The Instigator
Meropenem777
Pro (for)
Winning
2 Points
The Contender
ReeThoughts
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Transgenderism should be considered a mental illness.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Meropenem777
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/22/2016 Category: Health
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 698 times Debate No: 91651
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (0)
Votes (2)

 

Meropenem777

Pro

Transgenderism should be considered a mental illness.
(Personally, I'm neutral on this issue, I just want to learn more by debating.)

Transgenderism: "A state or condition in which a person"s identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional ideas of male or female gender."

Consider: "...deem to be; regard as..."

Mental illness: "...disorders in which a person's thoughts, emotions, or behaviour are so abnormal as to cause suffering to himself, herself, or other people."

1st round: Simply greetings and acceptance (i.e. Opponent agrees to the debate and terms of the debate).
2nd round: Main arguments only.
3rd round: Rebuttals/counters/additional points.

Rules:
- No abuse of semantics.
(This is standard since I gave definitions)
-No trolling.
- A forfeit is an automatic loss.
-Cite sources.

Sources:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com...

http://www.thefreedictionary.com...

http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
ReeThoughts

Con

I understand why some people would class transgenderism as a mental illness but do not agree with the above statement. I agree to the conditions of this debate.
Debate Round No. 1
Meropenem777

Pro

Thank you for accepting this debate.

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First off, Transgenderism is officially known as Gender dysphoria.

“Gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder (GID) is the formal diagnosis used by psychologists and physicians to describe people who experience significant dysphoria (distress) with the sex and gender they were assigned at birth."

Therefore, transgenderism already meets one criteria of the definition of the provided definition of mental illness( i.e. being known as a disorder).

Now I will prove that transgenderism meets the other criteria for being a mental illness.

One subset under the transgender umbrella terms is known as transsexualism. Transsexuals have the “desire to permanently transition to the gender with which they identify, usually seeking medical assistance (including hormone replacement therapy and other sex reassignment therapies) to help them align their body with their identified sex or gender.”

It is a delusion to believe that you can change your sex by receiving surgery since the surgery is virtually genital mutilation.

The type of surgery varies from being completely castrated to having your genitals inverted inside out. This does not change your sex at all whatsoever because biologically, every chromosome will still be the sex assigned at birth no matter what kind of surgery transsexuals would receive.

The technology to change your body on a chromosomal level simply does not exist and is something that will likely be achieved quite far into the future from now. Classifying transgenderism as a mental illness would be the best course of action for society as it would promote awareness that transgenders need alternative methods of treatment that does not involve genital mutilation or hormone treatments.

The reason why this point is important, is because according to a study, “between 70% and 80% of children who express transgender feelings ‘spontaneously lose those feelings’ over time.”

If transgender children were coaxed into following their passions by having surgery and other bodily treatment, then they would more than likely, feel regret later during their lives for having done so, and so they would suffer as a result of the feelings that made them want to be a transgender person.

The term “suffering” in the context of my argument can be defined as:

“...undergoing pain, distress, or hardship”.

Reflecting back on the definition of a mental illness, “thoughts” and “emotions” are included as being the potential causes for “suffering to himself, herself, or other people."

Note that the definition of suffering includes “distress” just as gender dysphoria includes “distress” in parenthesis above. I took that quote out from the source as it was, without adding those terms in parenthesis to it. Therefore, transgender people feel distress as a result of their “thoughts” and “emotions” for being the gender they want to be. Even if my opponent argues transgenderism is a social construct, these definitions conclude that since transgenders do feel “distress”, they are essentially suffering.

To elaborate further on this point:

“...41% of people who are transgender or gender-nonconforming have attempted suicide sometime in their lives, nearly nine times the national average”.

The thoughts and emotions of the transgender people caused them to adopt an abnormal mindset that made them want to attempt suicide. In other words, transgender people do cause suffering to themselves in response to their thoughts and emotions.

In summation, transgenderism does meet the criteria of being considered a mental illness given that transgenderism is known as a disorder and how the thoughts and emotions of transgender people causes them suffering (e.g. distress).

Sources:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

http://www.cnsnews.com...

http://articles.latimes.com...

https://en.wikipedia.org...

ReeThoughts

Con

Transgenderism already meets one criteria of the definition of the provided definition of mental illness( i.e. being known as a disorder).

Transgenderism definition according to Google:

a state or condition in which a person's identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional ideas of male or female gender.

Another (much more transparent and coherent) definition is:

Transgender- used as an umbrella to describe anyone whose identity or behavior falls outside of stereotypical gender norms. More narrowly defined, it refers to an individual whose gender identity does not match their assigned birth gender. Being transgender does not imply any specific sexual orientation (attraction to people of a specific gender.) Therefore, transgender people may additionally identify with a variety of other sexual identities as well [1]

Transgenderism is not the illness- dysphoria is. Transgenderism is merely the idea that males can feel they do not fit the mould of what is deemed to be 'masculine' at least partially yet still be male nonetheless, and the opposite (women and 'feminine') is also true. Therefore, a man with male genatalia can still be so without describing himself as 'masculine'. He can even say that he feels more in touch with feminity than masculinity, but that doesn't make him any less of a man physically or mentally- i.e he still identifies as a male, as 'assigned' at birth, but is 'effeminate' in mannerisms etc. In simple terms, transgenderism is simply the idea that gender is a spectrum, with feminity and masculinity at opposite ends with which one can map themselves onto, with the majority of people probably not choosing to put themselves too close to either end, meaning they do not feel entire masculine nor entirely feminine.

It is a delusion to believe that you can change your sex by receiving surgery since the surgery is virtually genital mutilation.

Transexuals are well aware it (gender reassignment surgery)doesn't make them a cis male/female. However, biologically, they might argue this, though a minority (apostates) agree they aren't 'real women' in either a biological nor in a post-operative

sense[2].

After all, trans girls won't deny the fact they were born with a penis instead of a vagina and vice versa for trans men. Surgery is simply a way to make them feel more complete as a woman/man despite their obvious previously missing attributes. They know that their chromosomes will never be any different to the chromosomes they had as a baby. But biology doesn't determine whether you're feminine or masculine, only the genatalia you posess at birth. Gender reassignment isn't a solution- transfolk don't stop being trans after gender reassignment. It isn't a cure[3].

I cannot argue that gender reassignment isn't mutilation because it is; the genitals of someone who undergoes the surgery will be disfigured in comparison to what they looked like/acted prior to the operation.

Summary: transgenderism is the concept that one can feel more feminine/masculine while still identifying with their biological sex or without identifying with their biological sex. Dysphoria is the illness associated with people who those who feel that they shouldn't have been born with the sexual organs that they possess. Transgenderism isn't an illness but dysphoria is.

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2.www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2015/12/gender_critical_trans_women_the_apostates_of_the_trans_rights_movement.html

Debate Round No. 2
Meropenem777

Pro

My opponent has violated the terms of the debate several times. I explicitly said the 2nd round was for “main arguments only” and the 3rd round was for “rebuttals/counters/additional points”. Evidence: http://prntscr.com... =http://prntscr.com... ; http://prntscr.com... = http://prntscr.com... . By quoting my main points, this implies my opponent is rebutting/countering my points instead of making a case solely focused on the topic statement. It constitutes as a rebuttal since my opponent attempts to prove the statements I made false instead of the topic statement itself.

Additionally, I explicitly stated “no abuse of semantics” as a rule and yet my opponent attempts to redefine the term “transgenderism” from the definition that I provided. It doesn’t matter how similar the two definitions are as it still constitutes as attempting to replace the definition I had provided.Evidence: http://prntscr.com... .

Therefore, voters are obligated to take these actions as forms of misconduct.
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“Transgenderism is not the illness- dysphoria is.” (Con)

-No, dysphoria is merely a symptom of transgenderism.

The definition of “symptom”:

Symptom: “Any phenomenon or circumstance accompanying something and serving as evidence of it.”

My argument in connecting gender dysphoria as a symptom of transgenderism can be formed into a syllogism:

-Premise 1: Transgender people feel gender dysphoria when they feel the need to be more like the opposite sex.

-Premise 2: Arguably, all transgender people have gender dysphoria elsewise, they would not have become transgender in the first place.

-Conclusion: Since all transgender people have gender dysphoria, it must be a symptom of transgenderism.


Now, I will make a reference to another mental illness: Schizophrenia.


“ Symptoms include:

    • Hallucinations


    • Delusions


    • Thought disorders (unusual or dysfunctional ways of thinking)


    • Movement disorders (agitated body movements)”

-Notice the presence of “disorders” as symptoms of schizophrenia. This implies that a mental illness can include other disorders as “symptoms”. As a reminder, the definition I have provided includes mental illnesses as “...disorders…”. My opponent is correct in pointing out that dysphoria is a mental illness, but is clearly false in thinking that there can only be one mental illness and that mental illnesses cannot be a components of other mental illnesses.


Most of everything in this paragraph: http://prntscr.com... is irrelevant to the debate.

-What should be discussed, is whether or not transgender people have “...thoughts, emotions, or behaviour...so abnormal as to cause suffering to himself, herself, or other people”, as that is in accordance to the definition I have provided for“mental illness”. My opponent has yet to prove that it does not. Rather, my opponent seemed to be attempting to argue that gender is a socially constructed concept. However, even if gender is a socially constructed concept as my opponent argues, it does not matter since if transgenderism actually involves "suffering to himself, herself, or other people…”, then that would mean that transgenderism must be regarded as a mental illness. I’ve already discussed whether or not it causes suffering, and concluded that it does in this segment of my argument: http://prntscr.com... .

-Also, it's not irrelevant for me to discuss how transsexuals often have delusions. Transsexualism is a form of transgenderism, just to a greater extent since they want a sex reassignment. Arguably, delusion is a form of “hardship” since the ill person is resisting what is real or fact, and so constitutes as suffering. So, their thoughts and emotions virtually causes them suffering.

My opponent's arguments are nonsensical.


“Transexuals are well aware it (gender reassignment surgery)doesn't make them a cis male/female.” (Con)


-You can’t make such a generalization as the burden of proof would be on you to prove that they all actually are aware that it doesn’t.

“But biology doesn't determine whether you're feminine or masculine, only the genatalia you posess at birth.” (Con)

-This seems nonsensical. You’re contradicting yourself with statements such as this: “...still identifies as a male, as 'assigned' at birth, but is 'effeminate' in mannerisms” (Con). This is because if genitalia determines whether you’re masculine or feminine, which is what the other statement was implying, then that means a male cannot become more feminine unless he altered his genitals and that is simply not true since for instance, a male could have feminine mannerisms and still not have to alter his genitals in anyway.


“Gender reassignment isn't a solution- transfolk don't stop being trans after gender reassignment. It isn't a cure” (Con)

-This statement also seems nonsensical. I’m almost certain that you meant to say “sex reassignment” because it would be even more nonsensical if you didn’t. I never said it was a “cure”, in fact I said this: http://prntscr.com... . I was referring to sex reassignment as a “treatment” and not a “cure”, there is a distinct difference between the two terms.

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So, how are transgender people suffering?

-Higher risk of suicide.

-Gender dysphoria.

-Genital mutilation.

-Having delusions.

Bottom line: Transgenderism is a mental illness given the definition I have provided for what constitutes as a “mental illness” within the context of this debate.


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Sources:

http://www.nimh.nih.gov...

http://www.dictionary.com...

https://en.wikipedia.org...

ReeThoughts

Con

ReeThoughts forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
No comments have been posted on this debate.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by bballcrook21 1 year ago
bballcrook21
Meropenem777ReeThoughtsTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 1 year ago
dsjpk5
Meropenem777ReeThoughtsTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
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Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: Con broke the rules of the debate by offering rebuttals in the second round, attempting to change the definition of terms, and forfeiting a round. Not only that, but according to the rules, a forfeiture equals an automatic loss.