The Instigator
Shaw357
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Oppenheimer1934
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Transgender people should not be recognized by their self assigned genders.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/1/2016 Category: Society
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 614 times Debate No: 85896
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (4)
Votes (0)

 

Shaw357

Pro

Rules:

Have Common Courtesy.


Dnt spek lik3 dis k thx


That's about it.

Failure to comply may result in me calling you a "Fool". This is the only punishment.

There may be unused rounds
----------------------------------------------------

I will be arguing that Transgender people should not be recognized by their self assigned gender, but instead by their biological gender.

Con will argue that Transgender people should be recognized by their self assigned gender (Or something similar).

Definitions: Transgender- a person whose gender identity does not correspond to that person’s
biological sex assigned at birth.

Biological Gender- The human genitalia that defines whether a person is male or female. For the sake of the debate, it will be refered to as a person's sex.

Sex Change- the alteration, by surgery and hormone treatments, of a person's physical
sex characteristics to approximate those of the opposite sex.

-----------------------------------------------------

People who consider themselves to be of a different gender than that which was assigned to them at birth should not be recognized as their self identified genders, because it contridicts the laws of nature and biology, it allows for perverts to use bathrooms of the opposite sex without consequence, creates confusion with Identification Cards and the ability of government authorities to identify people, and may exempt male born citizens from the USA Selective Service while forcing female born citizens to enter the USA Selective Service.
Oppenheimer1934

Con

Hello, pro. Thank you for this interesting debate topic.

I myself consider myself gender-fluid, meaning that my perception of my gender changes on a regular basis (Not day-to-day, mind you, but at least once every 4 months). Depending on my gender identity, I will request that my coworkers and friends refer to me as such. (My pronouns remain They, but in which way they describe me changes {IE Handsome vs Pretty}). I believe that transgender people should most definitely be recognized as their self assigned gender.

"In sociology, we make a distinction between sex and gender. Sex are the biological traits that societies use to assign people into the category of either male or female, whether it be through a focus on chromosomes, genitalia or some other physical ascription. When people talk about the differences between men and women they are often drawing on sex " on rigid ideas of biology " rather than gender, which is an understanding of how society shapes our understanding of those biological categories.

Gender is more fluid " it may or may not depend upon biological traits. More specifically, it is a concept that describes how societies determine and manage sex categories; the cultural meanings attached to men and women"s roles; and how individuals understand their identities including, but not limited to, being a man, woman, transgender, intersex, gender queer and other gender positions. Gender involves social norms, attitudes and activities that society deems more appropriate for one sex over another. Gender is also determined by what an individual feels and does." (http://othersociologist.com...)

Based on these statements, from a sociological point of view, you are attempting to say that sex and gender are the same thing. As stated here, they are not.

On to the topic of perverts using bathrooms of the opposite sex, there can be homosexual perverts that use the bathroom of their same sex. There will always be perverts, regardless of what biological sex they are.

People identifying as a different gender than the one assigned at birth contradicts nothing. Never anywhere does it say that if you call yourself a woman, but you were born with a penis, then you are not valid. Women with penises can still father children, which negates your statement about the laws of nature. If a transgender woman (Male to Female) were to undergo sex reassignment surgery, she would be rendered infertile. By your logic, naturally infertile women would also be contradicting the laws of nature and biology.

Since the USA uses European gender (Tribes in Asia, the Americas, and Africa before contact with Europeans, were known to have gender identities outside of the European Male/Female spectrum), yes, things would get hairy when dealing with identification cards. This is why the US should allow people to list their own gender identity instead of their doctor-prescribed one.

When somebody registers themselves as a man, they should be told that they will be subject to the USA Selective Service. This is simply part of the "Male" gender role in the US. It shouldn't matter what parts a person has, if they are willing to adopt traditional male clothing and behavior, and consider themselves a man, they should be subject to the SS.

Conclusion: It doesn't matter what somebody has in their pants; gender is a social construct dating back to the turn of the millennium that led to the time stamp AD. If somebody declares themselves of a specific gender, they should be ready to face the consequences that come with it.

Also, the SS should be broadened to include every citizen of the USA, not just "Males".

Thank you. I await your response, kind sir/madam.
Debate Round No. 1
Shaw357

Pro

Thank you, Con for taking me up on my debate, I appreciate it.

In hindsight, I realize now that this is still a touchy subject and apologize should you or any readers feel offended by the contents within, as that is not the intended purpose of this debate. However let us continue forward.

I will begin by countering some of your claims in a numbered fashion as follows:

1. " I myself consider myself gender-fluid, meaning that my perception of my gender changes on a regular basis"
Of course I am not singling you out, but for the sake of argument, I will use your writing to act as the foundation for my counter claims.
Gender-fluidity is an unnecessary, unreasonable, and unnatural way of behavior. It is all these things that I claim because it is confusing for others to keep up with gender-fluid people who seemingly change their identity on a whim with seemingly no logical reasoning. From what I've seen on a personal level, is that gender fluid people will change genders out of spite, to provoke a reaction out of someone, to gain attention from a collective of people, or to simply have an excuse for something. I can not recall one moment in my life where I have witnessed a gender-fluid person change genders for a rational reason. It is also highly unnatural as it would seem that they have an internal struggle over what their identity may be; if they can't make up their minds, let them be known by what was assigned to them and be done with it.

2. "...it is a concept that describes how societies determine and manage sex categories; the cultural meanings attached to men and women"s roles"
I would like to address this, as it seems contradictory especially in today's society. In modern day USA, a man or woman can take on any "role" that they set their mind to without the need to change their gender. Perhaps 20 years ago that argument would hold truth, but today you will see Men doing jobs and tasks such as hair stylists, dentists, teachers, guest services, nurses, house keeping and more. Jobs which were considered for women exclusively less than 2 decades ago. Likewise you will see Women as mechanics, construction workers, engineers, technicians, electricians, lawyers, doctors, even politicians. You do not need to be a gender that is not your own to pursue what you want to do in life, or fulfil some sort of cultural meaning.

3. "from a sociological point of view, you are attempting to say that sex and gender are the same thing. As stated here, they are not."
Traditionally, sex and gender have meant the same thing, that's what I learned growing up, and that's what you learned growing up (Unless you happen to be 12 which I highly doubt). To change the definition of a word to fit your needs is unnatural and unnecessary. If this was a common occurrence, up would be down, apple would be orange, green would be red, simply because people felt like they wanted to change it to fit their own needs.

4. "On to the topic of perverts using bathrooms of the opposite sex, there can be homosexual perverts that use the bathroom of their same sex. There will always be perverts, regardless of what biological sex they are." Currently, 96.6% of adults are straight according to a survey [1]. If you allow people who claim to be of the other gender, that's 96.6% of people that are mingling with the opposite gender in a small and enclosed private area, where Peeping Toms, Sexual Predators, and even Kidnappers will have a greater chance to act on their dark desires because they are now presented the opportunity.

5. "People identifying as a different gender than the one assigned at birth contradicts nothing." In fact it does, as they are going against what nature intended for them to be, and consider themselves to be the wrong gender.

6. "Never anywhere does it say that if you call yourself a woman, but you were born with a penis, then you are not valid." John Hopkins, a Psychiatrist, claims that if you call yourself the opposite sex than that of which you really are, then you are suffering from a mental illness which is in need of treatment.[2] He also goes on to say that by denying your own body, you are denying an undeniable fact of yourself. Among his claims, a suicide rate 20 times that of a non transgendered person is usually present, perhaps another sign as to this being a mental illness. I just don't see how denying reality which is plain as day can be considered normal behavior and not a cause for worry.

7. "...things would get hairy when dealing with identification cards. This is why the US should allow people to list their own gender identity instead of their doctor-prescribed one." You yourself claim to be genderfluid, it can not be printed on an identification card that you are either male or female, as you could simply decide, on a whim no less, to change your mind. Periodically even. This would lead to huge discrepancies and problems in border crossings, police investigations, official documents, and things of that nature.
If I were a police officer and a criminal just did something, and a witness tries to describe them, I may end up arresting the wrong person because their ID says they are a woman, when in fact they are a man who claims to be a woman.

8. As far as the SS goes, I think it should be everyone or no one. It's simply not fair, nor do I think it to be right. (My name probably got bumped up on the roster just for saying that, but oh well. Here's to hoping WW3 happens when I'm out of the age range for the SS)

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com...

[2] http://cnsnews.com...

Thank you for reading, I patiently await your response.

Oppenheimer1934

Con

Thank you, Pro. I enjoyed reading your rebuttal. I will defend my statements (The ones you "attacked") in the same order you have them in. Note that I use offensive language, such as twat, in the same case as dolt or fool. I am not meaning to offend or call names.

1. I appreciate your kindness, dear sir. Gender-fluid people, such as myself, are often times triggered by either emotional or personal reasons (Such as "I feel pretty today. Dunno why. Just do.). There is not enough study into the psychology of genderfluidity to understand exactly why we feel different genders. There is no internal struggle, I have my mind very well made. Some days I feel more like your stereotypical boy, and some a girl.

2. Of course, you see people breaking out of these European gender roles more and more, but women are still thought to wear dresses and be pretty, while men strong and stoic. If there were a way to post pictures (@debate.org staff), I would provide some examples. Dresses are still seen as girl clothes, while slacks and button-downs boy clothes.

3. You are very correct in assuming I am not 12, 15 in April in fact. I grew up being told the difference between sex and gender, as my mother took multiple gender studies classes in college. Sex, being either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and many other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions, and gender, being the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones), are obviously two completely different things. Sex is really easy: Do you have a penis, vagina, or somewhere in-between (intersex)? Gender, on the other hand, is mental. It's based on the society around you and your personal beliefs (Such as the Native American example).

4. Take pedophiles for example. They could identify as straight, yet prey on children of their same gender. There is quite literally nothing stopping me (Assuming I am strictly male in this example) from going into the women's toilets and chilling around there. According to this survey (which I fact checked, good resource), yes, LGBT+ people are the minority. Nothing is stopping a straight Tom, Predator, or Kidnapper from going into a women's toilet and snatching/raping/oogling a young girl. Most Transgendered people are not rapists or pedophiles, just as most straight folk aren't.

5. There you go again, confusing sex and gender. I can say that I identify more with the societal norms associated with girls, but still have a penis and therefore can reproduce.

6. Johns Hopkins is a hospital, you twat. Gender Dysphoria (The feeling of "Being in the wrong body") is a mental disorder. I'm not saying it isn't, this has been proven. Typically, the treatment for this involves hormonal therapy and sex changes to help the person feel more happy with their body. Do you know why Trans people have a higher suicide rate? Because people constantly harass them about not being valid or a person. Their gender (IE the way they identify based on societal norms), should not concern other people, for it is their life to live. Let them live it.

7. I would simply put "Gender-Fluid", or GF I guess. If a person gives a physical description of someone, a police sketch artist give them a picture of the criminal's face. If you can't look at a picture of someone, and then out of 10 suspects point out the person in the picture, I can recommend you an optometrist.

8. Fallout 5 confirmed. If WWIII does happen, I got your back, Brother.
Debate Round No. 2
This round has not been posted yet.
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 3
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Shaw357 1 year ago
Shaw357
This debate has some technical issues and is incomplete. A new one is underway where everything will be copied over, and the final rounds posted.
Posted by Oppenheimer1934 1 year ago
Oppenheimer1934
I ain't seeing it either, Pro. I'll keep an eye out for it. If it doesn't show and I don't catch it, we can just start a new debate and copy over everything.
Posted by Shaw357 1 year ago
Shaw357
My Round 3 entry does not seem to be appearing, but hoping that it does, here are some references I couldn't fit in the round:

http://www.urbandictionary.com...

http://www.details.com...
Posted by moneystacker 1 year ago
moneystacker
from a common sense standpoint this argument makes sense. I mean just because you change how you look doesn't mean you aren't a guy or girl anymore. I mean you were born a guy/girl.
No votes have been placed for this debate.