The Instigator
Backwards_Bishop
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
jareness
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Transgenderism Is A Mental Illness

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/13/2017 Category: Science
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 728 times Debate No: 98930
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (1)

 

Backwards_Bishop

Pro

A man who claims to be a woman "on the inside" should not be considered a normal, sane person. A man, who has X and Y chromosomes, can never have X and X chromosomes, such as a woman does. It is not offensive to say this, it is never offensive to say the truth. What is offensive is when people are called "transphobic" for using their head. A man cannot, and will never, change into a woman and the same goes vice versa.
jareness

Con

Premise 1: anyone with gender identity X00; assigned birth sex is not sane, i.e. they are insane.
Premise 2: XY doesn"t equal XX. Obviously. You go on to imply that saying so is offensive to some, and further that it is offensive that those that do accept this fact are considered trans phobic.
Premise 3: XY always = Man and XX always = Woman.

Refutation 1: insanity means a break with reality. How do you square this with, for instance, a transgender university professor that follows all civil law and is a responsible, concerned citizen involved with the community? You can"t.
Refutation 2: being offensive or being offended aren"t grounds for a logical argument. Personal feelings aren"t for and against reasons. In any case, denying X derism exists is not the same as being X phobic, unless, of course, the shoe fits.
Refutation 3: XY is genetic code (most of the time) for a penis, and XX is genetic code (most of the time) for a vagina. There are other significant differences, such as hormonal and endocrine gland chemistries, but you seem to be implying that the 23rd pair are the beginning and the end of what defines who we think we are. The first refutation states that this isn"t always the case.
Debate Round No. 1
Backwards_Bishop

Pro

A mental illness is something that will affect one's moods and behaviors as well as one's thinking. Insanity either means that a person is very foolish or they are at a state of being mentally ill.
Ex: A man who suffers from bipolarism states the radio they have is talking to them. The normal reaction to this would be to get this person help and not say "The radio is talking to you, Steven. Now live your life normally knowing that this radio will always be talking to you."
Now let's switch up these words a little bit.
Ex: A man who suffers from transgenderism states that they are a woman. The normal reaction to this would be to get this person counseling and not say "But you are not a woman, Steven. Now, live your life normally knowing that you will always be a man."
Both suffer from delusions but only one gets the proper help they need whilst the other does not. This is due to the false argument that gender is a social construct made by us humans.
jareness

Con

To begin, let"s start with a definition of what we"re debating: transgenderism: of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity differs from the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth;
1)You say a very foolish person fits the definition of someone insane. This is rejected by definition.
2)Trangender men do not assert (again, by definition) that they are women. They assert that they identify with the gender identity of women, and live accordingly.
3)You say Steven is delusional, is mentally insane, and needs help. This same argument was used by the medical community against gays, but was professionally rejected almost 50 years ago. The APA says, "A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability." The most likely cause of stress Steven is likely to feel is someone telling him his gender identity is false and due to a mental illness.
Debate Round No. 2
Backwards_Bishop

Pro

The cause of Steven's stress does not come from someone telling him that what he believes is a delusion and is false. 4.6% of people in the United States have tried to kill themselves at some point. 41% of those that have attempted suicide suffer from transgenderism. Many say that this is because they are being oppressed by everyone around them. This is false. The reason these people try to kill themselves is purely because they aren't getting the proper treatment they need. Mutilation and hormonal "therapy" aren't proper ways to treat a mental illness. In fact, the percentages of the people who try to kill themselves go up after they have gone through this "therapy."
Child transitioning is perfectly acceptable by the media, Caitlyn Jenner has won a courage award for getting a boob job and your argument still has not been made clear.
By the way, here's the definition of "insanity"
1. the state of being seriously mentally ill; madness. 2. extreme foolishness or irrationality.
jareness

Con

My position is based on the American Psychological Association's current definition of transgenderism, not what the media says. You say I haven"t made my case. I believe my refutation of your position has been quite clear. Allow me to recap.

*There are too many happy, well adjusted, and fully functioning transgenders for your argument that transgender = insane to be true. Whatever your position, this is logically irrefutable.

*You seem to believe that the 23rd pair of chromosomes is the sole decider of gender and associated identification with it. Even a casual glance across the spectrum of human experience and sexuality by an unbiased observer would reject this.

*Finally, I pointed out that my position is backed up by professionals that make careers out of studying the psychological states of people. The core source of your position, or that of the statistics you offered, is anybody"s guess.

I've enjoyed the debate.
Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Backwards_Bishop 1 year ago
Backwards_Bishop
Ah, no, I understood where that comment was aimed at. I understand as well, no point in debating twice. Hopefully we will debate once more, you've taught me a lot. I haven't done a written debate before, or an actual debate at all for that matter, so I appreciate you.
Have a good one, Jare. :D
Posted by jareness 1 year ago
jareness
Hi Bishop. To be clear, my last comment was aimed at capitalistslave. And I appreciate the invite on a redo, but I don't know if I would learn much more about this issue or could come up with any more compelling arguments than the ones already offered. Perhaps we'll meet in another debate on a different topic.
Best,
Jerry
Posted by Backwards_Bishop 1 year ago
Backwards_Bishop
Honestly I thought 1,000 characters would be more than enough. I might redo this debate with Jare again with the max amount of chars if he's up for it. :D
Posted by jareness 1 year ago
jareness
Hehe, your position is that you liked the paintings but aren't going to pick your favorite painting because you weren't told where the paint came from. With only a 1,000 characters to choose from I decided to waste them on the argument instead of citations, other than the fact that I mentioned the source of the definition I offered for transgenderism, i.e. the American Psychological Association.
Posted by Capitalistslave 1 year ago
Capitalistslave
I would have gone about this debate in a different way, as you can see in my below debate, I did do it differently: http://www.debate.org...

I would vote on this debate you guys had, but I consider you both tied in everything, so there's no point to vote. Maybe I'll do it anyways lol. The reason I consider you both tied is because pretty much everything you both said were unsubstantiated claims. For one, you didn't agree on definitions of the terms in the first round, and neither of you provided sources for the definitions you provided later. This entire debate hinges on that, and since neither of you did that, all of your claims can be dismissed for both of you.
Posted by Sciguy 1 year ago
Sciguy
Intriguing... you seem to be proposing that society is, perhaps, in a state of deluded consciousness about gender dysphoria. I would love to see a Pro victory.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Capitalistslave 1 year ago
Capitalistslave
Backwards_BishopjarenessTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Since I am making them all tied, RFD is not required, I believe. I do have reasons for making tied for arguments, anyways posted in my comment in the comment section.