The Instigator
EGJ
Pro (for)
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The Contender
Strategery
Con (against)
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Trump vs. The Pope...who is guilty?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/19/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 514 times Debate No: 86879
Debate Rounds (5)
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EGJ

Pro

Trump vs. the Pope...who is guilty?


I apologies for the tricky part in my question, since judging others is against Biblical teaching, Matthew 7:1, “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.”

So, let me start with the one I considered the victim (D. Trump). I have a great respect for the Pope, and I admire his humility, a true Christ like personality, and that is what he should have said about Trump, instead of saying that Trump is not a Christian, he should say, Trump’s talk or actions are not Christ like.

On the other hand, D. Trump has done an unprecedented job in displaying the hypocrisy and dishonesty of group of politicians or media outlets, however, he, himself, has shown also a degree of hypocrisy; while he objected the Pope calling himnot Christian”, he was questioning Ted Cruz’s Christianity?.

The hypocrisy did not stop there, while he is hitting hard on Mexicans, he never spoke about the other side of the coin, i.e., those who hire them as cheap and hardworking labors and not taking a patriotic stand by refusing to hire them and break the laws.

Here, the Bible comes alive and provides a solution for such a complex problem; obviously politicians do not know that, or cannot grasp it, since the Bible is not their main frame of reference in most cases.

The solution according to the Bible:

From Exodus 22:21, we learn: “Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt.” Here, God establishes a principle on how to treat foreigners, keep in mind also; Americans in general, came to America as immigrants (foreigners).

And in Deuteronomy 23:7-8 , we learn, “The third generation of children born to them may enter the assembly of the LORD.”, God provides here guide lines on how to allow foreigners to be integrated in the nation (Mexicans in this case). In other words, new laws can be drafted to allow people (Mexicans or others) who spent a certain period of time, have a clean record and have been working as “cheap labor” to go through a process allows them to become citizens.

Others who spent less time can be asked to leave and then apply form outside, this is not a harsh treatment, since there are many immigrants who had to come before their spouses or families and had to wait for years before the process of bringing their loved ones was completed. Obviously the ones with bad records or the criminals should be treated in accordance with the law of the land.

It is now your turn…


Strategery

Con

Trump is guilty because, in accordance to Christ's promises to St. Peter, the Pope is infallible.

Papal infallibility of course, means more than exemption from actual error; it means exemption from the POSSIBILITY of error (http://www.newadvent.org...).

So whereas Pope Francis in exercise of his holy office as leader and Shepard of all the Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority where he defines church doctrine concerning faith and morals to be held true by all the church, and whereas St. Peter is declared to be the first Bishop of Rome, Mr. Donald J. Trump is declared guilty and not a true Christian.
Debate Round No. 1
EGJ

Pro


Understanding the Pope Authority and sphere of influence:


There were only twelve people who were called apostles, one significant attribute of the apostle is the fact that he has seen Lord Jesus face to face and received a direct message from him. However, those apostles remain human like the rest of us, sometimes, they have a different approach to a certain issue, where, for example, apostle Paul had a different point of view than Peter regarding a minor issue of practice, which is not of a doctrine or theology.


This can be found in Galatians 2:11 “But when Peter came to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed.”, nevertheless those Godly apostles disagreed in respect and love (totally opposite to what we see from politicians), as you can observe from verses written by the apostle Peter in reference to Paul in 2 Peter 3:15, “Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.”


The current Pope (Francis) has a long history of being humble and carrying for the poor portraying a true and practical reflection of his Lord J. Christ, but he is not “infallible”, this adjective belongs only to God.


While it appears that what the Pope meant to say is Trump’s words or attitude do not sound Christlike, the choice of words in his statement on the Airplane did not convey clearly his message. Considering this man track record, I believe that we need to take 100 steps back before jumping to criticize him.


Separation of morality and social systems


As was mentioned in my post, the Bible teaches us in Exodus 22:21 “Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt.”


The Pope needed to explain the inextricable relationship between how to treat foreigners (undocumented immigrants) and the sovereignty and security of a nation. Our moral values guide our social and judicial systems and cannot be separated, an official, in his/her way to the office, would not make a point to remember to pick up their watch, wallet, keys, etc., but, on the other hand, to make sure that they leave their moral values behind, while they are in their way to a Gov. office?


Therefore, the teaching of morality by Pope Francis or any other honest and Godly person is essential to society.


As I mentioned in my post, the Bible provides us with guidelines in dealing with this complex issue of illegal immigrants, in Deuteronomy 23:7-8, we read, “The third generation of children born to them may enter the assembly of the LORD.”


Accordingly, a person who spent a certain number of years (this number has to be decided by law's experts) working for minimum wages and has a clear record, in a sense, this person has paid (indirectly) his/her share of taxes, since the employer in this case has made more money by paying minimum wages (possibly, even less wages), thus the employer (if he/she was honest in reporting their income, will be (indirectly) paying taxes on behalf of this undocumented immigrant.


Consequently, for that group of undocumented immigrants, a pass to citizenship can be structured.


What would work better than a wall to prevent this problem from reoccurring would be citizens taking a patriotic stand and refusing to hire illegal people and thus preserving the law, the sovereignty and the security of the nation.


Strategery

Con

"There were only twelve people who were called apostles... however, those apostles remain human like the rest of us."

Any yet only one apostle, and frankly, only one person in the world was ever given the keys to heaven.

"I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." - Matthew 16

So whereas Peter was the first Pope, and by virtue of Christ giving up the keys to heaven to St Peter, the Pope has full and undisputed power over all religious doctrine, including who gets to heaven, and who is and who is and is not a Christian.

"The Pope needed to explain the inextricable relationship between how to treat foreigners."

The Pope doesn't need to explain anything. His judement over religious beliefs is immune from the possibility of error due to Papal infalibility and by controlling the keys to heaven.

Therefore when asked who is correct between Donald J. Trump and the Pope (over religious matters) the obvious answer is the Pope.
Debate Round No. 2
EGJ

Pro

When pride and the need to feel better than other become a motive, the truth is completely blocked. How ironic!, while Pope Francis’ life presents an outstanding example of humility in our generation, you are rising to defend him on the bases of pride, arrogance and superiority.

An utter nonsense statement:

Strategery wrote, Quote:

So whereas Peter was the first Pope, and by virtue of Christ giving up the keys to heaven to St Peter, the Pope has full and undisputed power over all religious doctrine, including who gets to heaven, and who is and who is and is not a Christian”

If this is the case, why did not the Lord Christ laid off the rest of the Apostles and send them home, since Peter now is the only one has the power over all religious doctrine, including who gets to heaven, and who is not a Christian?

What exactly did the Lord Christ meant by “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven…”

First, notice the accuracy of the statement, he said, “I will give you the keys” not the key, why is this important?

The key of office, the key of the gates and of the treasure, was a recognised symbol to the Jews. In the highest sense that key of the house of David belonged to Christ Himself as the King. It was He who opened and none could shut, who shut and none could open (Revelation 3:7).

A key is used to open the door so you can get in; Peter being the chief Apostle was the first to open doors (using keys) to the whole world.

1- Peter explained to the Jews that their King Jesus is on the throne, and that in Him and in all who believe in Him, the Kingdom of Heaven has arrived (Acts 2:30-36). Peter indicates later that he knows this message will be spread further to those who are afar off, to whomever God may call (Acts 2:39).

2- Peter and John went to Samaria to use the keys of the kingdom to open the gates of hell which imprison the Samaritans, in Acts 8:17 Peter laid hands on them so that they also receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

3- Opening the door to the gentile

There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always (Caesarea was a predominately Roman city on the shores of the Mediterranean).

About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius!” And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, “What is it, lord?” So he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God. Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter. He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He will tell you what you must do.”, Acts 10.

Now, if your claim about “Papal infallibility” is a valid claim, then you need to rise up and defend the fact that during the history of the church there were wicked and ungodly Pops acting against God's truth, such as:

Pope Stephen VI: had his predecessor exhumed, tried, de-fingered, and thrown to the river.

Pope Benedict IX: the Pope who sold the papacy.

Pope Sergius III: ordered the murder of another pope and started the "pornocracy".

Pope John XII: raped female pilgrims and invoked pagan gods.

Pope Leo X: sold indulgences, killed cardinals.

Pope John XV: split the church's finances among his relatives.

Reference: http://www.oddee.com...

Strategery

Con

while Pope Francis’ life presents an outstanding example of humility in our generation, you are rising to defend him on the bases of pride, arrogance and superiority.

Nope. I've only quoted what Christ promised to St. Peter.

I of course did not write the bible or make up religious doctrine.

If this is the case, why did not the Lord Christ laid off the rest of the Apostles and send them home, since Peter now is the only one has the power over all religious doctrine,

Peter was always the leader to the Apostles, just like the Pope is the leader to the Council of Cardinals. So while today the Pope plays a leadership role, and gets to decide the ultimate direction of the Catholic Church, the cardinals help advise the Pope and assist him in managing the day to day operations.

However, its still St. Peter who was singled out to be the leader of the apostles;

When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon,son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” 16 He said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him,“Tend my sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep. John 21:15-17


In the highest sense that key of the house of David belonged to Christ Himself as the King

But Christ gave the keys of heaven to St. Peter. So while belief in Christ may be the "key" to getting into heaven, its actually the Pope (with the physical keys) who leads them there.

1- Peter explained to the Jews
2- Peter and John went to Samaria to use the keys
3- Opening the door to the gentile

^^Proving my point. Its the leadership of the Pope who leads Christians into heaven.

Now, if your claim about “Papal infallibility” is a valid claim, then you need to rise up and defend the fact that during the history of the church there were wicked and ungodly Pops acting against God's truth,

Nope, because accroding to religious doctrine, God is always right, where the holy spirit itself appoints the Popes and declares them to be infaliible.

I therefore have nothing to defend. You just simply have a disagreement with God, the holy spirit, and some of his Popes.





Debate Round No. 3
EGJ

Pro


Thank you for your reply. Allow me to say that due to the fact that we all, have been given one shot at life, it is therefore, my sincere intention to dialog with people for the purpose of finding the truth, more than just winning a debate. Standing before God that day saying” I am a Catholic or evangelical, etc., and as you know Lord there are billions of us, so please let me in, I know that my chances would be 0.000.


I have a feeling that you are of the same mind, so, let me say, if it was God’s true will, as you mentioned earlier, “by virtue of Christ giving up the keys to heaven to St Peter, the Pope has full and undisputed power over all religious doctrine, including who gets to heaven, and who is and who is and is not a Christian.”, then I will say: let his well be done.


However, the other statement you made, saying, “the Pope (with the physical keys) who leads them there.” is more reasonable, because leading is quite different from deciding who goes to heaven.


When we set aside any weak desire to feel better than others based on the religion we believe in, we develop a neutral mind capable of finding and learning the truth. Therefore I would like to share two important points in search for the truth:


1- We must consider every word mentioned in the Bible on a specific subject in order to form a wholesome perspective, for example, in your previous post, it was mentioned “only one person in the world was ever given the keys to heaven, later: But Christ gave the keys of heaven to St. Peter.”, however, from John 20:23, we learn that this power was afterwards bestowed on Peter and the rest of the apostles, John 20:20-23, “The disciples were very happy when they saw the Lord. 21. Again Jesus said, "May peace be with you! The Father has sent me. So now I am sending you. 22. He then breathed on them. He said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23. If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."


2- We need to ask ourselves this question: Are there any danger in the doctrine of St. Peter has full and undisputed power over all religious doctrine, including who gets to heaven?


Aside from the fact that I demonstrated John 20:20-23 disputes this doctrine, the history of the church has shown us that, unfortunately, there has been ungodly Pops who took advantage of this doctrine and abused many people under the name of religion.


Also, as I mentioned in my previous reply: If this is the case, why did not the Lord Christ lay off the rest of the Apostles and send them home, since Peter now is the only one has the power over all religious doctrine, including who gets to heaven, and who is not a Christian?


What power or message is left for those eleven Apostles to deliver?


The fact of history tells us that without the work, effort and the ultimate sacrifice of life by all those Apostles (with the exception of John); Christianity would not be able to reach the entire world. Perhaps, if it was all dependent on St. Peter alone, his death could have marked the end of this religion.


1- Last point, again, from John 20:21-23, “The Father has sent me. So now I am sending you. 22. He then breathed on them. He said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23. If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”


Have you realized also that the focus of the conversation was only on one godly man (St. Peter). This is one of the devil’s tactics to divert the attention from God and Lord Christ, and the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives as believers to get people to hang their faith on one man, that man (St. Peter) has shown humility and admitted his weakness as a human when he said to the Lord “Depart from me, Lord, for I am a sinful man.” (Luke 5:8).


Strategery

Con


However, the other statement you made, saying, “the Pope (with the physical keys) who leads them there.” is more reasonable, because leading is quite different from deciding who goes to heaven.


Nope. I did not contradict myself.


Leaders are decision makers, and Christ has told Peter in Matthew 16 that what he says on earth “will also be be bound in heaven,” and whatever” you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."


The Pope therefore (by virtue of divine right) can decide who gets to heaven and who is in fact a Christian.


I of course, again, did not write the bible or make up religious doctrine.


When we set aside any weak desire to feel better than others based on the religion we believe in, we develop a neutral mind capable of finding and learning the truth.


Unfortunately, in the search for truth, it doesn’t matter we believe. God is always right. There is our side and there is his. It is for true believers therefore, to always choose to be on God’s side.


We must consider every word mentioned in the Bible on a specific subject in order to form a wholesome perspective.


No because ultimate interpretation of the Bible is reserved to the Pope, where he alone decides what is accepted as formal beliefs in the Catholic Church (see again Matthew 16 for the origins of papal supremacy via St. Peter).


Are there any danger in the doctrine of St. Peter has full and undisputed power over all religious doctrine, including who gets to heaven?


No because the pope is infallible.


Infallibility again, means that the pope is immune to the possibility of error when it comes to decisions pertaining to religious doctrine.


the history of the church has shown us that, unfortunately, there has been ungodly Pops who took advantage of this doctrine and abused many people under the name of religion.


Not necessarily, because according to religious doctrine, the church is also infallible.


According to the ecumenical councils, the holy spirit preserves the Church from errors that would corrupt its essential doctrines. This is not to say that the church is incapable of sin, but it does mean that its core teachings are immune to error. (https://en.wikipedia.org...).


What power or message is left for those eleven Apostles to deliver?


Hey, don’t look at me! I’ve only ever been saying that God specifically picked Peter to be the leader of the Church.


Have you realized also that the focus of the conversation was only on one godly man (St. Peter). This is one of the devil’s tactics to divert the attention from God.


This is absurd. I’ve quoted several biblical passages where it is mentioned by Christ that Peter and the Popes possess the keys to heaven and it is there job to be the Shepard of god’s flock. Following the Popes, according to scripture, is how Christians can be led to heaven.


(St. Peter) has shown humility and admitted his weakness as a human


Doesn’t matter. Peter was picked by Christ to be the first Pope and the leader of his Church. Whatever god says of course, makes it right.


So again, when it comes to Trump vs. The Pope, over a religious matter, the Pope will always, always be right.


Deus vult.


Debate Round No. 4
EGJ

Pro

It appears that the focal point of the debate has come now down to your claim that, “Peter and the Popes possess the keys to heaven… The Pope therefore (by virtue of divine right) can decide who gets to heaven and who is in fact a Christian.”

So, let me ask this question, if there is someone lives in a remote part of the world where communication is scarce, how would she/he be able to know for sure if they are Christian? And how would they know for sure that they are going to heaven?, to make the question more ludicrous, have you contacted the Pope yourself to find out?, there are over three billions people in the world today claim to be Christians, how would the Popo be able to meet all of them to let them know if they are going to heaven or not? Or should they spend the rest of their lives in doubt and fear?

Infallibility of the Pope is a manmade fallacy:

It became official dogma in 1870, not the year St. Peter went to heaven.

I mentioned to you that I am not interested in winning a debate more than knowing the truth; however, you went ahead and declared defeat providing an argument full of flaws, almost absurd and preposterous, let us continue:

You said: “ultimate interpretation of the Bible is reserved to the Pope, where he alone decides what is accepted as formal beliefs in the Catholic.”

If this is the case, why did God allow St. Paul to write most the New Testament and not St. Peter?

In round 4 you mentioned: “Not necessarily, because according to religious doctrine, the church is also infallible.” However, the undeniable history tells us about the financial corruption in the Catholic Church, from running on donations to becoming an international holding company, the Catholic Church's financial past is littered with secrets. So much that author Gerald Posner wrote hundreds of pages chronicling the institution's financial scandals in his new book, God's Bankers.

The moral corruption:

From 590 to 1517, the Roman Church dominated the western world. The Roman Catholic Church controlled religion, philosophy, morals, politics, art and education. The Roman Catholic Church was theologically sick and its theology led to brutal corruptions.

Our generation has witnessed many cases of crimes with children sexual abuse and subsequent cover-ups committed by Catholic priests, nuns, and members of Roman Catholic orders.

The Council of Hippo sanctioned 27 books for the New Testament, four years later the Council of Cartage confirmed the same 27 books as the authoritative Scriptures of the Church, however, the Church actually discouraged the populace from reading the Bible on their own.

Have you taken time to study your Bible?, if so, you must know that there are certain verses in the Bible so clear and straight forward that do not need interpretation as in John 20:22, “22. He then breathed on them. He said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23. If you [plural] forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

"Deus vult" (Classical Latin) or Dieu le veut (French), Deus lo vult or Deus lo volt (catalan), which means: “God wills it”, the question remains, which God? Is him the true one of the true and original Bible, or the manmade one by corrupted elements of the Catholic Church throughout its long history on earth?

How could you then waste a magnificent heaven waiting for true followers of Lord Christ by following false teaching and false hope? It is the word of God and the Holy Spirit who would tell you, and show you how to get to heaven, of course God can use many human tools for this purpose.

Finally I reiterate: Pope Francis life history declares that he has a christlike spirt.

Strategery

Con


It appears that the focal point of the debate has come now down to your claim that, “Peter and the Popes possess the keys to heaven… The Pope therefore (by virtue of divine right) can decide who gets to heaven and who is in fact a Christian.”


Pretty much. “Divine right” meaning scripture, the bible, dogma, doctrine, and everything else a Christian is supposed to believe.


So, let me ask this question, if there is someone lives in a remote part of the world where communication is scarce, how would she/he be able to know for sure if they are Christian?


If you’re a Christian, you believe everyone’s soul was created by God (via scripture). In the case of our remote amazon indigenous tribes; they are still subjugated to the Christian God but are not aware of his presence or church.


The Pope again, also has some say in determining the beliefs for all Christians, whether people actually choose to agree with him or not.


Infallibility of the Pope is a manmade fallacy:


I did not make up Papal infallibility, I don’t agree with it, and it probably makes no logical sense at all, however, if you believe in the Christian Bible and are a follower of God, then that is what you have to believe. Scripture declared it through Matthew 16.


It became official dogma in 1870, not the year St. Peter went to heaven.


You’re claim it became “official” doctrine in 1870 is correct. However, the practice and belief has “unofficially” existed since the time of St. Peter.


If this is the case, why did God allow St. Paul to write most the New Testament and not St. Peter?


Deus Vult. Who are we to tell the Lord what to do?


However, the undeniable history tells us about the financial corruption in the Catholic Church


Again, Deus Vult.


God has proclaimed that the core teachings of his church (through scripture) are infallible.


The moral corruption:


False due to established doctrines of Church and Papal infallibility that all Christians are forced to believe.


Finally I reiterate: Pope Francis life history declares that he has a christlike spirt.


Which only confirms why he is right and Trump is wrong.


God is always right.


Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by jglass841 1 year ago
jglass841
Does it matter if a politician adheres to Christianity?
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