The Instigator
Curtispov11
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
rojogato19
Con (against)
Winning
30 Points

U.S. Immigration policy is too harsh on the southern border

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/18/2007 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,670 times Debate No: 664
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (11)

 

Curtispov11

Pro

I think that the United States government is too harsh on illegal immigrants. Our government says that the immigrants are free-loaders who come into our country, take our jobs, and reap our freedom. They look at the illegal immigrants in a dehumanizing way, saying that they should not have the same benefits that the rest of us have just because they were born south of the border.
rojogato19

Con

Wow...where do i begin?
first, one of the sole purposes of a government is to protect ITS citizens. A government cannot allow anyone and everyone in who wants in without going through the proper channels. This means that if an immigrant wants to become a citizen, there is a means of doing so, in which they will then recieve all the rights of a natural born citizen.

along with protection, it is necessary for a government to know who is coming into the country. Are you suggesting that we allow any and all to just walk across the border and call themselves a citizen? that would have been great for America during the cold war when soviet spies and sabatours could just walk right in and out to never be found again. This goes for terrorists today as well. Is it worth risking American's lives?

Illegal immagrants are breaking the law...PERIOD. besides that fact, should not an American wanting a job take precedence over that of an illegal?

Is it fair that illegals should be allowed to live in this country and reap all the benefits without paying taxes like everyone else?

Also, an increase in illegal immigration is directly proportional to an increase in crime. Besides the negative effects of that fact alone, this leads to a strain on government resources - police, jails, etc. which are paid for by taxes, which are bad enough, but lead to a strain on funding for other needed things.

And you think the US gov. is too tough? I say make it tougher, build a fence, do what is necessary to reduce illegal immigration.
Debate Round No. 1
Curtispov11

Pro

First of all, I want to make clear to anyone that is reading this that I NEVER ONCE SAID THAT THE U.S. SHOULD LET EVERYONE THAT WANTS TO COME IN INTO THE COUNTRY. I said simply that the U.S. government is too harsh on immigrants. PERIOD

But anyways, we are too harsh on them because we make it extremely difficult for them to become u.s. citizens. I'm curious...have you seen the test that they have to take to be legalized? I have (my mom is a French immigrant, and yes, she is legal) and they ask you questions that even you or me wouldn't be able to answer as being taught in an American school system. If educated people like you or me cannot answer these questions, how do we expect uneducated, poor, and non-English-speaking Hispanics to answer them correctly?

WE DON'T

The fact is that our government, democrats and republicans alike,(and most citizens) don't want these people in our country, so they make it extremely difficult to get in the country. Cause and effect, the immigrants come in ILLEGALLY,(so they don't have to suffer through the rigorous and irrational expectations of our government) and this gives people the chance to complain and say, "Hey, I don't want these illegals coming in, not paying taxes, reaping the benefits of our society, and stealing our jobs!"

This is a justifiable statement-I don't(I don't think anyone does) want anyone freeloading off of my hard work.
But it is our country's own fault that there are people doing things like this. If these same immigrants were legal,
-There would be more people paying taxes to the state and federal governments

-There would be more people = more demand = more jobs = more workers = more people living better lives

-There would be no need to spend billions of taxpayers' dollars into a giant fence that will do virtually nothing to stop the incoming of illegals anyways

Also you said that increase in illegal immigration is directly proportional to an increase in crime. Well technically, you are absolutely correct. But what you didn't take into consideration is how being an illegal immigrant affects your living conditions and monetary income.

Let me remind you that poverty is also directly proportional to an increase in crime.

Illegal immigrants come into the country to look for work. It is more difficult for them to find work because
-they are illegal(duh)

-they are uneducated

-they are a risk for their employer
Once they find a job,(which will no doubt be low paying, harsh, physical labor) they need a place to sleep. But, again, problems arise, for they are illegal and poor. So what do they do? They do what anyone would do-it's human nature. They find someone like them.
This leads to a concentration people of a certain race and background. This leads to ghettos.

Now, if they were legal, it would be much easier for them to find better paying jobs and places to live. So,
-They would be richer, and would not resort to crime as much

-Their legalization would strongly reduce the chance of the formation of ghettos

Also, if you say that it is wrong for them to come into our country, remember this.

YOU ARE AN IMMIGRANT TOO!!!!!

Your ancestors came into America just as abruptly and illegally as the illegal immigrants do today. I they could do it then, why is it such a big deal now?
rojogato19

Con

Let me begin by saying that it is a privilege to be allowed to become a citizen of this country - not a right. No government has to allow people in, and when the country in question is the wealthiest nation in the history of the world, the privilege of becoming a citizen has even greater worth.

As we have already established, it is necessary to have a process of legalizing immigrants rather than allowing all in, so here are reasons why the legalization process is difficult.

- the admitance test should be challenging. Im not at all saying it should be near impossible to pass, but it should require studying of the testable info. It is important that new citizens understand the history of this country and the basics of our government. Which is the basis for the next two points:

-This allows them to better contribute to society and the political process. This is another reason for the tediousness of the process. When there is a pool of billions who want in, those who become citizens should prove that they can and will contribute to society. The best way of doing this is to teach them many vital aspects of the US.

-Also, the more one knows about their new home, the more a "part" of it they feel, which leads to greater assimilation. Assimilation is vital to our country's survival (united we stand,devided we fall)- if new citizens dont become part of the American culture then it creates division and competition among groups (im not saying that immigrants should forget their native culture either).

-I want those who apply for citizenship to be scrutinized. Not just anyone should be allowed in. As i previously stated, it is a privilege. I dont want other country's criminals and others that will contribute to problems in our country. Also, this step of the process is even more critical post 9/11 for obvious reasons.

Yes, the process is long, tedious, and slow; and i concede that it is not perfect. But for many reasons it requires more than just a sign-in book to become a legal citizen.

A few quick notes on other comments you made:

I beleive that it should be mandatory for immigrants to speak and read english (at least enough to operate in society). Not being able to speak the country's primary language (basically im proposing english should be the national language) obviously leads to many problems.

The proposed fence is a double fence meaning a two fences with a patrolled space between (in addition to the patrolled US side). The design and proper implementation of the fence would be very effective and would make a difference.
Debate Round No. 2
Curtispov11

Pro

I am going to have to disagree with you when you said that being a citizen of this country is a privilege and not a right. As far as I am concerned (and as you should be too unless you are racist) all men (and women) are created equal. So why is it that because I am born within the boundaries of the U.S. that I get to benefit off of the wonderful freedoms that this country gives me, but someone who was born south of the border does not? If all men were truly created equal, shouldn't they be allowed to have what I have? If they are denied it as they are now, isn't that a sign of the country treating MANKIND, not illegals or immigrants or any other degrading term, but men who are supposed to be equal, unequally?

They have just as much of a right to be here as you and me do. what is so dehumanizing about closing off the border, is that we are excluding our brothers from the great opportunity and wealth that can be achieved just by living in this country.

One thing that bugs me about your arguments is that you look at the illegal immigrants as bad people. Well, here is a wake up call. THEY DON'T WANT TO TAKE AWAY YOUR FREEDOM. Is it so wrong for them to want a piece of the pie?

If you were in their shoes and you were poor with only a slum of a village to stay in, you would look at America and say, "that's where I want to be." If they won't take you legally, you'll go illegally. After all you have nothing to lose.

What happened to freedom?

Why is it that only a select few can be free?

Is it right to turn a cheek to the injustice in this world, and when the victims of injustice come knocking on our door, is it right not to free them?

The one problem with people in this country is that they have lost touch with reality. No more helping the ones who need it, only help yourself.

By the way, there are many other ways of getting to America... for example, they just found a huge tunnel, so even if the wall does some help, it won't do much. Where there's a will, there's a way
rojogato19

Con

Do you have locks on your doors? Do you allow anyone to just enter your house and do as they please? And if they come into your house does that make them part of your family? No. If a non-family member wants to come into your house they must first knock. If you determine that they wont do you harm, you may invite them in. If they want to become part of the family, you would want to know that they would contribute - do chores, etc. and actually become part of the family rather than just a roommate. You would want them to care about their new family name, your house, and all that goes along with it. So is it their right to come into your home and join your family, or a privilege?

Or do you not allow everyone into your home? Would you allow just anyone to become part of your family because you are wealthier than them? Based on your argument, this means that you see them as unequal to you if you answer no to these two questions.

So what if the immigrant is a serial killer or rapist? should we bring them in? Ok, so we dont let those people in...but how are we to know who comes in (or where to find them) if we have an open door?

Yes, i understand why they want to be here, and that doesnt make them bad people, but it doesnt change the fact that they are breaking the law.

but wait! HERE'S THE GOOD NEWS!!!!
Immigrants CAN become citizens, and they can be successful, rich, happy Americans. There is a process by which they can be naturalized, and that is a great thing for all. How many rags to riches stories have you heard of immigrants becoming Americans and being very successful?

In your arguments, you seem to suggest that it is near impossible for immigrants to become citizens of the US, but thousands of people do it every year. When national security, economics, and other issues are so greatly affected lowering the bar is NOT an option.

a few notes about some statements you made:
"By the way, there are many other ways of getting to America... for example, they just found a huge tunnel, so even if the wall does some help, it won't do much. Where there's a will, there's a way"

So people who want to break out of prison bad enough can find a way, that doesnt mean that we shouldnt do all we can to prevent it from happening (and for the record, no im not in any way implying that immigrants are comparable to inmates...dont even go there)

also, you say:
"when the victims of injustice come knocking on our door, is it right not to free them?"

based on this statement how the heck can you be against the war in Iraq? They were victims of great injustice (ruthless dictator, the murdered kurds, secret police, tortured civilians) So you cannot doubletalk and defend both...sorry for getting off topic but this is a whole different debate...
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by griffinisright 9 years ago
griffinisright
I like your point about someone breaking into your house on your last round rojogato19. Very down to earth and relative. Good debate!
Posted by Curtispov11 9 years ago
Curtispov11
congrats rojogato

thanks for the good debate!
Posted by FrontLineConservative 9 years ago
FrontLineConservative
Muy bien rojogato19! You did a much better job presenting your argument on illegal immigration than I did in my debate. My vote goes to you!
Posted by kels1123 9 years ago
kels1123
curtis pov, They arent being dehumanized by not having the same benefits , they are not supposed to be here , they are here illegally. If they were LEGAL immigrants then it would be different. Why should someone that is breaking the law and snuck into our country be able to get benefits equal to legal immigrants and American citizens???????
Posted by Caye 9 years ago
Caye
I am on the side of Con so please don't come back calling me a racist. I live in Arizona and know walking into a store I will hear Spanish being the majority speakers. I'm tired of it....I hire a contractor to do major work for me and I get illegal's coming to do the job. I end up with a bathtub with no way of putting water in and a shower that did not have the cold water hooked up so their solution was to turn my hot water tank down to 93...nice shower but then the dish washer tanked so I thought..bought new one then that one was the same so they checked the tank and found the water was not sanitary enough...Called the contractor and of course he's not available. I know that we can not send back 20 million people...Honestly our economy would tank but we need the fence to stop more from coming in. My solution would be to enforce a foreign national ID card not to be used for driving, voting, but for identification only. Use the DMV office..give them the chance to come in on their own...prove they have a job and taxes are being deducted which by the way I would like to know how they do that without a SS number. Check for warrants out for their arrest, how many receive benefits and document each. And the ones that can't prove employment then send them to build the fence....Put up an immigration office at each state border and if workers are needed then the employers provide shelter and food to the workers and when the work is done then they must return. No one can get employment without an ID card..no one could get benenfits of any kind without that Id card...and that ID card would have a number assigned so taxes would then be deducted.. Social Security and Medicare would be deducted and they could only benefit if they would become a National Citizen with the test and oath taken in English. Thus a solution to influx of money into those two broken benefits...with us benefiting being paid back for what we have already paid out. No more space.
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Vote Placed by jjagger 9 years ago
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