The Instigator
Shaw357
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Oppenheimer1934
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Transgender people should not be recognized by their self assigned genders. (Version 2)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/6/2016 Category: Society
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 443 times Debate No: 86152
Debate Rounds (3)
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Shaw357

Pro

This is a carry over from an already existing debate that is having some technical issues.

Rules:


Can not change anything when copying over from previous debate.

Have Common Courtesy.


Dnt spek lik3 dis k thx


That's about it.

Failure to comply may result in me calling you a "Fool". This is the only punishment.

There may be unused rounds
----------------------------------------------------

I will be arguing that Transgender people should not be recognized by their self assigned gender, but instead by their biological gender.

Con will argue that Transgender people should be recognized by their self assigned gender (Or something similar).

Definitions: Transgender- a person whose gender identity does not correspond to that person’s
biological sex assigned at birth.

Biological Gender- The human genitalia that defines whether a person is male or female. For the sake of the debate, it will be refered to as a person's sex.

Sex Change- the alteration, by surgery and hormone treatments, of a person's physical
sex characteristics to approximate those of the opposite sex.

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People who consider themselves to be of a different gender than that which was assigned to them at birth should not be recognized as their self identified genders, because it contridicts the laws of nature and biology, it allows for perverts to use bathrooms of the opposite sex without consequence, creates confusion with Identification Cards and the ability of government authorities to identify people, and may exempt male born citizens from the USA Selective Service while forcing female born citizens to enter the USA Selective Service.
Oppenheimer1934

Con

Hello, pro. Thank you for this interesting debate topic.

I myself consider myself gender-fluid, meaning that my perception of my gender changes on a regular basis (Not day-to-day, mind you, but at least once every 4 months). Depending on my gender identity, I will request that my coworkers and friends refer to me as such. (My pronouns remain They, but in which way they describe me changes {IE Handsome vs Pretty}). I believe that transgender people should most definitely be recognized as their self assigned gender.

"In sociology, we make a distinction between sex and gender. Sex are the biological traits that societies use to assign people into the category of either male or female, whether it be through a focus on chromosomes, genitalia or some other physical ascription. When people talk about the differences between men and women they are often drawing on sex " on rigid ideas of biology " rather than gender, which is an understanding of how society shapes our understanding of those biological categories.

Gender is more fluid " it may or may not depend upon biological traits. More specifically, it is a concept that describes how societies determine and manage sex categories; the cultural meanings attached to men and women"s roles; and how individuals understand their identities including, but not limited to, being a man, woman, transgender, intersex, gender queer and other gender positions. Gender involves social norms, attitudes and activities that society deems more appropriate for one sex over another. Gender is also determined by what an individual feels and does." (http://othersociologist.com......)

Based on these statements, from a sociological point of view, you are attempting to say that sex and gender are the same thing. As stated here, they are not.

On to the topic of perverts using bathrooms of the opposite sex, there can be homosexual perverts that use the bathroom of their same sex. There will always be perverts, regardless of what biological sex they are.

People identifying as a different gender than the one assigned at birth contradicts nothing. Never anywhere does it say that if you call yourself a woman, but you were born with a penis, then you are not valid. Women with penises can still father children, which negates your statement about the laws of nature. If a transgender woman (Male to Female) were to undergo sex reassignment surgery, she would be rendered infertile. By your logic, naturally infertile women would also be contradicting the laws of nature and biology.

Since the USA uses European gender (Tribes in Asia, the Americas, and Africa before contact with Europeans, were known to have gender identities outside of the European Male/Female spectrum), yes, things would get hairy when dealing with identification cards. This is why the US should allow people to list their own gender identity instead of their doctor-prescribed one.

When somebody registers themselves as a man, they should be told that they will be subject to the USA Selective Service. This is simply part of the "Male" gender role in the US. It shouldn't matter what parts a person has, if they are willing to adopt traditional male clothing and behavior, and consider themselves a man, they should be subject to the SS.

Conclusion: It doesn't matter what somebody has in their pants; gender is a social construct dating back to the turn of the millennium that led to the time stamp AD. If somebody declares themselves of a specific gender, they should be ready to face the consequences that come with it.

Also, the SS should be broadened to include every citizen of the USA, not just "Males".

Thank you. I await your response, kind sir/madam.
Debate Round No. 1
Shaw357

Pro

Thank you, Con for taking me up on my debate, I appreciate it.

In hindsight, I realize now that this is still a touchy subject and apologize should you or any readers feel offended by the contents within, as that is not the intended purpose of this debate. However let us continue forward.

I will begin by countering some of your claims in a numbered fashion as follows:

1. " I myself consider myself gender-fluid, meaning that my perception of my gender changes on a regular basis"
Of course I am not singling you out, but for the sake of argument, I will use your writing to act as the foundation for my counter claims.
Gender-fluidity is an unnecessary, unreasonable, and unnatural way of behavior. It is all these things that I claim because it is confusing for others to keep up with gender-fluid people who seemingly change their identity on a whim with seemingly no logical reasoning. From what I've seen on a personal level, is that gender fluid people will change genders out of spite, to provoke a reaction out of someone, to gain attention from a collective of people, or to simply have an excuse for something. I can not recall one moment in my life where I have witnessed a gender-fluid person change genders for a rational reason. It is also highly unnatural as it would seem that they have an internal struggle over what their identity may be; if they can't make up their minds, let them be known by what was assigned to them and be done with it.

2. "...it is a concept that describes how societies determine and manage sex categories; the cultural meanings attached to men and women"s roles"
I would like to address this, as it seems contradictory especially in today's society. In modern day USA, a man or woman can take on any "role" that they set their mind to without the need to change their gender. Perhaps 20 years ago that argument would hold truth, but today you will see Men doing jobs and tasks such as hair stylists, dentists, teachers, guest services, nurses, house keeping and more. Jobs which were considered for women exclusively less than 2 decades ago. Likewise you will see Women as mechanics, construction workers, engineers, technicians, electricians, lawyers, doctors, even politicians. You do not need to be a gender that is not your own to pursue what you want to do in life, or fulfil some sort of cultural meaning.

3. "from a sociological point of view, you are attempting to say that sex and gender are the same thing. As stated here, they are not."
Traditionally, sex and gender have meant the same thing, that's what I learned growing up, and that's what you learned growing up (Unless you happen to be 12 which I highly doubt). To change the definition of a word to fit your needs is unnatural and unnecessary. If this was a common occurrence, up would be down, apple would be orange, green would be red, simply because people felt like they wanted to change it to fit their own needs.

4. "On to the topic of perverts using bathrooms of the opposite sex, there can be homosexual perverts that use the bathroom of their same sex. There will always be perverts, regardless of what biological sex they are." Currently, 96.6% of adults are straight according to a survey [1]. If you allow people who claim to be of the other gender, that's 96.6% of people that are mingling with the opposite gender in a small and enclosed private area, where Peeping Toms, Sexual Predators, and even Kidnappers will have a greater chance to act on their dark desires because they are now presented the opportunity.

5. "People identifying as a different gender than the one assigned at birth contradicts nothing." In fact it does, as they are going against what nature intended for them to be, and consider themselves to be the wrong gender.

6. "Never anywhere does it say that if you call yourself a woman, but you were born with a penis, then you are not valid." John Hopkins, a Psychiatrist, claims that if you call yourself the opposite sex than that of which you really are, then you are suffering from a mental illness which is in need of treatment.[2] He also goes on to say that by denying your own body, you are denying an undeniable fact of yourself. Among his claims, a suicide rate 20 times that of a non transgendered person is usually present, perhaps another sign as to this being a mental illness. I just don't see how denying reality which is plain as day can be considered normal behavior and not a cause for worry.

7. "...things would get hairy when dealing with identification cards. This is why the US should allow people to list their own gender identity instead of their doctor-prescribed one." You yourself claim to be genderfluid, it can not be printed on an identification card that you are either male or female, as you could simply decide, on a whim no less, to change your mind. Periodically even. This would lead to huge discrepancies and problems in border crossings, police investigations, official documents, and things of that nature.
If I were a police officer and a criminal just did something, and a witness tries to describe them, I may end up arresting the wrong person because their ID says they are a woman, when in fact they are a man who claims to be a woman.

8. As far as the SS goes, I think it should be everyone or no one. It's simply not fair, nor do I think it to be right. (My name probably got bumped up on the roster just for saying that, but oh well. Here's to hoping WW3 happens when I'm out of the age range for the SS)

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com......

[2] http://cnsnews.com......

Thank you for reading, I patiently await your response.
Oppenheimer1934

Con

Thank you, Pro. I enjoyed reading your rebuttal. I will defend my statements (The ones you "attacked") in the same order you have them in. Note that I use offensive language, such as twat, in the same case as dolt or fool. I am not meaning to offend or call names.

1. I appreciate your kindness, dear sir. Gender-fluid people, such as myself, are often times triggered by either emotional or personal reasons (Such as "I feel pretty today. Dunno why. Just do.). There is not enough study into the psychology of genderfluidity to understand exactly why we feel different genders. There is no internal struggle, I have my mind very well made. Some days I feel more like your stereotypical boy, and some a girl.

2. Of course, you see people breaking out of these European gender roles more and more, but women are still thought to wear dresses and be pretty, while men strong and stoic. If there were a way to post pictures (@debate.org staff), I would provide some examples. Dresses are still seen as girl clothes, while slacks and button-downs boy clothes.

3. You are very correct in assuming I am not 12, 15 in April in fact. I grew up being told the difference between sex and gender, as my mother took multiple gender studies classes in college. Sex, being either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and many other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions, and gender, being the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones), are obviously two completely different things. Sex is really easy: Do you have a penis, vagina, or somewhere in-between (intersex)? Gender, on the other hand, is mental. It's based on the society around you and your personal beliefs (Such as the Native American example).

4. Take pedophiles for example. They could identify as straight, yet prey on children of their same gender. There is quite literally nothing stopping me (Assuming I am strictly male in this example) from going into the women's toilets and chilling around there. According to this survey (which I fact checked, good resource), yes, LGBT+ people are the minority. Nothing is stopping a straight Tom, Predator, or Kidnapper from going into a women's toilet and snatching/raping/oogling a young girl. Most Transgendered people are not rapists or pedophiles, just as most straight folk aren't.

5. There you go again, confusing sex and gender. I can say that I identify more with the societal norms associated with girls, but still have a penis and therefore can reproduce.

6. Johns Hopkins is a hospital, you twat. Gender Dysphoria (The feeling of "Being in the wrong body") is a mental disorder. I'm not saying it isn't, this has been proven. Typically, the treatment for this involves hormonal therapy and sex changes to help the person feel more happy with their body. Do you know why Trans people have a higher suicide rate? Because people constantly harass them about not being valid or a person. Their gender (IE the way they identify based on societal norms), should not concern other people, for it is their life to live. Let them live it.

7. I would simply put "Gender-Fluid", or GF I guess. If a person gives a physical description of someone, a police sketch artist give them a picture of the criminal's face. If you can't look at a picture of someone, and then out of 10 suspects point out the person in the picture, I can recommend you an optometrist.

8. Fallout 5 confirmed. If WWIII does happen, I got your back, Brother.
Debate Round No. 2
Shaw357

Pro

Some more Vocab.

Con, if you disagree with my definitions, then please say so during your round. However it is to be assumed that these are the definitions I am using for this round in particular, and for future rounds as well, unless stated otherwise.

Gender (n): The mental state of being male or female

Masculine (adj): having qualities or appearance traditionally associated with men.

Feminine (adj): having qualities or appearance traditionally associated with women.

Mood (noun): a temporary state of mind or feeling.

Dear Con,
I find it intriguing that you would open up your round with an introductory that mentions how you use offensive language within the article, then proceed to claim you are not calling names and have no intention for offense. At first I thought that to be very polite and noble of you for the warning, honesty, and saying it was not to be taken offensively. However as I got down to the passage, you literally and blatantly addressed me with, "you twat", a very clear and obvious noun that is used when addressing someone directly meant to be an insult. And so, as I warned, you're a very weak-minded fool. A weak-minded fool whom I can justifiably call for breaking 1 out of 2 easy to follow rules. You blatantly lied by starting off by saying you had no intent for ill-will, yet proceeded to do so anyways. I would consider this to be a direct defiance to the Codes of Chivalry as you showed the flag for peace, only to go against your word.

If for some reason, any one was too lazy to read that, here's the summary: "w0w r00d m8, y u gotta b so mean"


Ah yes, back to rebutting the rebuttals of rebuttals.

1. "There is not enough study into the psychology of genderfluidity to understand exactly why we feel different genders."

As previously stated, there is no rational thought process for believing one's self to be of a gender that is different than that of their sex. You even said it yourself, "There is not enough study into the psychology of genderfluidity to understand exactly why we feel different genders". Gender Fluidity has supposedly been a term since the 1990's, with a more accurately recorded date being 2007 [1], possibly even dating before that by hundreds of years by people who were not willing to record this feeling of Gender Fluidity about themselves (Prosecution and such would have likely had them killed, banished, shunned, etc. depending on different cultures). If you yourself can not think of a valid reason other than, "Some days I feel more like your stereotypical boy, and some a girl" as justification for arguing against reality, biology, and logical reasoning, then I would have to say that you are far from being in the right. If anything, by your definition, you simply feel more masculine or feminine depending on your mood; far from such a radical idea as a gender change.

2. "Dresses are still seen as girl clothes, while slacks and button-downs boy clothes". More and more frequently is this borderline in "fashion" dissolving. Girls are more frequently being seen in "revealing" or "manly" clothing in public areas as opposed to the traditional ways where such an act was considered being repulsive. As are men shifting their clothing styles to whatever they feel like wearing. Skinny Jeans for example would have been considered a young women's type of leg wear not too long ago, now guys are wearing them, they're proud they're wearing them, no one else really bats an eye. Clothing is becoming "Gender Neutral" and no longer are members of the opposite sex discouraged from wearing clothing not originally meant for them. I don't feel like a statistic is needed for this, as this is evident by simply visiting a market place or area with lots of people from both sexes. Marketers are also finally realizing as well that if they promote clothing to apply to both sexes, sales will increase without the need to spend money on a new product line, thus leading fashion companies to promote this gender neutral style. I personally have never cared for dresses, flannels, or fashion in general. I believe everyone should wear what makes them feel comfortable and feel good about themselves, when in an appropriate environment, rather than caring what others think of them. A change in gender is most definately an extreme decision that is not needed in order to wear clothes that have in the past been reserved for the opposite sex.

3. "I grew up being told the difference between sex and gender, as my mother took multiple gender studies classes in college". I appluad your enthusiasm in defending the transgendered community, as well as yourself. However, and yes I am playing "the age game", but 14 seems a little young to have fully grasped the concepts of "social norms", and more importantly, the concept of college level "gender studies". I don't have reason to doubt that your mother attended such classes, although I'm certain you do not have the same level of education in this field. Additionally, I remain skeptical as to what those classes teach; they have a negative reputation for "preaching" ideas and beliefs, telling students that they are facts when they are not. Feminist movements also have a reputation linking to gender studies, in which they attempt to push their feminist agendas into the classroom. But I digress.

"Sex, being either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and many other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions, and gender, being the state of being male or female". While that does seem to be the current definitions of those words no doubt in relation to social movements, I remember being in elementary school and learning that gender and sex were the same thing, taught by my teachers and peers. "Sex" being considered a more "dirty" word to say, the word "gender" was used more often when describing someone's orientation based on natural born genetalia. Now that I think about it, this happened seemingly right before the social movements began getting mainstream attention, supporting my claim that the definitions were radically changed to accomodate for the transgender community intruding on the English Dictionary.

4. "There is quite literally nothing stopping me (Assuming I am strictly male in this example) from going into the women's toilets and chilling around there". I strongly disagree, if you were a little older, I have no doubt that a panicked woman with access to pepper spray would mace you without hesitating for intruding in a room meant to provide privacy for women, even more so because you'd be "chilling around there". You've no business to be in there unless you had plans for ill-intent towards any potential victims.

"Nothing is stopping a straight Tom, Predator, or Kidnapper from going into a women's toilet and snatching/raping/oogling a young girl." Actually there is, because everyone knows that they have no right being in the opposite sex's room. If that were to happen today, the opposite sex would be kicked out (probably with force), because there is no reason for them to be there. If that were to change however, and the sexes were allowed to be using the same room without consequences, alot more sexual related crime would ensue in those bathrooms because you can't kick anyone out of it under mere suspicion.

5. Skipping for obvious reasons

6."Do you know why Trans people have a higher suicide rate? Because people constantly harass them about not being valid or a person". This has been true for every peoples who have had to undergo a social revolution in order for society to accept them as "normal" If you know that your society frowns upon idea X, then by expressing yourself as idea X will lead people to frown upon you and harass you, you have no reason to expect social revolutions to just happen overnight with no opposition whatsoever.
It's happened with the LGBT, African Americans, women's rights, athiests, and more. By going against "normality", you accept the consequences of becoming a social outcast and center of negative attention. If you can't handle the consequences, then don't announce your rebelion of societial norms to complete strangers.

This is yet another reason Transgender people shouldn't be recognized, they go and do foolish things like this, expecting no resistance at all, then go on to complain about it as if they had nothing to do with announcing their herecy to the world, fully knowing that they would be rebounded, yet claiming to be the victim.

I rest my case here, and look forward to Con's final response. It's been fun, apart from the whole technical issue thing.

Oppenheimer1934

Con

Thank you for your argument, pro. I would like to again state you're a twat.
TWAT: a person regarded as stupid or obnoxious.

Now we can go back to rebutting the rebutting of rebutted rebuttals.

1. Logically, I can do whatever the hell I want. In America, there is this wonderful bill called the Constitution. In it, is this document called the Bill of Rights. There are a few amendments, but I'll sum it up: You can do whatever you want, so long as it isn't illegal. By YOUR definition of gender, one I agree on, there is nothing wrong with my mental state of being a girl or boy. Since it's mental, it has nothing to do with biology.

You seem to be going away from the topic, that Trans/(Since we threw me in there) Gender-Fluid people shouldn't be recognized by their identities. In your digression on this topic, you proceeded to assume that all transgender people are rapists and pedophiles. This, kind sir, is not the case. Transgender people are no more pedophiles or rapists than the average cis-gender person.

When I said nothing is stopping a predator from going into a restroom, I meant it. Say, for example, I'm a pedophile (Which I am not, just for this example). I could walk in to, say, a girl's toilets and hide in the stall, waiting for some little girl to walk by. It isn't too hard.

You seem to think that in order for someone to rape another person, they have to Ocean's 11 it and have a long plan. That is not the case. In most cases, rapists act on impulse. Nothing is stopping them from walking by and snatching a little girl or a little boy to rape them. No more sexual crime would occur, because nothing is stopping a predator from hiding in a bathroom.

Your entire argument digresses from the topic. You proceed to demonize an entire group of people, while accusing me of having my widdle feewing hurt ("w0w r00d m8, y u gotta b so mean").

Based solely on the topic, who the hell are you to tell people what they can or cannot do? The laws are clear. Being trans is not a crime, but you proceed to paint it like one. You play this age game and know nothing about me. I am currently studying quantum physics on my own, I'm pretty sure I can handle a gender studies class from the 90's. Your entire argument is based around me being an idiot, and playing transgender people off to be criminals. And, going against "Normality" by being black? So by being born black I accept the consequences of being the center of negative attention? This argument is horrible in it's own right.

Nobody yells about societal norms to strangers. If someone asks, you answer. If someone uses the improper pronouns, you gently correct them. It's just common courtesy.

In case you didn't read my whole argument, "Listen, you twat. You are in no place to tell people what they can or can't do. You aren't the Thought Police. If you want the world to be better, just let people be. Stop demonizing a group of people just because you don't like them".

This debate meant a lot to me, since it's on a subject I am passionate about. Thank you, Pro, for the amazing topic.
I'm an amazing atheist, peace the f*ck out.
Debate Round No. 3
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