The Instigator
CharmanderAttak
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
fuzala
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Transgender Students Should Reside in Their Gender's Hall

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/10/2013 Category: Society
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 888 times Debate No: 40260
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (0)

 

CharmanderAttak

Pro

Sex- The biological parts one possesses. (Male/Female/Intersexed)
Gender - The personal sexual identity of an individual, regardless of the person's biological and outward sex. (Men, boys/Women, girls/Gender queer)
The argument being made is that those who are not cisgendered should reside in the government funded halls that they feel is their correct gender.
The reasonings I will give are that residing in the hall of their sex can cause psychological harm, it does not harm cisgendered students, and that it is a ridiculous idea to separate humans by the sex of which they could not control as it discriminates against intersexed peoples.
fuzala

Con

Many could take advantage of this set-up. Some males or females who are cisgendered may pretend to be transgendered just so they can perv on the other students.

Why are some dorms separated by gender? There's an option for co-ed, and there's an option for segregation. Those students who choose segregation do so because they feel more comfortable living with strangers who are their own biological sex. This makes changing clothes easier, bathroom use, etc. If the school allows segregated dorms, then the students have the right to live with their biological sex if that is what they choose. It's not fair to infringe on that when they were told they can dorm with those of their biological sex.

There has to be a solution for transgendered people, but that solution cannot be to put people in dorms just because they say they identity as a certain gender.

One solution could be to let transgender people have their own room so they're comfortable and everybody else is comfortable; however, that does not solve the bathroom issue.

Of course, transgendered people can also choose co-ed dorms.
Debate Round No. 1
CharmanderAttak

Pro

"Some males or females who are cisgendered may pretend to be transgendered just so they can perv on the other students."
Should transgender students go through either private therapists or the school's therapists to be diagnosed with GID, this would prevent many of these incidents.

"This makes changing clothes easier, bathroom use, etc."
How so? How is this point any different than segregating by sexual orientation?

"It's not fair to infringe on that when they were told they can dorm with those of their biological sex."
It's not fair to discriminate against the minority either. If this were an option then there could be option to opt out of rooming with a cisgendered or a trans* person on the rooming forms.

"One solution could be to let transgender people have their own room so they're comfortable and everybody else is comfortable; however, that does not solve the bathroom issue."
This is not not discrimination. This is separating trans* people from people who are 'normal'. The bathroom issue can be solved by stalled toilets and showers. There is no need to feel strange about as someone who is living as their true gender.
fuzala

Con

"Should transgender students go through either private therapists or the school's therapists to be diagnosed with GID, this would prevent many of these incidents."

That's a pretty good idea. Plus, I don't think that many people are desperate enough to go through all that trouble just to perv on people.

"How so? How is this point any different than segregating by sexual orientation?"

This has to do with how gyms, changing rooms, fitting rooms, public bathroom are seperated by sex. The majority of people are hetereosexual, and the majority of people are cisgendered. The current system of such facilities is set up to match that. Bathrooms are segregated by sex for safety reasons: to decrease sexual harassment when people are most vulnerable. All these facilities are segregated because people are in various states of undress; hence, they are more vulnerable. A women is more likely to be sexually harrassed by a man than another woman. Most woman will favor such facilities that are with other biological females. Nevertheless, that does not mean accomodations cannot be made for transgenderd people.

There's a safety issue involved for transgendered people too. Transgendered people face harassment whether they are put in dorms of their biological sex or if they are put into dorms with the gender they identify with. One solution is to provide a gender neutral option. Many transgendered people complained about harassment so universities provide the gender neutal option to hinder these issues. This option is actually growing to accomodate transgendered folks.

I think the better solution is to provide the gender neutral option. That way, there's no discrimination or harassment.






Debate Round No. 2
CharmanderAttak

Pro

"I don't think that many people are desperate enough to go through all that trouble just to perv on people. "
Well the idea of it is that if they tried, they would be found out by the professional.

"This has to do with how gyms, changing rooms, fitting rooms, public bathroom are seperated[sic] by sex."
And why is that?

"The majority of people are hetereosexual[sic], and the majority of people are cisgendered."
Oh I see, because if people aren't the majority, then they don't matter.

"All these facilities are segregated because people are in various states of undress; hence, they are more vulnerable."
These facilities also make transgendered persons more vulnerable. One could argue that transgendered persons should have their own facilities because of their dysphoria to their own bodies. However, if they had their own restrooms they would be separated by the birth sex that no one could control.

"Most woman will favor such facilities that are with other biological females."
And most trans women would prefer to change with women as to avoid conflict between cisgendered males.

"Transgendered people face harassment whether they are put in dorms of their biological sex or if they are put into dorms with the gender they identify with."
Then why not give them the preferred option? Putting them in dorms with their assigned sex is by de facto saying that what their gender is doesn't matter.

"One solution is to provide a gender neutral option."
Or you could provide a sex neutral option and therefore don't discriminate against the minority nor upset the masses.

"Many transgendered people complained about harassment so universities provide the gender neutal[sic] option to hinder these issues."
Could you provide your sources?

"That way, there's no discrimination or harassment. "
Creating a separate option is not acceptance, it is still discrimination. African Americans were provided with their own facilities, and yet they were not happy. This was because that separate is not equal, no matter how nice it is.

On to my other point. This discriminates against intersexed people because it demands them to chose between the two parts that they do have. The sex they have on their birth certificate is not valid in this instance because they did not get a say in the matter. Thus a sex was forced on them despite the presence of both types of sexual organs.
fuzala

Con

"I don't think that many people are desperate enough to go through all that trouble just to perv on people. "
Well the idea of it is that if they tried, they would be found out by the professional.

I know. That's why I said that was a good idea. I was agreeing with your point on that one, but I thought of something else. Are school therapists trained to determine GID? Are there extra costs involved? If there are, who would cover these expenses?

"This has to do with how gyms, changing rooms, fitting rooms, public bathroom are separated[sic] by sex."
And why is that?

Right after that comment, I have a whole paragraph explaining why it's like that. That's why it's all in one paragraph. That statement was the main idea of the paragraph.

"The majority of people are hetereosexual[sic], and the majority of people are cisgendered."
Oh I see, because if people aren't the majority, then they don't matter.

I never said they don't matter. After I talked about the majority, I made sure to say "Nevertheless, that does not mean accommodations cannot be made for transgenderd people" in the very same paragraph. Then I proposed the gender neutral option. I'll talk about this more when I give the source for universities providing gender neutral bathrooms when transgendered students complained about harassment.

"Many transgendered people complained about harassment so universities provide the gender neutal[sic] option to hinder these issues."
Could you provide your sources?

"Many of the universities that have created gender-neutral bathrooms did so in response to transgender students’ complaints of harassment or discrimination."

Transgendered people were being harassed and discriminated against so many schools provided the gender neutral option to prevent discrimination and harassment.

Brandeis is one university that has opted for the gender neutral option: "...to provide options for 'students who may identify as transgender or are questioning their gender identity or do not wish to prescribe to gender classifications,' to 'decrease heteronormative assumptions regarding housing assignments,' and to supply options for 'students who are uncomfortable with a same-sex roommate or do not wish to have a same-sex roommate.'"

http://www.brandeis.edu...

Creating a separate option is not acceptance, it is still discrimination. African Americans were provided with their own facilities, and yet they were not happy. This was because that separate is not equal, no matter how nice it is.


Blacks being segregated is a different story. Their facilities did not have as good quality as the facilities for white people. Also, everything was separated: schools, drinking fountains, etc. This was based on racism. The gender neutral option is not based on racism or negative discrimination. It's based on preventing harassment and for safety reasons. The following quotes from the previous link can explain this.

For example, "The Transgender Law and Policy Institute states that more than 150 colleges and universities have gender-neutral bathrooms on-campus currently, and the numbers keep growing."

This Institute works to help transgendered people. It doesn't promote discrimination. This institution seems to be for giving the gender neural option. As I cited before, this option helps to prevent discrimination and harassment. Transgendered people were being harassed and discriminated against when they used bathrooms with the gender they identify with. Thus, the gender neutral option came to prevent harassment. This, of course, extends to living situations like dormitories. This is a reason why the gender neutral option is better than the idea you suggest.




Debate Round No. 3
CharmanderAttak

Pro

Providing gender neutral options is not the same as allowing trans* peoples to use the gendered facilities that they identify with. Simply because it makes some people feel uncomfortable is not the equivalency of discrimination. To allow trans* students to use the restrooms as well as a gender neutral option is the only way to make shure that the majority of people can feel comfortable, this would solve the issue of someone who is not completely out but is living the life style of their true gender.

Saying that "The gender neutral option is not based on racism" doesn't even make sense. Shure, you may not see it as negative discrimination, but that doesn't mean that it isn't. Equal but separate, that it what groups have fought against since civilization began. So you can't use this, but here is one just like it. It isn't the same, it'd be like saying marriage and civil union are the same. In the eyes of the law it is, but there is a principle. Making trans* students the facilities of their sex or completely ungendered restrooms is saying that they do not count as a whole person of their true gender. To discriminate a part of them is to discriminate against the whole of a person.

There isn't even a need for separate restrooms for any gender or sex, so long as there are stalls and policies in place that protect people from wrong doing. The idea that women are in a different restroom to decrease sexual harassment is ridiculous. It perpetuates the idea that all women should be afraid of men, and it perpetuates the idea that all men are going to harm women. As it is now, there is only a door stopping men from doing what you say women are currently protected from.
Restrooms are currently named by gendered words (men/women) and therefore transgendered people should not have a problem using the facilities unless the names are changed to male and female on each sign.
The halls are currently the problem as they are referred to as female and male, but because the facilities in them are not, it shows a lack of understanding by the state.

As for the cost, it wouldn't take long to be officially diagnosed with GID. So long as you went to councilors, who took proper notes, then they can forward their notes (with your permission, of course) and you can be diagnosed within the hour. There are psychologists who practice over the phone and could preform this task fr state, or the state could start hiring people with proper degrees.
fuzala

Con

It's not just about discomfort. As I pointed out earlier, transgendered students were being harassed. They expressed complaints of such so the solution the universities provided was the gender neutral option. The Transgender Law and Policy Institute works with the needs of transgendered people. They even seem to suggest the gender neutral option to prevent harassment.

Having a neutral option does not say that one is ungendered. It just means that facility is for both genders. Students in co-ed dorms don't feel they are labeled as ungendered. The same applies to bathrooms. They're still whole.

The idea of gender segregated bathrooms is not ridiculous. Nevertheless, we are not debating about whether or not bathrooms should be gender segregated or if halls should be gender segregated. We're debating about whether or not transgender students should reside in a hall that contains the gender they identify with. I may have digressed by bringing up the reasons for gender segregated facilities. Nevertheless, I saw this as relevant in the context I first placed this reasoning in.

My stance remains the same. The safest option is to provide transgendered people with gender neutral facilities so they are not harassed. Nor do they have to expose that they are transgendered since going into a gender neutral facility does not reveal that one is transgendered.
Debate Round No. 4
CharmanderAttak

Pro

CharmanderAttak forfeited this round.
fuzala

Con

Final Position: To prevent discrimination and harassment of all people, the effective option is to provide gender neutral facilities such as the halls to transgendered students.
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by alexnotmurfs 3 years ago
alexnotmurfs
Also, it can be dangerous for a transgender person who is stealth (meaning living full-time as their true gender and not being open about their trans identity) to be forced to live in a dorm for people who are the opposite gender. Imagine a guy with a full beard walking into a shared ladies' washroom. He would either have to come out as trans to every random person he meets, or he may be assaulted by women fearing he is a pervert.
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