The Instigator
productofrakim
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
Adam2isback
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

Tupac is the greatest rapper of all time

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
productofrakim
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/15/2016 Category: Music
Updated: 7 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 455 times Debate No: 93457
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (2)
Votes (1)

 

productofrakim

Con

I take the position that tupac is beyond a doubt not the best rapper or even a top tier rapper IMO, however I will be supporting the case that tupac is not the best rapper of all time or even top 10.

First round for acceptance. 2nd for opening arguments, and 3rd for counter arguments. Final round can just be final thoughts.
Adam2isback

Pro

I accept bro (and, by the way, since we're talking a black subject, no "bro" is black or white slang).
Debate Round No. 1
productofrakim

Con

Tupac was certainly not the greatest rapper ever since when you look at the basic elements of emceeing and of rap
Technical lyrical ability
Flow
Storytelling
Delivery
Socially Conscious/content
Quotables/punchlines
Ability to Battle/battle bars
Originality
Discography

He is not top tier in any of them with the exception of socially conscious/content (even though his content was so hypocritical and often contradicted himself) , and delivery (which he is not the best at).
If you look at technical lyrical ability pac was extremely simple and below average. Sure there are quote a few verses where he steps it up with some internals, multis, assonance, and etc... However, overall from an objective point of view he was below avergae and quite weak in this aspect. Rap metrics is a site which measures rhyme desnities of rappers body of work and by using state of the art analysis software, can objectively quantify rappers performance in some other rap categories like speed, vocab variety, word length, etc. the same way we come up with statistics for sports. When talking about how tupac stacks up to other big rappers they had this to say:

"How does he stack up against the other heavy-hitters (Jay, Nas and Big) statistically?
First and foremost, he doesn"t rhyme as well. This is a simple fact. Not that Big/Jay/Nas are extremely similar rhyming-wise with Tupac a few steps below:

https://rapmetrics.files.wordpress.com...

Tupac, at a rhyme density score of 0.235 is a notch below BIG, Jay and Nas who scored at 0.29, 0.30 and 0.30 respectively. It"s apparent that:
1) The score of 0.30 (which is pretty close to the overall average of 0.28 in our database) is a pretty good baseline necessary where we can argue that technical proficiency is met. Anything over or under by a significant amount should be carefully looked at contextually. We can start saying Good or Bad based on the 0.28-0.30 score.
2) Tupac just isn"t that good, technically speaking. He"s a notch below the Big 3 objectively speaking.
He had great energy on his tracks but to me his linear raps and weak rhyming make it too hard for me to ever really get into his work. Don"t shoot the messenger!"

https://rapmetrics.wordpress.com...

His rhmes were just generally weak and quite simple. People like Rakim, Kool G rap, Black Thoguht, Canibus, Eminem, Pharaohe Monch, Nas, Big Pun, Common, Mos Def, and so many more people are objectively more techncially proficient. I would love to see you challenge this simple fact and argue that pac is more tewhcncial than any of the rappers listed, and etc...

When it comes to flow it gets no better. Computer scientist Martin Connor over at Encyclopedia of Flow analyzed tupacs flow on “Changes”. He openly says that he loves tupac and that changes is possibly one of the greatest songs OAT. However when it came to flow even die hard tupac fan admitted that tupac’s flow is not the best or super great by any measure:

There doesn’t seem to be any plan to the pace of his rhymes. There is no acceleration or deceleration of phrases (shorter or longer sentences, or more or less of them), any discernable switch between a high number of rhymes and a low number of rhymes. There isn’t even any variation on the couplet structure, which would be somewhat laborious without 2pac’s delivery and strong message.

When you combine that uniformity of sentence structure with the predictable rhythme structure of being extremely couplet-heavy, you better understand what I’m trying to describe here – his unfinished, unpolished style.

Furthermore, he moves between different modes of rhyming without any sort of transition, and there doesn’t seem to be any overarching, guiding principle to how he’ll move from one rhyme to the next. That is, the pacing of his rhymes – how many he drops, and how intense they are in terms of length and placement – is all over the place, and either not very complex or too complex. For example, he starts off with a couplet and a single-syllable end rhyme

So tupacs flow was mediocre at times and average at best. Nothing special. Tupacs flow is also extremely repetative and outside maybe his first album its nearly always the same with little variation. Connor thinks that it is compensated with his delivery and message which to me are his only good strong points. Connor even says:
“But as I said before, I don’t think this reflects negatively on 2pac. This is because that style fits his aggressive message and delivery very well”

http://www.rapanalysis.com...

When it comes to flow tupac was far from the best, and people such as Pharaohe Monch, AZ, Biggie, Kool G rap, Eminem, Big Pun, Jay Z, method man, and etc... are much more refined and polished flows. Their flows are signifciantly more on point and have alot of range and variation.

Storytelling wise pac was a little better but I still can name probably 20+ artsit that are better than him in storytelling. His most popular storytelling song brendas got a baby has a good message and is a classic for sure however the lyrics are so simple, the flow is repetative, sonically it is boring tbh, and there is no real advanced storytelling skills or vivid imagery shown. A good example of a skilled storyteller is lupe fiasco when he says:

Floatin' down by his feet was the letter from his sister
Second grade handwriting simply read “I miss ya”
Suit jacket pocket held his baby daughter’s picture

Instead of just saying his younger sister put a letter in the casket near his feet he uses exqusite word choice and imagery by giving us backround in a unique way instead of simply stating blunt facts/thigns in the story like pac. His stories may have touched people, however if he was telling a story about going to the storie or something it would be unattractive. The content of his stories is what made his storytelling attractive, not neccesarily the storytelling skills themsleves. I like rappers who can have both intriguing stories and great storytelling skills and imagery. People love to say “pac was straight to the point”, but soemtimes it is more dull that way. So basically pac was again below average and at best decenet storyteller who relied a little to much on the content of his stories rather than focusing on the execution of the stories.
Comapre his storytelling to:
Kool G rap on Thug Love Story(the GOAT storytelling song)
Nas on rewind, Undying Love, and I Gave you power
Biggie on Niggas Bleed, I got a story to tell, adn Warning
Eminem on Stan, As the world turns, murder she wrote
Canibus on No Return, I honour U, and tariq
Common on I used to Love her, Testify, and Book of Life
Immortal technique on Dancing with the devil and You never know

and you will see how much of a simple storyteller he was. All of these storytelling songs contain more vivid imagery, intricate and intriguing plots, and more cinematic lyrics.

When it came yo quotables and punchlines I think its generally accepted that pac was not a punchline rapper and never aspired to be a punchline rapper. he didnt have any of the advanced wordpaly, witty/clever punchlines, and incredible double/triple entendres as Jay Z, Eminem, Lupe Fiasco, Big L, Fabolous, MF DOOM, Cassidy, Canibus, and Common. i would love for you to challenge me on that becuase any paac punchline you can name I can name a minimum of 10 punchlines off the top of my head from any of the artist I just listed that is far superior in depth, complexity, , and etc...

When it comes to the abiltiy to battle/diss, I consider any face to face battle experience, diss records, and freestyle abilities as part of this category. I happen to hold the unpopular opinion that pac's diss records (specifically his most hailed diss record Hit em up) were quite weak and relied on their contaggious hooks and production. Pac had weak shots, no depth, and didn't speak true facts. I dont have enough space to lay it all out however if you go to this thread and press control+F and search Productofrakim17 and go to the 2nd thing that mentions that term you will see my full blown evidence based resposne to why hit em up was one of the weakest diss records of all time, and would be taken serious without his screaming delviery, the hook, and the production:

http://genius.com...

Diss records such as: Ether, No Vaseline, 2nd Round KO, Takeover, the bitch in yoo, The ripper is back, and so many more I cna name are much better lyrically, in devestating shots, straught facts, flow, delviery, and etc...

In terms of originality he didnt bring anything new. the few things that he did which many considered unique stylistically was me and my Girlfriend (extended emtaphor for a gun) and Dear Mama (consdiered one of the frist rap songs dedicated to mothers starting a trend of it ). Other than that theres nothing which is ironic since MAMG was a concept taken from nas's IWW from I Gave you power and Commons IUTLH. And Dear mama was originally made by rapper kill kill in an udnerground west coast mixtape (that kill kill gave to tupac) a year before under the name Moma Dear:

https://www.youtube.com...

We can say with a certain amount of certiany given the circumstances that pac got the idea from this song. So pac was not very original, and other rappers such as Kool G rap, Rakim, Eminem, Redman, DMX, and etc.. were much more original and unique when they came out.

When it comes to dsicography his first 2 albums are considered quite poor with to mcu filler. AEOM had wayy to many songs, and many skippable and cringey songs, AEOM was alright, and T7DT was ok but a step down tbh. GFK, the roots, kool g rap, scarface, Common, DOOM, and etc... have more classics and much more consistent discog.

When you look at pac as a whole he was mediocre avergae to at best decent in nearly everything and was saved by his message and delivery. Thats it. Not wellrounded. not goat

Adam2isback

Pro

He is not top tier in any of them with the exception of socially conscious/content (even though his content was so hypocritical and often contradicted himself) , and delivery (which he is not the best at).
If you were talking about Ice-T, Troubleneck Brothers, Sister Souljah (to an extent), I would agree. Tupac, on the other hand lived the life. He never denied that he did things about crime. But he also had a lot of emotional pain that he had in him from lack of a father figure, which caused a vicious cycle that drove him to crime. He acknowledges that crime ain't good, and also his song called "Trapped" pretty much sums up everything about Tupac, about his vicious cycle he's trapped. "Sometime 2 die 4", a skit, further talks about it. It's not like Tupac takes pleasure in his acts.

Delivery
A lot of the rappers you mentioned are very desperate sounding at times. And you can add Tim Dog. Tupac's was rather natural in every single song he did. As to what you said about Biggie it's close, but Tupac still was superior. That's why his music was more popular than say Biggie Smalls. Tupac's music was more mainstream.

Quotables/punchlines
Plenty -- "If my homies call"
"Brenda Got a Baby"
"Holla if ya hear me"
"I get around"
"Dear mama"
"If my homies call"
"F$$k the world"

Ability to Battle/battle bars
That doesn't mean anything. No battle rapper has ever been considered top nier in rap.

Originality
He is quite original. He was not cliche at the time of his debut. He rapped about misery, pain, and didn't delve into the feel-good aspects of most hip hop at the time, such as gangsta rap and rapping about beating people. HE was quite poetic. And consistent in his belief.
"Brenda Got a Baby" is one, and Tupac intelligently talks about the problems in the projects. "Trapped" is another great song. "Violent" is a good piece of political music. In terms of being cliche, Ice-T, Troubleneck Bros., Jungle Bros., E-Bros., Sister Soulja, all rap about the same whiny stuff in comparison.

http://thoughtcatalog.com...
http://www.antiessays.com...
http://www.sputnikmusic.com...;
Debate Round No. 2
productofrakim

Con

Time for counter arguments which was for the 3rd round not the 2nd which my opponet didnt follow:
(bold is his argument)

Tupac, on the other hand lived the life. He never denied that he did things about crime. But he also had a lot of emotional pain that he had in him from lack of a father figure, which caused a vicious cycle that drove him to crime. He acknowledges that crime ain't good, and also his song called "Trapped" pretty much sums up everything about Tupac, about his vicious cycle he's trapped. "Sometime 2 die 4", a skit, further talks about it. It's not like Tupac takes pleasure in his acts.

This resposne to my minor side comment about tupac being a hypocrite is quite weird. Just because pac acknowldges a flawed system of oppression and to you doesnt "take pleasure in his acts" doesnt really change the fact of the hypocrisy in his music, which tbh was a very minor point that the majority of my case agaisnt tupac being the GOAT did not rely on.

Delivery
A lot of the rappers you mentioned are very desperate sounding at times. And you can add Tim Dog. Tupac's was rather natural in every single song he did. As to what you said about Biggie it's close, but Tupac still was superior. That's why his music was more popular than say Biggie Smalls. Tupac's music was more mainstream.

Instead of claiming that the rappers I named are desperate sounding and then naming Tim Dog (someone I did not mention, defend, or even lsiten to) as an example, why don't you show me rappers that I named whoch are desperate sounding. Here you also make an argument that is quite irrelevant to anything I said concerning delivery, and the category of delivery itself... You basically rationalive that since:
1. Tupac was more popular than biggie
2. Tupac is superior to biggie
Which is fasle since popularity is not a merit of skills or a better rapper. If thats the case then people like Jay Z, Eminem, and etc... are better than pac.
This is also irrelevant to delivery overalll and to top it off you ended with mentioning pac's msuci being more mainstream as if that were a relevant or valid point to anything let alone relevant/valid point concerning delivery....

Quotables/punchlines
Plenty -- "If my homies call"
"Brenda Got a Baby"
"Holla if ya hear me"
"I get around"
"Dear mama"
"F$$k the world"

I think your looking at the first part which is quotables and ignoring the 2nd part punchlines which i specifically challenged you saying:
"i would love for you to challenge me on that becuase any paac punchline you can name I can name a minimum of 10 punchlines off the top of my head from any of the artist I just listed that is far superior in depth, complexity, , and etc..."

None of the songs you named contain this, and pleasedon't just list songs; list the punchliens themsleves. What are the mind blowing punchlines/quotables on I get around and If my homie callls. If anything If my homie callls cotnains one of the worst opening lines and one of the cringiest lines OAT saying:

Ever since you was a pee-wee, down by my knee with a wee-wee

You have yet to show me complex, witty, and clever pac punchlines....

Ability to Battle/battle bars
That doesn't mean anything. No battle rapper has ever been considered top nier in rap.

If you read what i wrote i considered 3 things as possible factors for this 1. face to face battles, 2. battle/diss records, 3. freestyle capabiltiies. I set the standard and focused on #2 which pac is considered highly for.. You dismiss the entire category (not just the arguemtns) by saying no battle rappers are top tier. Not only is it irrelevant if no battlers are top tier, but it is false since eminem who started off battling in the rap olympics became one of the biggest and consdiered one of the best rappers to ever live. In fact it was eminem who got the battle culture super popualr and running...

So yet again no engagmnet in with my arguments in this category except a red herring and a false one at that.

Originality
He is quite original. He was not cliche at the time of his debut. He rapped about misery, pain, and didn't delve into the feel-good aspects of most hip hop at the time, such as gangsta rap and rapping about beating people.


To state his content and commentary about misery and pain from hid debut, as a reason fro his originality is quite laughable since on his debut Words of Wisdom (on of my favcorite pac songs OAT) at the end pac states other rappers and rap acts that have a simialr conscious mission as him lisiting ice Cube, Da lynch Mob, paris, Public Enemy, and KRS ONE. Not only did these rappers rap about the same type of cosncious things as pac on his debut, but they also did on albums released that year or the year before. Pac didnt invent emotional rap music or socially conscious rap music. People that pac acknowledges on his debut such as Public Enemey and KRS ONE did it long before pac.

It is also ironic that you say HE was quite poetic. And consistent in his belief, when the things you claimed made him original like avoiding "feel-good aspects of hip hop", gangsta rap, and rapping about beating people, is what he rapped about alot on later albums such as All eyez on me.... Making him not consistent on this. You have even named songs that demonstrate this such as I get around which is like the poster child song for feel-good hip hop. Pac also had alot gangsta songs and gansta personna in his career, jsut look at one of many examples on gangster party. So your argument falls apart completely.

You then provide 3 links. One of which is 5 life lessions learned from pac. I wouldn't care if tupac had the wisdom and followed the steps of jesus and gave a sermon on the mount that chnaged the world, it wouldnt make him the best rapper of all time. Some of the points listed were irrelevant to his music and focused more on his life... All of the points if all granted true and etc... would not make him the best rapper alive.... Because its irrelevant to actual rapping. Your next link was an essay about the life of tupac which I needed to pa and be a memebr to read the full thing.. And the last link was an album review for his post-humonous albums and the reviewer rated it a 1.5/5 labelling it "very poor".

I feel you are trolling hard lmao.

Either way you decided to make counter arguments in your opening argument agaisnt the rules/set up, and in those counter arguemnts you failed to actually counter my arguemnts concernign Delivery, Quotables/Punchlines, Ability to diss/battle, and originality. Using so many logical fallacies it's ridicolious. And you completely ignore my arguments concerning Technical lyrical ability, Flow, Storytelling, and Discography. Not only that but you failed to make your case for why tupac is the greatest rapper of all time, with the exception of half-assed counter arguments which actually ignore my arguments compeltely.
Adam2isback

Pro

LOL I concede. I can't really get through this.
You win bro :D
Debate Round No. 3
productofrakim

Con

I guess this is over. Kind of upset, I wanted a good debate
Debate Round No. 4
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by productofrakim 7 months ago
productofrakim
typo:

When it comes to discography his first 2 albums are considered quite poor with to much filler. AEOM had wayy to many songs, and many skippable and cringey songs. **MATW** was alright, and T7DT was ok but a step down tbh. GFK, the roots, kool g rap, scarface, Common, DOOM, and etc... have more classics and much more consistent discog.
Posted by productofrakim 7 months ago
productofrakim
BTW for the battle section, the forum I linked; make sure to press "load more responses" until you reach the top. You might miss my post about Hit em up that I reffered to.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 7 months ago
dsjpk5
productofrakimAdam2isbackTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Concession.