The Instigator
Teash
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
knucklepuk
Con (against)
Winning
5 Points

Toronto Maple Leafs is the greatest NHL franchise

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/14/2011 Category: Sports
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,683 times Debate No: 16520
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
Votes (1)

 

Teash

Pro

Hey this is gonna be a fair debate, no cheap shots, no pain. If you understood the dynamics of what makes a successful franchise not only in the pockets of the owners but in the hearts of the players then you would understand the reality behind the scenes. I grew up being raised by a father who was a massive fan of the Toronto Maple Leafs. The team has more fans then any other NHL franchise, number one in television views. The team has been through the longest Stanly Cup drought in the NHL thus far, 42 seasons since the last championship.

You could say its hard for an NHL franchise to survive under the circumstances of continuous loss. The case to address is the continuous fan support and hope among veteran and minor league players. WIthout the passion behind such a franchise how could any other team become so dynamic in the sense of a few fans.
knucklepuk

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for this debate. I am not the biggest hockey fan but I am an avid sports fan in general so hopefully I can hold my own.

My opponents main contention seems to be that the Toronto Maple Leafs are the greatest NHL franchise because they have the greatest fans. "The team has more fans [then] any other NHL franchise...". This is false. If they had the most fans then wouldn't they have the highest ticket sales? I would think so, and I would also think that they would have a rather large fan contingency throughout all of the NHL cities, however, they have neither of these. They were fifth in average fans per home game, and there were 8 teams that sold as well, or better than them on the road this past season [1]. If they did in fact have the best fans, then the ticket sales on the road and at home would be higher. Not only this, but Forbes.com did a study on the best fan bases in the NHL and the Pittsburgh Penguins brought home first place, not the Maple Leafs fans [2].

All of that being said, it is irrelevant. The resolution is "Toronto Maple Leafs is the greatest NHL franchise", not that the Maple Leafs have the greatest fans. My opponent spent a lot of time talking about the fans, but fans don't make a franchise great. Winning does, and as my opponent has conceded the Maple Leafs don't do very much winning.

"The team has been through the longest Stanly Cup drought in the NHL thus far, 42 seasons since the last championship. You could say its hard for an NHL franchise to survive under the circumstances of continuous loss."

These two sentences alone are in direct clash with my opponents side of the resolution. Great teams don't have to suffer through continuous loss, much less 42 consecutive years worth of it. My opponent also mentioned the continuous hope among players, but this also clashes with the resolution. Mediocre teams may have hope when a season begins, but great teams have expectations. They expect to win, and if they don't then the season is considered a disappointment, but the Maple Leafs don't have any of these expectations because they know they are not going to win. All they have to cling to is hope, and look where that has gotten the team.

My opponent argued more for the fans than the actual team, which is not what the resolution requires him to do.

I urge a Con ballot. Thank you.

[1] http://espn.go.com...
[2] http://www.forbes.com...
Debate Round No. 1
Teash

Pro

Very good arguments from my opponent, to avoid bias opinions I must position facts among the reasons why the Maple Leafs are the greatest franchise.

1. As the NHL is 87 years old the original six teams are listed as followed;
- Montreal Canadians
- Toronto Maple Leafs
- New York Rangers
- Boston Bruins
- Detroit Redwings
- Chicago Blackhawks
Among all of these teams the Montreal Candians have won the most championships, if your argument is to state the current greatest franchise is the team that wins the most, then the Pittsburgh Penguins have only won three championships since the establishment of the franchise in 1967. If you were to base the greatest franchise upon who has won the most then Montreal would be number one with a massive 25 championships.
Although your Forbes reference is a great argument, the article states that Pittsburgh is only number one in merchandise sales, attendance rank is number 4, and TV viewership is number 6. As you continue the number two franchise on fordes list is the Toronto Maple Leafs with an attendance record of number three, and a TV viewships at number one among the entire league.

Although the Maple Leafs are lagging behind Pittsburgh in merchandise sales, they are still achieving greater fan support through television and attendance. If Toronto were a winning team they would sell more merchandise, if they sold more then Pittsburgh then wouldn't it make them number one?

2. What makes a franchise great is the fan base. Not only does the sport itself make the game exciting but also the passion of the fans and great lengths they go to show how much they love the team. Many current NHL franchises are failing due to poor ticket sales, merchandising, and TV viewership. These are the three most important things that make a team profitable. If you were to research the most valuable team in the NHL then the Toronto Maple Leafs would be number one at a value of 448 million dollars. Not only is it worth almost half a billion dollars but the most recent offers for the franchise has exceeded one billion dollars.
If a franchise continually loses but is still worth the most among the entire league then doesnt that descirbe the greatness of its potential to rake profits and build more loyal fans?

3. Toronto is Canada's team. Most NHL franchises are successful in Canada, most Canadians would rather see a Canadian team win championships then an American team. Every team clings to hope and most teams cannot repeat championships, if you were to say a great franchise is great because of the players then your missing the fact of what makes a team a great franchise, its the fans. Fans build the attendance, without the attendance there is no need for the team to exist.
knucklepuk

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for his quick response and apologize for mine taking so long. I am in my last week of school and have a ton of stuff to do in preparation.

"Among all of these teams the Montreal Candians have won the most championships, if your argument is to state the current greatest franchise is the team that wins the most, then the Pittsburgh Penguins have only won three championships since the establishment of the franchise in 1967. If you were to base the greatest franchise upon who has won the most then Montreal would be number one with a massive 25 championships."---Choosing one of those two franchises would be logical, and neither one of those are the Leafs.

My opponent is correct that the Forbes article indicated that the Leafs had higher attendance than the Penguins, however after reviewing it the article is probably a bit outdated. For this past season, the Blackhawks easily beat out the Leafs in attendance figures. I could not find any statistics about the merchandise sales but my opponent said that "If Toronto were a winning team they would sell more merchandise, if they sold more then Pittsburgh then wouldn't it make them number one?". Yes. If the Maple Leafs won, and sold the most, and had the best attendance, then yes they would be number one. But like he has conceded multiple times, they do not win, and they haven't won in over 4 decades. Until he provides a better source than mine for merchandise we can assume that the Leafs aren't in the top of the league in that category either. The Leafs may have fun support, but clearly it is not the best. [1]

The bottom line in this debate is that the Maple Leafs have been terrible on the ice. They simply cannot be the greatest team in the NHL without having won a championship in over 40 years. If they had won even a couple, then it would be easy to argue based on their fan support that they could be the greatest team, but the lack of championships automatically omits them from any discussion.

[1] http://espn.go.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Teash

Pro

Teash forfeited this round.
knucklepuk

Con

My opponent has not refuted my arguments from the previous round.
Debate Round No. 3
Teash

Pro

Teash forfeited this round.
knucklepuk

Con

The Leafs are bad.

Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 4
Teash

Pro

Teash forfeited this round.
knucklepuk

Con

I urge a Con vote.
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by knucklepuk 6 years ago
knucklepuk
lol take your time im going on senior trip to d.c. for a week anyways so my responses won't be quick either
Posted by Teash 6 years ago
Teash
This is getting deep, I'm gonna have to take my time, especially when I got a dumb girl on my mind.
Posted by knucklepuk 6 years ago
knucklepuk
Go Hurricanes!
Posted by socialpinko 6 years ago
socialpinko
Put the number of rounds to three and I'll accept.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by GavinAurion 6 years ago
GavinAurion
TeashknucklepukTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro brings up a very compelling argument for the fanbase and profit mattering the most. Since this is a debate about the franchise, and therefore suggests that the business aspect also plays a role, Pro's argument is valid, despite what Con said about teams winning. However, Con successfully rebutted the points Pro brought up about merchandise profits and fanbase size with evidence, while Pro did not offer any valid citation.