The Instigator
TyJack11x
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Normerican
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

U.S.A was stronger then the USSR during WW2 (1944)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/11/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 362 times Debate No: 84871
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
Votes (0)

 

TyJack11x

Pro

The U.S.A was easily the strongest of all factions involved, let alone the USSR.
Rules: Round 1 Acceptance
Round 2-4 Argument
Round 5 Conclusion
No Forfeiting
This will be mostly a comparison of Industrial Capacity, Military Strength, equipment, and Doctrine, please use sources, and Good Luck!!
Normerican

Con

I will accept the debate to challenge that the United States was in fact not stronger than the USSR during World War II. In this debate, I will provide strategies the USSR used, economy of the USSR, Industrialization, Military. I will challenge my opponent to provide sources, as I too, will provide sources.

I request that my opponent goes first with his arguments.
Debate Round No. 1
TyJack11x

Pro

Alright, thanks for accepting! Before I begin I beg that you do not forfeit any rounds as that always is a downer but anyway...

The U.S was easily the strongest nation of all countries during the year of 1944. Why? You may ask, well it is because of:

1. The American home land is resource rich producing territory, only America was the true mass-producer of WWII. The U.S. was able to produce 1.8 Billion tons of Aluminum during the year of 1943, in which production then reached its max during march of 1944. Also producing steel at over 80 million tons, 1.2 Billion tons of refined copper, and 600 thousand Long tons of rubber, all during the year of 1944, just to name a few resources. See source 1.

2. Now on to aircraft the United States produced 96,318 aircraft of various types during 1944, while the Russians "only" produced 40,300, there were instances of Soviet pilots and U.S. pilots mistaking each other for Germans and engaging in aerial battle (see https://en.wikipedia.org...), losses where pretty much equal therefore it would be a war of attrition in which the one with greater numbers would be favored. But that is not taking into effect the fact that soviet Yaks lost performance at altitudes above 15,000 feet, in which P-38 Mustangs Excelled. And to loose air superiority is devastating, demonstrated by the Germans on the western front. See source 2.

3. The Soviet Union needed Lend-Lease or else it would not have been so successful. The U.S. supplied millions of tons of equipment to the Soviets throughout the war, an end to lend lease would have meant an end to Stalin.

4. The best way we can compare the American fighting man to the Soviet is by comparing German feats against its two enemies. Germans were able to wrestle control of the air to support operations on the eastern front, while American air superiority was overwhelming and permanent. A German Division combat ability was 20-30% more effective than divisions on the Western Front, while being 50% more effective on the Eastern Front. See source 3.

Sources:

http://ibiblio.org...

http://www.nationalww2museum.org...

http://ww2-weapons.com...
Normerican

Con

My opponent has provided very strong arguments to show how the industrial capacity and production in the United States were to the USSR's in the United States. I heavily disagree and even counter-argue that the industrial capacity of the United States was too big for it's own good, in fact hurting the country. To achieve this, I will go forth and rebuttal each of my opponents arguments in the order he presented them.

1 & 2. My opponent states that the United States had a much greater mass production rate than any other country during World War II, especially the Soviet Union or USSR. My opponent then provides statistics of plane weaponry and resource materials. While there's no denying the high amounts of production by the United States; the argument provokes the question on how much that production actually costs?

When the United States entered World War II, it went 3 years with spending less than 16% of GDP and federal spending for defenses and production. In two years this jumped to an alarming 36%. The Soviet Union spent only about 190$ Billion for wartime, while the United States spent nearly 300$ Billion in wartime.

Furthermore, bigger is not always better. A lot of the airships and tanks made by the USSR were much more tactical and successful in stealth, mobility, and overall functioning. The USSR already had a Rocket Program before the Manhattan project was launched.

3. While the Russians no doubt could have used the assistance of the United States with the Lend Lease, it certainly wasn't necessary. The Russians economy simply needed production help. The locomotives and aircrafts provided were transportational help, but since Russia was practically slaughtering German invasion without any assistance, it is safe to say that without support to Russia; it still would be plausible that the war would turn out how it did. The aid to Britian and France were much more essential due to the much weaker Britian and France army.

4. I am not sure what my opponent is comparing. How German combat worked against the west compared to the East? I would like my opponent to clarify this more so I can give a more clear argument.

Sources:

http://www.macrotrends.net...
https://en.wikipedia.org...
https://www.quora.com...
https://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 2
TyJack11x

Pro

Very interesting, and good points.

"While there's no denying the high amounts of production by the United States; the argument provokes the question on how much that production actually costs?"

After the war the U.S. had a period of economic prosperity lasting until the 1970s. Creating a large, well educated middle class, and raising the standard of living for the country. Which a higher level of average wages levitates the governments taxes helping to fill their coffers. See source 1.

"A lot of the airships and tanks made by the USSR were much more tactical and successful in stealth, mobility, and overall functioning."

In air combat whoever holds altitude holds the advantage, that's how U.S planes worked high altitude escorts and strategic bombers. The Soviets believed in the other end of the spectrum. When the first allied bombs fell on Moscow and more importantly the industry east of the Urals many Soviet planes would be diverted to intercepting American escort fighters, in an environment where the soviets had no business being in. But the U.S. had a very capable Tactical Air Fleet (Seven Ton Milk Jug anyone?) Not to mention it's just over a 2:1 ratio. The VVS would be outclassed in this "doctrinal vacuum".

"While the Russians no doubt could have used the assistance of the United States with the Lend Lease, it certainly wasn't necessary."

According to Wiki, American Lend-Lease to the USSR amounted to $11 billion in materials: over 400,000 jeeps and trucks; 12,000 armored vehicles, 11,400 aircraft, and 1.75 million tons of food. (https://en.wikipedia.org...)

"but since Russia was practically slaughtering German invasion without any assistance"

The Soviets had an estimated 8,800,000- 10,700,000 combat deaths.(2) The Germans had about 4,000,000, I believe it was actually the Germans slaughtering the Soviets.(3)

" I am not sure what my opponent is comparing."

I am comparing the average fighting power, for example this statistic is referring to the Germans capability to take no less than seven Russian Divisions of comparable size when the Germans were on the defensive.

Sources

(https://en.wikipedia.org...)

(http://www.nationalww2museum.org...)

(https://en.wikipedia.org...(World_War_II)#Casualties)
Normerican

Con

While there's plenty of arguments regarding the nations strengths and weaknesses. I find this argument too specific to find a good case against, or for the con. To specifically claim that the United States was stronger than the USSR in a specific year is hard to find credible sources against this statement when it's commonly accepted for this.

While I wish it weren't true, I find no contradiction or valid counter arguments that really mean anything in this debate. Say it ain't so, but this is an official forfeiture of the debate. I see no leads for the con's argument, and thus request this debate be cancelled and removed.

I would like to sincerely thank the opponent for taking the time to debate this, and sincerely apologize to that opponent for there is not enough credible evidence to make a claim against the debate.

Once again, thank you for your time. This is an official forfeiture, and should either be a cancelled debate or an automatic win by the opponent.
Debate Round No. 3
TyJack11x

Pro

Alright, well good debate! And thanks for trying.
Normerican

Con

Normerican forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
TyJack11x

Pro

TyJack11x forfeited this round.
Normerican

Con

Normerican forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by TyJack11x 1 year ago
TyJack11x
Ok, your go.
Posted by Normerican 1 year ago
Normerican
Your Move.
Posted by TyJack11x 1 year ago
TyJack11x
Thank you! Good luck. By the way I put P-38 Mustang instead of P-51 Mustang, sorry.
Posted by Normerican 1 year ago
Normerican
Very strong arguments pro! I'll be looking forward to this debate.
No votes have been placed for this debate.