression. He admonished you that you may take heed." (Al Quran 16:91)

"The reward of goodness is nothing but goodness." (Al Quran 55:61)

"And good and evil are not alike. Repel evil with that which is best. And lo, he between whom and thyself was enmity will become as though he were a warm friend. But none is granted it save those who are steadfast; and none is granted it save those who possess a large share of good." (Al Quran 41:35-36)

These are some of the hundreds of verses in the Quran promoting peace and good actions.

Many Violent Verses are Misinterpreted:
I will be focusing on the most popular misinterpreted verses from the second sura.

"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Haram (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers." (Al Quran 2:191)

If we take a look at verses 2:190-2:195, we can clearly see the context. In the following the translators have changed the Arabic word Fitna from its false translation. It is translated to disbelievers, but it actually means corruption, persecution, etc.

2:190 Fight in the way of God those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. God does not like transgressors.
2:191 And kill them wherever you find them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and Persecution is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
2:192 And if they cease, then indeed, God is Forgiving and Merciful.
2:193 Fight them until there is no [more] Persecution and [until] worship is for God. But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.
2:194 [Fighting in] the sacred month is for [aggression committed in] the sacred month, and for [all] violations is legal retribution. So whoever has assaulted you, then assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear God and know that God is with those who fear Him.
2:195 And spend in the way of God and do not throw [yourselves] with your [own] hands into destruction [by refraining]. And do good; indeed, God loves the doers of good.

The verses above were written while the Muslims were under attack but the Makkans. For example, the Makkans crucified a companion of Muhammad (pbuh). 2:191-2:192 is a great place to make example of keeping peace even in a time of war.

"2:191 And kill them wherever you find them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and Persecution is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
2:192 And if they cease, then indeed, God is Forgiving and Merciful."

2:191 states that you shall not fight the attackers until they fight you, but if they do you should defend yourself. 2:192 states that God will forgive you for your acts of defense.

I would love to see your argument. I hope we can have a fun debate on this. May peace be upon you brother!

http://theamericanmuslim.org...
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com...
RonPaulConservative

Con

That the Qur'an promotes violence would be subject to interpretation as one Muslim can point to an irrelevant verse that says "Allah" hates evil, leaving out the fact that Islam does not consider violence to be "evil," whilst another could point out 109 verses which clearly state that Muslims are to slaughter non-muslims, and the prior would say that it is "out of context" which is of course nonsense as the Qur'an is a collection of random, irrelevant passages that have nothing to do with eachother.

So how do we know if the Qur'an promotes volence or not? Well, first we have to understand that the Qur'an, like the holy books of every other religion, ws written by humans, or human. Thus the Qur'an is the word of Muhmmad, and thus the Qur'an being subject to interpretation is irrelevant, because only 1 interpretation matters- and that's Muhammad's.
Muhammad committed murders and genocides all over the Middle East, and thus, this is the correct interpretation f his Qur'an.

Now let's move on to the Unhoy Qur'an, Qur'an 9:5 says:
"So when the sacred months have passed away, then kill the unbelievers wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush."
"Lie in wait for them," pretty much demolishesthe common (absurd) claim that these violent verses in the Qur'an are refering to self defense.
Debate Round No. 2
MyNameIsJustin

Pro

Thank you for responding. I will make rebuttals to each of your points here.

"That the Qur'an promotes violence would be subject to interpretation as one Muslim can point to an irrelevant verse that says "Allah" hates evil, leaving out the fact that Islam does not consider violence to be "evil,""

Before we started this debate I made it very clear. The topic is that the Quran does not promote modern violence, which it does not. I made the definition of violence very clear as well.

"whilst another could point out 109 verses which clearly state that Muslims are to slaughter non-Muslims, and the prior would say that it is "out of context" which is of course nonsense as the Qur'an is a collection of random, irrelevant passages that have nothing to do with each other." (I didn"t edit this one from its original form; I just corrected some spelling mistakes)
I never stated any of these verses were out of context, just misinterpreted. These verses were written in a time of war when Muhammad (pbuh) needed more Muslims to help in the war. The Quran is not a collection of random irrelevant passages that have nothing to do with each other. Each verse directly follows the one behind it as long as they are in the same surah. This is proven with my rebuttal about the verse you listed.

"So how do we know if the Qur'an promotes violence or not? Well, first we have to understand that the Qur'an, like the holy books of every other religion, was written by humans, or human. Thus the Qur'an is the word of Muhammad, and thus the Qur'an being subject to interpretation is irrelevant, because only 1 interpretation matters- and that's Muhammad's.
Muhammad committed murders and genocides all over the Middle East, and thus, this is the correct interpretation f his Qur'an." (I didn"t edit this one from its original form; I just corrected some spelling mistakes)

Unfortunately Muhammad is not living on Earth anymore. We cannot seek his interpretation, but with historical evidence on their situation, we are using the interpretations that clearly make the most sense. These "murders and genocides" have absolutely no evidence to back them up. Muhammad made murder forbidden in the book he wrote. Your correct interpretation of the Quran does not agree with the thousands of scholars who studied this book cover to cover.

"Now let's move on to the Unholy Qur'an, Qur'an 9:5 says:
"So when the sacred months have passed away, then kill the unbelievers wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush."
"Lie in wait for them," pretty much demolishes the common (absurd) claim that these violent verses in the Qur'an are referring to self-defense." (I didn"t edit this one from its original form; I just corrected some spelling mistakes)

I have absolutely no idea where you found this translation. I looked up multiple English translations of this verse and didn"t find anything close. I didn"t even find it on my own Quran app. I will be taking the following translation to 9:5 from www.quran.com.

"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

This verse is written at a time when the Pagans were making hostilities towards the Muslims, and Muhammad needed more Muslims to join the ranks if the Pagans did not cease to attack. It says that if the Pagans repent, pray, and give charity (zakah), to let them go and Allah will forgive them for their hostilities. The following quote is from theamericanmuslim.org which I think is a great point.

"This verse is quoted during a battle. ...We know that America was once at war with Vietnam. Suppose the President of America or the General of the American Army told the American soldiers during the war: "Wherever you find the Vietnamese, kill them". Today if I say that the American President said, "Wherever you find Vietnamese, kill them" without giving the context, I will make him sound like a butcher. But if I quote him in context, that he said it during a war, it will sound very logical, as he was trying to boost the morale of the American soldiers during the war."

Let"s also take a look at the verse following it. 9:6

"If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure that is because they are men without knowledge."

This verse is a great example of peace even in the time of war.

Thank you for the argument. I can"t wait to see yours. May peace be upon you and your family.
RonPaulConservative

Con

My referance to Qur'an 9:5 came from the Sakir translation, and this one is Sahih International, Qur'an 9:29:
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

The context of this verse is that Muhammad ordered that all non-Muslim areas, kingdoms, or cities should pay him dues for not being a part of his insane cult, and a number of them rebelled, so he ordered that they all be killed. Muhammad is a lot like Negan if you think about it, except Negan never advocated for FGM.
This verse promotes modern violence as a tenet of Islam is world domination, and no one is likely to pay money to a bunch of savages because their false book says so, and thus they are commanded to be violent against non-muslims.

Qur'an 9:123 has no context behind it whatsoever, you can read the surrounding verses, there is no context, Sahih International:
"O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous."
Debate Round No. 3
MyNameIsJustin

Pro

"My referance to Qur'an 9:5 came from the Sakir translation"

Sakir is not a translation. I am assuming you mean "Shakir". Even so, the Shakir translation does not follow. This is the Shakir translation:

"So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

And yours...

"So when the sacred months have passed away, then kill the unbelievers wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush."

Now the idolaters part refers to the Pagans who were at war with the Muslims. This verse is very reasonable during a time of war. You completely took out 23 words of the whole verse and changed several of them. I don"t think you should be taken as a credible debater if you are doing these things.

"Qur'an 9:29:
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

The following passage is quoted from theamericanmuslim.org .

"The above fatwa refers to the historical context in which the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) fought against other nations. The Prophet Muhammad did not initiate aggression against anyone, rather he and his followers were under attack from all who sought to crush the new Islamic state. The first hostilities between the Muslims and the Roman empire began when the Prophet Muhammad"s messenger to the Ghassan tribe (a governate of the Roman empire), Al-Harith bin Umayr Al-Azdi, was tied up and beheaded (Al-Mubarakpuri, Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum, p. 383). The killing of a diplomat was an open act of war, and the Prophet Muhammad sent an armed force to confront the tribe, but the Roman empire brought in reinforcements and the resulting conflict, known as the Battle of Mut"ah, was a defeat for the Muslims. Only after this did subsequent battles between the Muslims and the Roman Empire occur, and the Muslims emerged victorious. Likewise, as mentioned in the above fatwa, hostilities between the Muslims and the Persians only began after the Persian emperor Chosroe ordered his governor in Yemen Badham, to kill the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, although his efforts were thwarted when the latter accepted Islam. Other non-muslim groups, such as those in Madinah, also initiated hostilities against the Muslims despite peace treaties as Shaykh Sayyid Sabiq writes:

As for fighting the Jews (People of the Scripture), they had conducted a peace pact with the Messenger after he migrated to Madinah. Soon afterwards, they betrayed the peace pact and joined forces with the pagans and the hypocrites against Muslims. They also fought against Muslims during the Battle of A`hzab , then Allah revealed"[and he cites verse 9:29] (Sayyid Sabiq, Fiqhu as-Sunnah, Vol. 3, p. 80)"

Need I say more?

Qur'an 9:123 has no context behind it whatsoever, you can read the surrounding verses, there is no context, Sahih International:
"O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous."

The surrounding verses are in the same category, but do not follow much. Nonetheless, one example does not make the entire book jumbled passages that make no sense. That it simply false.

Conclusion:

Thank you for the debate. I hope we can do it again sometime. I hope that whoever votes on this debate will not vote with only their personal opinion, but which debater had the best arguments, grammar, skill, etc. Whether that is me or my opponent will be up to the voters. May peace be upon you.
RonPaulConservative

Con

My opponents defense of Qur'an 9:29 comes from an Islaimic website which has a clear bias and is attempting to rewrite history. Muhammad started every war he fought- those Jews did not betray him, he propagated the lie that they did so he could attack them when they didn't expect it.

My oppnent also provides no defense for Qur'an 9:123.
Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by ANonRepublican 1 year ago
ANonRepublican
It's not misinterpreted but still.....
Posted by ANonRepublican 1 year ago
ANonRepublican
RonPaul you said on my debates that Islam is a terrible religion, now u r against what he is saying??
Posted by Zbojnik 1 year ago
Zbojnik
Religion doesn't kill people, people kill people. Who wants to find justification for doing so will always manage to find one and religion just happens to be the easiest one to be picked.
While I do not think that all people who live by Quaran teachings are violent (at least not any more than other people) I do believe Quaran is in need of rewriting into a more coherent form. As a book that has been written over long period of time and used by many different people to promote their causes or views it includes passages that go against each other. There are passages that encourage killing of non believers http://www.thereligionofpeace.com... and passages that prohibit it (sort of) https://mbplee.wordpress.com... . These issues should be resolved.
Posted by canis 1 year ago
canis
Why not just "send any religion to hell"... = 0 / No illusions to Misinterpret / interpret via illusions.
Posted by Stupidape 1 year ago
Stupidape
Theism is illogical. The Quaran promotes violence.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 1 year ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Better review this debate;
Atheism- A lost reality! A hopeless, helpless cause!
Hell, Who will go there, and Why?
No votes have been placed for this debate.