The Instigator
Zidane
Pro (for)
The Contender
princearchitect
Con (against)

Trinity is not logical and biblical

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Voting Style: Open Point System: Select Winner
Started: 7/30/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 11 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 481 times Debate No: 103342
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (9)
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Zidane

Pro

Some of my 'old' debates that I would like to recommend my opponent to read first, just in case some kind of argument had been refuted by me before :
1st debate : http://www.debate.org...
2nd debate : http://www.debate.org...
3rd debate : http://www.debate.org...

To prove that God does not exist as trinity, I will give you some biblical verses that will refute trinity. Here it goes (all are NRSV) :

+ Jesus have a God (Please recognize the use of the word 'our')
- "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:" (Deuteronomy 6:4)
- "Jesus answered, "The first is, "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one;" (Mark 12:29)
"Then the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that "he is one, and besides him there is no other";" (Mark 12:32), confirming Mark 12:29 and the one God.
"When Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." After that no one dared to ask him any question" (Mark 12:34), Jesus confirm the confirmation of the 'scribe'.

+ Jesus was sent by God (meaning he is a messenger)
- "And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." (John 17:3)
- "I glorified you on earth by finishing the work that you gave me to do." (John 17:4)

And a logical question for my opponent :
- If Jesus was sent, how come he is the sender?
- If the Father is God, the Word is God, and the Spirit is God, while they're distinct from each other (they even 'talk to/send' one another) why only one God?
- If Jesus was fully man and fully God, wasn't he supposed to inherit 100% of man's nature and 100% of God's nature?
Those three questions, I hope that my opponent will answer them, along with his/her/their opening statement.

Very simple rules :
Round 1 : Opening statement and Rebuttal
Round 2-4 : Rebuttal (again)
Round 5 : Rebuttal and Closing Statement (to be continued if no one's satisfied)

Please refute, enjoy, and Thank you for your time.
princearchitect

Con

I would like to thank my opponent (Pro) Zidane for this debate, I hope that this debate will be a spirited and fruitful debate.
The title of this debate is "Trinity is not logical and Biblical", after reviewing my opponents previous debates, I have not seen (at least to my satisfaction) his/her arguments had refuted that the Trinity is not logical or Biblical.

With that being said, I will be arguing that the Trinity is logical and Biblical by not only presenting Biblical evidence that supports the Trinity but also scientific evidence that the concept of the Trinity is interwoven in the fabrics of our everyday lives. First, let me present some basic scriptures that support the Trinity is Biblical, for the sake of understanding the concept Trinity comes from the root (Tri) meaning three and (unity) meaning one, I will also be using the King James Bible Translation for all Biblical verses. 1 John 5:7King James Version (KJV)

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

We can clearly see that 1 John 5:7 clearly teaches that the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost bear record in heaven, and these three are one.

We even have scriptural evidence that the Trinity was written as a prophecy before Jesus Christ was born through the loins of the Virgin Mary in the book of Isaiah 9:6,
Isaiah 9:6King James Version (KJV)

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 9:6 states "For unto us a child is born", unto us a son is given (foretelling the birth of Jesus Christ), and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Indicating that this child that was born, this son that was given is the mighty God, The everlasting Father, and the Prince of Peace.

Now let us consider a conversation that Jesus himself had with a disciple named Philip,
John 14:9-11King James Version (KJV)

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Jesus himself told Philip he that hath seen me hath seen the Father denoting the oneness of the Father and the Son because Philip was looking at it from a natural perspective that in his mind he kept hearing Jesus talk about the Father but didn't observe the Father anywhere in there company. But Jesus clarified to Philip he that hate seen me hath seen the Father once again denoting the oneness of the Father and the Son.

Let us also not forget John 10:30,
John 10:30King James Version (KJV)

30 I and my Father are one.

I could take my opening statement and rebuttal in many directions and I have seen my opponent's three logical questions that I reserve the right to answer in the upcoming rounds of this debate, I will also show examples of the Trinity scientifically.

I look forward to reading my opponent's response to these scriptures that support the scriptural teachings of the Trinity in which he/she must tear down each verse and in its place present rebuttals and arguments that show the Trinity is not logical and Biblical.

Once again, I thank my opponent for this debate and I look forward to his/her argument.

Source: https://www.biblegateway.com...
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Debate Round No. 5
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Zidane 11 months ago
Zidane
First of all, to everyone out there I'm deeply sorry to all of you people, since I forgot to answer and respond the debate and comments for debate, and for my learning, it seems like I must spare more time if I was to put my commitment in debate.org .

@FollowerofChrist1955

"just opinions" I'm sorry, but it came from my critical thinking, and if you don't like it, just debate me, simple. Just like you said, debate is about discussing and meeting opposing arguments, so why not?

"Your opposing a denominational view with regard too Gods word. Your outlook is FLAWED, by way of reason. You are to do as God tells you, that very much means your to study the scriptures to determine truth, asking guidance of God ... not man. That's why you are here with misperceptions. You let some yahoo tell you the WORD Trinity, isn't in the Bible? Yet, neither is Rapture, nor BIBLE from THAT prospective. That's why your wrong, the Trinity certainly is in the Bible. And one need only study it in desire to k ow its truths, and not merely to coincide with ones own beliefs taught to them by denominations.
So go to scripture and LEARN HOW to tell the difference by asking God the questions instead of pastors, preachers, commentaries. Ask your questions to God in prayer then continue your studies, God will SHOW you the answer within your study. Stop asking people cause your just going to get opinions. Study for yourself!"
1. I don't use yahoo.
2. I don't care whether the word trinity is in the bible or not, as long as Jesus distinct himself from God, he is not a God.
3. I MUST ask the people, because God created lots of human being not to be individualist, but to learn from each other.
4. I always use the kjv, rsv, niv, or nrsv for the bible, so to be honest I'm learning directly from your sources, so why should I tell the difference out of those bible?
5. I studied for myself, and that is the reason I'm engaging the public, to find another thinking and interpretation.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 11 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Zidane;
Clearly you remain ignorant of subject matter. The is only one view ... none of them are yours, mine and ours. That's the point your to immature to understand, and precisely WHY you are in such a state of disarray, confusion, and quandary. Your BIBLICALLY ILLITERATE.

Sadly you can't fix that with a debate? Do you even KNOW WHAT a debate is?

de"bate
1.
a formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward.

Are you opposing God? No I don't think so. Your opposing a denominational view with regard too Gods word. Your outlook is FLAWED, by way of reason. You are to do as God tells you, that very much means your to study the scriptures to determine truth, asking guidance of God ... not man. That's why you are here with misperceptions. You let some yahoo tell you the WORD Trinity, isn't in the Bible? Yet, neither is Rapture, nor BIBLE from THAT prospective. That's why your wrong, the Trinity certainly is in the Bible. And one need only study it in desire to k ow its truths, and not merely to coincide with ones own beliefs taught to them by denominations.

So go to scripture and LEARN HOW to tell the difference by asking God the questions instead of pastors, preachers, commentaries. Ask your questions to God in prayer then continue your studies, God will SHOW you the answer within your study. Stop asking people cause your just going to get opinions. Study for yourself!
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 11 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Zidane
Nice try Child. But you must KNOW the subject matter to debate upon. Otherwise..... just opinions. Opinions are like rearends, everyone has one and most are full of crap. Especially, when only what the Child debates on is based on sole opinion ... like in your case. Because you THINK your right, is the only reason you wish to debate it.

The problem .... your not debating scripture, your debating opinion.
Answer .... you don't need to debate anyone, you just need to die to yourself and your opinions, and God Himself, will correct the perversion of the Word, your learning from Men within you denomination.

See .... easy.
Posted by Zidane 11 months ago
Zidane
@FollowerofChrist1955
So you're not going to accept my debate challenge? Then debate.org has uselessly created the debate platform, since you keep talking in the comment section.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 11 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Not a Disciple-
Luke 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Luke 14:21
And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple.

Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

You have not died to the self ... you believe What YOU BELIEVE, not what God IS? You accept some scripture but deny others, that's no belief IN God ... that's believing in yourself? We're that NOT SO? You never would question the truth of God. You are a Denomination .... nothing more? There are 33,820+ of you out there!

I can help you .... but you must complete the FIRST STEP before you will learn to mature. You must die to yourself ... or you'll never grow. Because you will chase you will, your belief, your rights, your wants. That must be released. You must understand that God IS WHO He is, and not what you want to BELIEVE He is!

Does the fact that your not saved because your Wrong about scripture? No
Salvation is a free gift of God, you cannot lose that, because you did NOT EARN it in the first place. It's a GIFT.

But here's what you don't KNOW. Rewards? Inheritance? Not free .... but EARNED.

1 Corinthians 3 describes this.

Christian SAVED ONLY
Christian SAVED and receives Reward
Christian SAVED and receives Reward and inheritance!

Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

No OVERCOME, no sit in Throne. Overcome What? SELF!

So In order ... Carnal Christian- Lived in the World. No obedience = SAVED but only as one HAVING gone through the FLAMES.

carnal Christian, Lived in the World but was obedient, but never achieved dying to self= SAVED + Rewards

Disciple time of Christ- Died to self- SAVED+ Reward+ earned right to sit in Christ Throne.
Not a disciple? No Throne!
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 11 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
You don't understand? Your NOT a Disciple ... and that's why your not Biblically literate, nor judging by your discussion are you likely too be anytime soon. You've too far to still go, before you can fully understand, and time is not on your side. I know, I know, you'll want to argue the point ... but rather than arguing, just let me SHOW you, that your not? Okay?

First ... I'm speaking of God ... your speaking of YOU.
second .... I'm speaking Gods word .... your speaking YOURS.
third I speak as a Disciple .... you ARE NOT a disciple.
Fourth, I am taught of God ... you are taught of Man.
Fifth, I am lead of the Spirit.... you are lead of SELF.

proof/evidence
Deuteronomy 4:2, Deuteronomy 12:32, Revelation 22:18
2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

you read and study OUTSIDE the Holy Scriptures. Believing Mans interpretations of scripture. Thus YOU ARE IN VIOLATION of this scripture. Scripture interprets scripture, NOT Man. It is there you learned the nonsense, you speak, not of scripture.but of Mans commentary.

Proof/evidence
John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Philippians 3:15
All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.

Who will make clear too you? Commentary, pastor? Priest, Counselor, Church? NO
God, will make known.

2 Peter 1
20"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet"s own interpretation of things.21"For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

This says YOU WILL NOT INTERPRET Gods Word of yourself. That means Man.
Posted by Zidane 11 months ago
Zidane
@philochristos
I would like to do it, but from my experience, small rounds left me little information, and no agreement was met. My objective is at least me and my opponent agree at least on one minor point. But if you are willing to stop the debate at round 3 or 4, just make a closing statement, so I will also close the debate. My debate is simple, and demand less.

@FollowerofChrist1955
Perhaps you are willing to be my debate opponent? There, perhaps, I will refute you. Thank you.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 11 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Psalms 2
The father speaks, the Son, speaks, the spirit speaks.
Course, since you serve the god of Self ... that might NOT be relevant to you. Because your of a human mentality, as if since the word RAPTURE isn't in the Bible ... it is not true either.

To prove this point .... the word BIBLE is ALSO NOT in the Bible.

You argue predicated on a WORD appearing IN the Scriptures and not on the truth of scripture, therefore you serve the god of SELF. You accept only some scripture while not accepting others. This proves by your action, you are lead by your thinking, not by Gods word, nor Thoughts. This is also why you are spoken of here:

Hebrews 5:12
In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!

And here:
Ephesians 4:14
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.

And here:
Matthew 15:9
in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.""

And lastly here:

Psalm 1
4 Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [a]miracles?" 23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

This shows two already, The Father is mentioned and Christ ... who is being CALLED WHAT?
Right ..... Lord, Lord! that alone negates your contention!
Posted by philochristos 11 months ago
philochristos
I would be tempted to take this debate, but you'd have to shorten it to three rounds. People usually get bored with anything longer than that because it begins to get repetitive.
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