Trinity Vs Oneness
Debate Rounds (5)
I know that the word trinity can not be found in the bible, but the concept is found...
We find the Trinity in the first page on the Bible. Genesis 1:26 Then God said, Lets US make man in OUR image, according to our likeness: Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea. over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.
What is the number we use to constitute us? At least two right, So therefor we see that there was more than one. If we see a person talking to himself saying let US go.. and there was no one there. We would think he was crazy. So we see here that God was talking to his Son.
Hebrew 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds:
The Father made the worlds by His son. It implies that The Son was present during creation.
If an individual human referred to themselves as more than one then it would not make sense I agree. This however is not referring to a human but to the most awesome being to great for us to contemplate. Some say that this is a writing style in Hebrew to illustrate the greatness of God. The following verse does not back up your point as it clearly identifies the oneness of God.
So God created man in HIS own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Genesis 1:27)
Colossians 1:15 does indeed confirm that Jesus was present during creation but it also states that Jesus was created by God.
'Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature'. Now I understand that this is debatable and ambiguous but so too is Hebrew's 1:2 in identifying Jesus as God.
On your side you have a few ambiguous verses that could possibly subject such an idea of a Trinity but they are indeed ambiguous, few and far between.
The fact that Jesus never claimed to be God, didn't preach that he was God and made numerous unambiguous statements that only the Creator is God completely dismiss anything to the contrary.
Throughout the Bible it is made clear that only the Creator is God. Numbers tells us that God is not a man nor a son of man. If we were to put our supporting evidence on scales then my side would be held firmly to the ground by the sheer weight of scripture.
1."there is no one like Yahweh our God." Exodus 8:10
2."Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35
3.Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39
4."Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!" Deuteronomy 6:4
5.Yahweh is God; there is no one else." 1 Kings 8:60
6."You alone are Yahweh." Nehemiah 9:6
7."Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10
8."I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5
9."I am Yahweh, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18
10."Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Saviour; There is none except Me." Isaiah 45:21
1.'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; " Mark 12:29
2."you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?" John 5:44
3."For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," 1 Timothy 2:5
4."You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19
As far as Colossians 1:15 I would like to ask you this question. If Jesus was created than when was he created because in Colossians 1:16-17 it says that all things were created through him and that he is before all things. So how than can he be before all things if he himself is supposedly a create "thing? And in reference to the verses you sent me. All the verses are correct and are in perfect harmony with Trinitarian theology.
John 10: 30 - "I and my father are one". If you read the verses before this, particularly verse 25 then it is clear that Jesus meant that his purpose is at one with God not that he is literally God - Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.' Jesus stated that he wanted everyone to be at one with God (John 17:21) so that we may all carry out Gods purpose obviously not all actually become Gods ourselves. You need to read the rest of John 10 then you will understand that he does not accept the charge of being God, he denies it.
Colossians 1:15 denies that Jesus is God because it states that he is the 'image' of God, not that he is God himself. It refers to him (not uniquely I must add) as the firstborn. It's illogical to assume that he can also be the Creator that is referred to in the following verse.
None of the verses that I sent you give any mention of God being made up of three parts so how do any of them support the Trinity?
Thomas was disbelieving. He thought it Impossible that Jesus had come back from the dead . After encontering Jesus alive with holes in his hands and feet he said "My Lord!, my God!". This is an understandable reaction from Thomas. Take it in the context as it was written, he was shocked and amazed that Jesus was alive. We have no reason the think that he literally thought that Jesus was God.
Only the Creator is God. This is one of the main themes throughout the Bible and is reinforced by Jesus.
"Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:"
The scribe also knew his scriptures well, he knew there is only one God and there is none other than he. Isaiah 45:5 makes it clear for all to understand;
"I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." .
Also if you look at an interline it literally says "THE LORD OF ME AND THE GOD OF ME"""the definite article "THE" is used before God so in this context it"s making an definite reference to "The God"
Plus your just giving me your opinion not proof, I have never read anywhere in the bible or in ancient literature of a person making an exclamation remark like "my Lord AND my God""". Especially the and part, does that sound like a word that someone naturally sticks in there when they make an explanation remark? If, if, ".IF"". Thomas wanted to call Jesus his LORD and his God, How could he have word it?
When you read the text carefully it says" Thomas said TOHIM"." So if he is merely making and explanation remark what is he saying to him? Even if Tomas's comment were an exclamation remark, would you agree that it is still directed at someone called God? If not then would you say Tomas's is making some form of a blasphemous statement by uttering "God"
Notice psalms 35:23 and revelation 4:11, do these sound like exclamation remarks? Even if they are, do they stop having a referent? No. So did Tomas's comment have a referent or is he referent to God in vain? ALSO do not forget that the text linguistically says that Tomas SAID TO HIM.....to Jesus ...what did he say TO Jesus?????? Thank you for your time. If you want to continue with this subject please let me know. =514; God Bless you!!!!
To find Biblical support for this view Matthew 16:23 describes Jesus talking directly to Peter whilst actually addressing Satan.
' But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.'
Peter had temporarily and understandably been against what Jesus was saying. In that instance he was not representing God and God's will but mans selfish will and therefore Satan. This should give the reader no reason to now believe that Jesus is literally calling Peter Satan or that Peter is one part of a Satanic trinity.
If it is the case that Thomas was speaking to Jesus solely then is it conclusive that what he said can only possibly be translated as Thomas clearly identifying Jesus as God? The Greek word used in this verse is 'theos'. Is theos only ever used in reference to God? If it was then it would certainly limit the possible interpretations of what Thomas meant by what he said but according to Johns documentation of what Jesus said in an earlier chapter in his Gospel this is not the case.
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (John 10:34-36)
Here Jesus himself shows us that theos ( used in its plural form, theoi/gods) can and is justifiably given to not only the one true God but also Gods representatives. With this in mind it is completely plausible that Thomas used this term to address the resurrected Jesus as his master and one that truly represents God.
The fact that it is prefixed with 'ho' (the) rendering it a definite article does in now way conclusively prove that it could have only been in reference to the one and only true God because 1 Samuel 2:30 demonstrates that a man (King David) can be referred to as 'the God' and not literally mean that the man is literally God.
As you can see both of my explanations (although you may not agree with them) are perfectly plausible. If we boil this situation down to the fundamentals then we have just two simple possibilities;
A) Thomas did not believe that Jesus had been resurrected and upon encountering him he then believed that he was resurrected.
B) Thomas did not believe that Jesus had been resurrected and upon encountering him he then believed that he was God.
Situation B is an illogical interpretation for many reasons;
There is no evidence from the gospel accounts that Jesus" disciples believed that he was God.
Jesus did not preach that he was God.
From beginning to end the Bible is explicit that man cannot be God and that no one has ever seen God.
I am sure that you will dissagree with at least two of my above points and it is a shame that I you will not challenge me on all of the points that I have made above. Therefore it would be a pleasure to continue the debate of the divinity of Christ with you further.
Many thanks for your time and all of your responses have been greatly appreciated.
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